Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[sweetsunray]

On 2/14/2020 at 7:57 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Ramsay doesn’t “think” he’s Reek, he made him into his “new” Reek.

The Jeyne Poole storyline of the books isn’t really very tied to Sansa OR Arya, so “giving the rape subplot” to either of them makes just as little sense.

To both "agreed".

To @tscchope

First of all, the Reek that is killed off-page in aCoK wasn't the first Reek anyway. Roose tells Theon that Ramsay has had various Reeks, the first one naturally having a bad smell that despite bathing so often and even drinking cologne didn't help. This Reek was sent to Ramsay while he was still living with his mom. After the first Reek died in unknown circumstances, Ramsay remade any other servant into a Reek, forcing them to live in circumstances that would make them stinky.

Ramsay is with his latest Reek when pursued by Rodrik Cassel. They were raping a girl, and he convinced that Reek to switch clothes with him, before Cassel caught them. The real Reek was killed, with Cassel believing him to be Ramsay and Ramsay was arrested and taken to Winterfell as Reek. Ramsay-Reek then served Theon, using Theon's biggest weaknesses to manipulate him into doing the worst stuff - kill the millers family; pretend the millers' boys are dead Bran and Rickin; then Ramsay-Reek kills the Ironborn who know who the dead children truly are, for which Theon accuses and frames the kennel master. And then when Theon gets taken captive in the end and is dragged to the Dreadfort, he gradually transforms Theon into his latest and newest Reek.

While Jeyne Poole is forced into an arc pretending to be Arya, and this ties her to Arya, it is not Arya's arc. Arya was never the one to end up or remain in a captured situation with people recognizing her as Arya. The what-if-scenario doesn't even work with Arya, for neither LF, nor Roose (and we know he had her within his grasp unwittingly once) could ever keep her their captive. Even Jon rightfully questions how long Ramsay could manage to stay alive if Arya was his bride. The sole what-if scenarios that work for Arya are her parallalling characters such as Farman, or Alysanne, or Arianne, or Asha, or Meera, Nymeria, Arianne's sandsnake cousin journeying to Storm's End. These are all Arya-types that George uses to explore various alternative story possibilities that he has other characters play out for Arya, so that Arya doesn't even will have their stories.

 

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, it's not great literature, but it is good fun.

Conan or the Witcher?

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Conan or the Witcher?

 

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Conan or the Witcher?

The Witcher.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

The Witcher.

I know I found that type of fantasy boring after a while even in the Wheel of Time. The Witcher series as a show became boring shlock when the witch turns herself into a beautiful woman. Only the episode with the witcher at the feast with the queen and the groom appearing for her daughter was okay. I honestly cannot laugh at the bard's forced jokes. Meh, I'd rather rewatch Xena the warrior princess.

[Angel Eyes]

So a question I've been wondering and posted questions about in the past: Why was Jon so grossed out over having sex with Daenerys because she was his aunt? Haven't the Starks committed incest in the past, like Cregan Stark's sons marrying their nieces? Or Ned Stark's parents being cousins?

[sweetsunray]

As to GOT - yeah, after season 8 barely anything of the series withstands the dread of rewatching anything, even in my head.

I started to binge watch the series before S4 was aired, and I bought the books after having seen S2, caught up with aSoS by the end of S4. Reading the books was sometimes very confusing, because a lot of plots were quite different, and George's were subtler, so that some clues went over my head, because I kept expecting some series events to happen.

In retrospect only S1 survives as being watchable, and the whole changing of plots and characterization from S2 onwards is blatantly this showing off actors.

When I watched S2 the first time, I hadn't read the books yet, but I remember I loved Arya's arc in the show. Then I read her aCoK arc and ended up feeling absolutely robbed. It seems to make "streamline" sense to have the Mountain attack Yoren, instead of later after Arya escaped Amory's clutches, and to give the Mountain a "motive" to attack them (Gendry), but when I think of it now, remembering that the show washed Cersei's hands of the murders of the bastards, it makes no sense to portray the Mountain as Jofrey's dog requiring an excuse to do anything. And sure, the Mountain had his men torture people willy nilly in the books, but none of them were stupid to want to kill a valuable apprentice armorer. Nope, this streamlining was not done to "streamline" but to make Charles Dance the smart one. They robbed Arya from her escape of Amory, her using Jaquen to free the Northern prisoner and her independent escape of Roose.

I remember S2 confusing me when it came to Robb's battles, but while much of it goes on off-page, it's not nearly as confusing in the books, because Roose and Robb are split up. In S2 all we know is that Robb faces some forces of Lannisters somewhere and beats them, but for some weird reason Tywin remains at Harrenhal. Robb's war in the show was just a background setting where Richard Madden could fall in love with a field nurse. The books make Robb's motives far more clear as well as Tywin's, even when both are off page.

Also S2 made me reluctant about reading Jon's arc beyond Craster's as well as Dany's arc in Qarth. The show made both arcs irritating and imo even boring. I couldn't stand Dany with her demanding and threatening attitude in Qarth, Ygritte annoyed me. Qhorin was mischaracterized, even if you hadn't read the books and Jon killing him some interspersed haphazard spur of the moment fight without gravitas. I don't consider Dany's chapters in Qarth the most exciting, except from tHotU onwards, but when it comes to court intrigue and behind-the-screens-politics they are actually a good match to King's Landing politics in aGoT. And while she may have unrealistic expectations from the Qartheen, she doesn't go promising their destruction at every "no" either. They wrote that Qarth arc for spectacle and so that Emilia Clark could make a ruthless face and spout angry threats, and while I do believe George planted dark seeds in Dany's arc once she aims to persuade Drogo to invade Westeros and she was wrong to burn MMD, I think D&D wronged Dany severely in their warped Qartheen arc by making her sound like an entitled brat. Meanwhile the "turncloak" arc for Jon north of the Wall is less exciting than it is in the books, and already makes him look like a bumbling fool who doesn't know what's going on.

I don't think Tyrion's show arc is "writing for Dinklage". They stripped him of his darker side even in S1. No gloating over Masha Heddle being hanged. No mocking of Alisser Thorn. No poisoning of Cersei. No capture of Tommen (so that they can have the emotional scene of Cersei nearly poisoning her children) or that dangerous and distrusting plan to bust Jaime out, but instead it's just Jaime's own plan by killing his own cousin. Nope, Tyrion was kept squeaky clean, only having to outwit Cersei (which isn't hard to do) and have a romantic arc with a Shae who loves him and cares for Sansa, because they wanted to give Dinklage and the actress who played Shae a romantic story that fell flat on its arse when Shae suddenly had to revert to her book character during and after Tyrion's trial, and they eventually had to have Dontos whom they introduced in S2 premier save Sansa after all, without him doing anything in between.

As a character Cersei really is less interesting in the show, often portrayed as only acting in self-defense out of protective love for her children, and putting the blame on Ned Stark for Robert's death. While Cersei's motive is partially fear, she's also far more cunning and dangerous and pro-active in the books. In the show it's Joffrey who has the bastards killed, not Cersei. She's not dressed in hunter green, riding boots and brown cloak when meeting Ned (aka either on her way to meet Lancel or just having returned). She had a dark-haired baby who died in the show, and thus never aborted any of Robert's children. She betrayed Robert only because Robert still loved Lyanna. And it's not feminist at all. No matter what vicious woman Cersei was, no matter how much she betrayed her marriage vows before marrying Robert, she never deserved to be raped or beaten by him. It's why I like Ned - no matter how much he suspects Cersei of being involved in the assassination attempt of his son or Jon Arryn, he recognizes that Robert shouldn't treat Cersei the way he does.

Anyway, the writing on the wall was present as far as S2.

[Angel Eyes]

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As to GOT - yeah, after season 8 barely anything of the series withstands the dread of rewatching anything, even in my head.

I started to binge watch the series before S4 was aired, and I bought the books after having seen S2, caught up with aSoS by the end of S4. Reading the books was sometimes very confusing, because a lot of plots were quite different, and George's were subtler, so that some clues went over my head, because I kept expecting some series events to happen.

In retrospect only S1 survives as being watchable, and the whole changing of plots and characterization from S2 onwards is blatantly this showing off actors.

When I watched S2 the first time, I hadn't read the books yet, but I remember I loved Arya's arc in the show. Then I read her aCoK arc and ended up feeling absolutely robbed. It seems to make "streamline" sense to have the Mountain attack Yoren, instead of later after Arya escaped Amory's clutches, and to give the Mountain a "motive" to attack them (Gendry), but when I think of it now, remembering that the show washed Cersei's hands of the murders of the bastards, it makes no sense to portray the Mountain as Jofrey's dog requiring an excuse to do anything. And sure, the Mountain had his men torture people willy nilly in the books, but none of them were stupid to want to kill a valuable apprentice armorer. Nope, this streamlining was not done to "streamline" but to make Charles Dance the smart one. They robbed Arya from her escape of Amory, her using Jaquen to free the Northern prisoner and her independent escape of Roose.

I remember S2 confusing me when it came to Robb's battles, but while much of it goes on off-page, it's not nearly as confusing in the books, because Roose and Robb are split up. In S2 all we know is that Robb faces some forces of Lannisters somewhere and beats them, but for some weird reason Tywin remains at Harrenhal. Robb's war in the show was just a background setting where Richard Madden could fall in love with a field nurse. The books make Robb's motives far more clear as well as Tywin's, even when both are off page.

Also S2 made me reluctant about reading Jon's arc beyond Craster's as well as Dany's arc in Qarth. The show made both arcs irritating and imo even boring. I couldn't stand Dany with her demanding and threatening attitude in Qarth, Ygritte annoyed me. Qhorin was mischaracterized, even if you hadn't read the books and Jon killing him some interspersed haphazard spur of the moment fight without gravitas. I don't consider Dany's chapters in Qarth the most exciting, except from tHotU onwards, but when it comes to court intrigue and behind-the-screens-politics they are actually a good match to King's Landing politics in aGoT. And while she may have unrealistic expectations from the Qartheen, she doesn't go promising their destruction at every "no" either. They wrote that Qarth arc for spectacle and so that Emilia Clark could make a ruthless face and spout angry threats, and while I do believe George planted dark seeds in Dany's arc once she aims to persuade Drogo to invade Westeros and she was wrong to burn MMD, I think D&D wronged Dany severely in their warped Qartheen arc by making her sound like an entitled brat. Meanwhile the "turncloak" arc for Jon north of the Wall is less exciting than it is in the books, and already makes him look like a bumbling fool who doesn't know what's going on.

I don't think Tyrion's show arc is "writing for Dinklage". They stripped him of his darker side even in S1. No gloating over Masha Heddle being hanged. No mocking of Alisser Thorn. No poisoning of Cersei. No capture of Tommen (so that they can have the emotional scene of Cersei nearly poisoning her children) or that dangerous and distrusting plan to bust Jaime out, but instead it's just Jaime's own plan by killing his own cousin. Nope, Tyrion was kept squeaky clean, only having to outwit Cersei (which isn't hard to do) and have a romantic arc with a Shae who loves him and cares for Sansa, because they wanted to give Dinklage and the actress who played Shae a romantic story that fell flat on its arse when Shae suddenly had to revert to her book character during and after Tyrion's trial, and they eventually had to have Dontos whom they introduced in S2 premier save Sansa after all, without him doing anything in between.

As a character Cersei really is less interesting in the show, often portrayed as only acting in self-defense out of protective love for her children, and putting the blame on Ned Stark for Robert's death. While Cersei's motive is partially fear, she's also far more cunning and dangerous and pro-active in the books. In the show it's Joffrey who has the bastards killed, not Cersei. She's not dressed in hunter green, riding boots and brown cloak when meeting Ned (aka either on her way to meet Lancel or just having returned). She had a dark-haired baby who died in the show, and thus never aborted any of Robert's children. She betrayed Robert only because Robert still loved Lyanna. And it's not feminist at all. No matter what vicious woman Cersei was, no matter how much she betrayed her marriage vows before marrying Robert, she never deserved to be raped or beaten by him. It's why I like Ned - no matter how much he suspects Cersei of being involved in the assassination attempt of his son or Jon Arryn, he recognizes that Robert shouldn't treat Cersei the way he does.

Anyway, the writing on the wall was present as far as S2.

Well, you know that Daenerys’ Qarth arc is bad when her actress makes fun of it... for a very long gag. Where’s my [insert X]?!

As far as Peter Dinklage is concerned, I’m convinced that he could have pulled off the darker Tyrion seen in the books (Having seen him as the well-intentioned but malevolent Bolivar Trask in X-Men Days of Future Past), it’s just not what D&D decided. On the other hand, I’m surprised that D&D never put that part about poisoning Cersei with a laxative in. Thought they’d like that sort of humor.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, you know that Daenerys’ Qarth arc is bad when her actress makes fun of it... for a very long gag.Where’s my [insert X]?!

Oh, but Emilia has a great sense of humor when it comes to the weird decisions they make for Dany. Perhaps they thought they were writing the Qartheen arc for Harry Lloyd to show his acting muscles.

8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as Peter Dinklage is concerned, I’m convinced that he could have pulled off the darker Tyrion seen in the books (Having seen him as the well-intentioned but malevolent Bolivar Trask in X-Men Days of Future Past), it’s just not what D&D decided. On the other hand, I’m surprised that D&D never put that part about poisoning Cersei with a laxative in. Thought they’d like that sort of humor.

Yeah. Dinklage certainly could have pulled off darker Tyrion. That's why their "writing to show off the actor" doesn't fully apply on what they wrote for Tyrion. They certainly seemed to have an interest to write him as the innocent one.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Angel Eyes]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh, but Emilia has a great sense of humor when it comes to the weird decisions they make for Dany. Perhaps they thought they were writing the Qartheen arc for Harry Lloyd to show his acting muscles.

Yeah. Dinklage certainly could have pulled off darker Tyrion. That's why their "writing to show off the actor" doesn't fully apply on what they wrote for Tyrion. They certainly seemed to have an interest to write him as the innocent one.

‘Cept that they poured a pot of gold on his head. Not like it wasn’t fun.

13 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I have an entire lecture panel on this; medieval attitude about gender & sexuality.  And a major subsection on that, in my graduate-level textbooks, was on "definition of incest" - why? because they changed over time.  Legally.  In one century it was okay to marry your third cousin, but in another century it was not.  ties into that "the definition of marriage changed over time"

I wroteup a lot of this into the Wiki of Ice & Fire page on "Gender & Sexuality" a while back, actually.
 

But the point is that there were established legal definitions and limits of what constituted "incest", which changed over time.  in the real middle ages, while it changed over time, it was *generally* okay to marry up to your third cousin (but not your fourth).  TVtrope has a whole page on this, but in Europe and Japan in the modern day, it's actually not forbidden to marry your first or second cousin.

In Westeros, it explicitly is not "incest" to marry your own first cousin.  Apparently they DO consider it incest to marry aunt to nephew, when they describe Valyrian custom.

>>>>>>The Starks who married their uncles actually married their HALF-uncles, which is a key distinction; even in real life, definitions of incest hinged on if you were half-sibling related or not.  Leonidas of Sparta himself was married to Gorgo, his own half-niece.  Ancient historians explicitly point out that the Spartans did not consider half-uncle marriage incest, though they did consider full-uncle marriage to be incest.

short answer: the TV show screwed up by never actually discussing any of this out in dialogue but then acting like it was a motivating factor

I guess what I mean is from an in-universe perspective. And I guess it’s perfectly okay for uncles to marry their nieces in ASOIAF? I mean, Maegor marrying Rhaena and Daemon marrying Rhaenyra. Plus Arnolf Karstark’s attempts to marry his great-niece Alys to his son Cregan, who is probably a Bluebeard.

 

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[SeanF]

Dany in Qarth was certainly a poor plot line. They made Dany a badass, until she became Satan/Hitler, while removing most of her warmth, humour, and self-criticism.  IIRC, Linda says Qarth is where the show started to die.

Tyrion's character was butchered beyond belief, precisely because D & D made him their self-insert.

Stannis, Ellaria, Jaime, what were they thinking?

Sansa was turned into Cersei 2.0.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Dany in Qarth was certainly a poor plot line. They made Dany a badass, until she became Satan/Hitler, while removing most of her warmth, humour, and self-criticism.  IIRC, Linda says Qarth is where the show started to die.

I hated it before reading aCoK. And since the time I read it, I hate it even more. No matter where you believe Dany's coin will fall, George wrote her superbly and with depth and her POV in such a manner that you naturally feel her rage, her frustrations and the betrayals she perceives.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion's character was butchered beyond belief, precisely because D & D made him their self-insert.

Stannis, Ellaria, Jaime, what were they thinking?

Sansa was turned into Cersei 2.0.

Every character was destroyed, no matter whether they were fans of the actor/actrice/character or hated the character/actor, main or side character.

[Cas Stark]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I hated it before reading aCoK. And since the time I read it, I hate it even more. No matter where you believe Dany's coin will fall, George wrote her superbly and with depth and her POV in such a manner that you naturally feel her rage, her frustrations and the betrayals she perceives.

Every character was destroyed, no matter whether they were fans of the actor/actrice/character or hated the character/actor, main or side character.

Yes, that was their genius, able to ruin characters that they hated and that they liked, truly a unique gift.  The only ones who got out relatively unscathed were those who died between 1-4, Tywin, Ned, Cat, Lysa, Robb, Robert all died before full destruction could occur.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, that was their genius, able to ruin characters that they hated and that they liked, truly a unique gift.  The only ones who got out relatively unscathed were those who died between 1-4, Tywin, Ned, Cat, Lysa, Robb, Robert all died before full destruction could occur.

Don't forget Joffrey.

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, that was their genius, able to ruin characters that they hated and that they liked, truly a unique gift.  

I'm starting to think they understood absolutely nothing of certain characters, to a point that we hadn't even imagined. I believe they're only interested in the characters they think they can understand immediately: very gendered girls, smart mates who get drunk and make jokes, devious, sadists villains, etc. Clichés.

People like Stannis or Doran Martell are beyond their capacity to understand, so they're perceived as boring, there was no way they could be portrayed decently.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I'm starting to think they understood absolutely nothing of certain characters, to a point that we hadn't even imagined. I believe they're only interested in the characters they think they can understand immediately: very gendered girls, smart mates who get drunk and make jokes, devious, sadists villains, etc. Clichés.

People like Stannis or Doran Martell are beyond their capacity to understand, so they're perceived as boring, there was no way they could be portrayed decently.

I agree wholeheartedly. But one of several problems - or part of their “genius” *cough cough*, as @Cas Stark said - is that they managed to butcher beyond recognition even the characters they do like! It’s truly an awesome and amazing gift.

[Cas Stark]

19 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I'm starting to think they understood absolutely nothing of certain characters, to a point that we hadn't even imagined. I believe they're only interested in the characters they think they can understand immediately: very gendered girls, smart mates who get drunk and make jokes, devious, sadists villains, etc. Clichés.

People like Stannis or Doran Martell are beyond their capacity to understand, so they're perceived as boring, there was no way they could be portrayed decently.

I agree.  And here is where not having the rest of the books really hurt them, because obviously they need things SPELLED OUT, in black and white to even have a hope of capturing the surface of the characterization or theme. 

Look no further than Arya, where they loved both the character and the actress and yet, they seemed to not understand her story at all, and anyone who says that her killing the NK was in line with her story is totally full of s***, but that aside, they didn't seem to get any of her actual drives and values, which is why the ending felt so 'off'...the girl who has wanted to get back to her family, have a family, create a family unit since the the very beginning..finally is reunited with her family which is victorious,  and she fucks off in a ship for no stated reason.  That isn't to say her ending may not be the same in the books that will never be written, but the books will show and explain how she would come to have felt so alienated that she would leave Westeros for parts unknown, the showrunners have no understanding or ability to create that connective tissue in the story.  And again , the reason the early seasons were better is because those explanations and that connective tissue was embedded within the story, so it was there even when they didn't know it, even when they were simply shooting 'what happened' the themes and characterization would still come through.  Once they went off GRRM script, there was nothing to save them from themselves: prurient, exploitative hacks who would not recognize a theme if it was tattood on someones head.

End Rant.