Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Angel Eyes]

On 4/6/2020 at 9:38 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yep. I feel like people are often really hard on Robb (book-Robb, that is), without considering all the contributing factors. Robb didn't name himself king; his bannerman did. He never ignored Catelyn, he just couldn't do everything she asked him to because he had a hundred other people to please.

Well, I don't necessarily fault him for becoming King, I fault him for losing sight of his goal of trying to rescue his sisters. What do you think would have happened if Meryn Trant hit Sansa too hard in the head after one of Robb's victories, she suffers bleeding on the brain and died?

The best way for D&D to have stifled the criticism over the Ramsay Sansa marriage would have been for Sansa to find someone who she loved and be happy in a marriage, maybe someone like Podrick or Jon.

[Ghostlydragon]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I don’t necessarily fault him for becoming King, I fault him for losing sight of his goal of trying to rescue his sisters. What do you think would have happened if Meryn Trant hit Sansa too hard in the head after one of Robb’s victories, she suffers bleeding on the brain and died?

The best way for D&D to have stifled the criticism over the Ramsay Sansa marriage would have been for Sansa to find someone who she loved and be happy in a marriage, maybe someone like Podrick or Jon.

Or have Edd survive and move to the North to be with her. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed something there between them at the dinner scene in Castle Black in season 6.

[Le Cygne]

Or, like, him (a long detailed story in the books, the author put a calendar picture of them as Beauty and the Beast up in his office, and another on his website):

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

They gave them a scene during the hook up episode, that's probably a stand in for {insert book story here if we hadn't screwed both characters over out of sheer spite}.

They hated Sansa because she rejected their self-insert, Tyrion. So she lost her story. So consensual sex for aged up Tommen, Missandei, Pod, Arya: Yep. Sansa: Nope.

That's not the story GRRM is writing, no damn way. He said he had no idea what they were doing with her story, and damned if anyone else can make sense of what they did, either. 

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Or, like, him (a long detailed story in the books, the author put a calendar picture of them as Beauty and the Beast up in his office, and another on his website):

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

They gave them a scene during the hook up episode, that's probably a stand in for {insert book story here if we hadn't screwed both characters over out of sheer spite}.

They hated Sansa because she rejected their self-insert, Tyrion. So she lost her story. So consensual sex for aged up Tommen, Missandei, Pod, Arya: Yep. Sansa: Nope.

That's not the story GRRM is writing, no damn way. He said he had no idea what they were doing with her story, and damned if anyone else can make sense of what they did, either.

Missandei.

Oh Gods!  D & D commented "at least she got some dick" before she was murdered.  Yes, they were sticking two fingers up at us.

[Le Cygne]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Missandei.

Oh Gods!  D & D commented "at least she got some dick" before she was murdered.  Yes, they were sticking two fingers up at us.

They sure were. They must have been talking about themselves. Everything was always about themselves.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Out of the two of them, Benioff definitely has more of a "Hollywood sleaze" feel to him than Weiss does, complete with the C-list actress wife. (I'm sorry. For all I know, Amanda P. might be a nice lady. But still. . . C-list. And then there are all those creepy photos of her trying to stick her tongue down Pedro Pascal's throat, which doesn't help).

1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Or have Edd survive and move to the North to be with her. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed something there between them at the dinner scene in Castle Black in season 6.

Sansa had chemistry with everyone: Jon, Theon, Pod, Edd. But, alas, she's a Strong Independent Woman Who Don't Need No Man.

I was honestly stunned that they included a scene between Sansa and the Hound in Season 8, since they had been pretty determined to erase that relationship from show. I always felt like Sandor's line about how he "hates gingers" was supposed to be D&D giving book fans the middle finger. (Then again, that was the wight hunt episode, so I guess the joke was on them).

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Missandei.

Oh Gods!  D & D commented "at least she got some dick" before she was murdered.  Yes, they were sticking two fingers up at us.

Talking of Missandei... HBO had a GoT marathon last week and I sort of watched bits I hadn’t seen before, including the wight hunt which should go down in television history as one of the dumbest, most laughable and stupid scenes ever. But I digress... the episode before she’s killed Missandei says they’re all very peaceful in Naath. And her very next scene she’s like, “Dracarys!” It’s a small enough thing, but as w/ everything else just silly and dumb. 

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Talking of Missandei... HBO had a GoT marathon last week and I sort of watched bits I hadn’t seen before, including the wight hunt which should go down in television history as one of the dumbest, most laughable and stupid scenes ever. But I digress... the episode before she’s killed Missandei says they’re all very peaceful in Naath. And her very next scene she’s like, “Dracarys!” It’s a small enough thing, but as w/ everything else just silly and dumb. 

By the end, they were trying to portray Missandei as a villain, or the dupe of a villain, who got what she deserved.

Quite a lot of Sansa enthusiasts were gloating over her death.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

By the end, they were trying to portray Missandei as a villain, or the dupe of a villain, who got what she deserved.

Quite a lot of Sansa enthusiasts were gloating over her death.

 

I didn't see it that way at all. If anything, Missandei's death seemed to be a) symbolic of the loss of "innocence," and therefore solidifying Cersei's villainy, and b) pretty much the only person left to kill that would push Dany over the edge.

I don't recall any Sansa fans having much to say about Missandei's death, but to be fair, I don't go on tumblr. Tumblr is even worse than Twitter.

[Le Cygne]

On 4/7/2020 at 3:09 PM, SeanF said:

By the end, they were trying to portray Missandei as a villain, or the dupe of a villain, who got what she deserved.

Quite a lot of Sansa enthusiasts were gloating over her death.

Yeah, because she was loyal to Her Satanic Majesty. For that matter, Jon was a villain, too. He was loyal to Dany even as he let a Lannister talk him into murdering her like a chump.

Tyrion should have been a villain since he loved Dany, too. She didn't do him like she did Jon, though. Missandei never did Tyrion, either. Or Sansa. Yes they honored him. But it was not enough.

So the message is: Do Tyrion or bad things happen to you. If you love Dany and don't kill her, you die. If you love her and kill her, then you get to play with your dog or open brothels.

Here's Tyrion's line: "I know you love her. I love her too. Not as successfully as you."

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I didn't see it that way at all. If anything, Missandei's death seemed to be a) symbolic of the loss of "innocence," and therefore solidifying Cersei's villainy, and b) pretty much the only person left to kill that would push Dany over the edge.

I don't recall any Sansa fans having much to say about Missandei's death, but to be fair, I don't go on tumblr. Tumblr is even worse than Twitter.

 

10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, because she was loyal to Her Satanic Majesty. For that matter, Jon was a villain, too. He was loyal to Dany even as he let a Lannister talk him into murdering her like a chump.

Tyrion should have been a villain since he loved Dany, too. She didn't do him like she did Jon, though. Missandei never did Tyrion, either. Or Sansa. Yet they honored him. But it was not enough.

So the message is: Do Tyrion or bad things happen to you. If you love Dany and don't kill her, you die. If you love her and kill her, then you get to play with your dog or open brothels.

Some stans (of any character) can get absurdly partisan on social media

I think D & D wanted to portray Missandei as being at least very gullible to have defended Daenerys in the crypt, in response to Sansa bad-mouthing her.  And demanding cruel revenge for her own death, at the end, was meant to make her unsympathetic.

[SeanF]

Another thing I couldn't stand about Season 8 (and to an extent earlier seasons) were the absurd military strategies and tactics:-

1. Stationing the Golden Company outside the city where they could easily be killed

2. Sending light cavalry charging against the army of the Dead

3. Stationing catapults outside the walls of Winterfell

4. Sansa failing to notify Jon about friendly cavalry before the Battle of the Bastards (admittedly, a more sinister explanation is possible).

5. Tyrion's daft strategies that got half of Dany's allies killed

6. Kinda forgetting about the Iron Fleet, days after having discussed it.

7.  Not so much absurd as sinister, the belief that starving the inhabitants of Kings Landing was the humane alternative to taking the city by storm.

[Le Cygne]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Some stans (of any character) can get absurdly partisan on social media

I think D & D wanted to portray Missandei as being at least very gullible to have defended Daenerys in the crypt, in response to Sansa bad-mouthing her.  And demanding cruel revenge for her own death, at the end, was meant to make her unsympathetic.

Those are reasonable observations. My answer was making fun of them because...

It's clear they never gave anything much thought at all, the show is sloppy and stupid. Why should we attribute rhyme or reason to nonsense, and that's what the show was.

If you try to reason it out for a particular scene, well, the very next scene, they'd do the opposite, and say something that would throw any reasonable assumption out the window.

Benioff/Weiss said Sansa is "just like Littlefinger" a gazillion times right through to the end. They even had her honor him after he was dead (in his own way he loved me). BARF.

So who is the villain. That was my point. The show is complete nonsense.

Everyone from the one who insulted his penis in the books (Sansa) to Team Dany (Dany, Jon, Missandei, Jorah, even Daario) praised Tyrion. Tyrion screwed them all over.

The best thing I can come up with is they set out to make a show about how wonderful they themselves are via Tyrion, their self-insert. They did not succeed.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Those are reasonable observations. My answer was making fun of them because...

It's clear they never gave anything much thought at all, the show is sloppy and stupid. Why should we attribute rhyme or reason to nonsense, and that's what the show was.

If you try to reason it out for a particular scene, well, the very next scene, they'd do the opposite, and say something that would throw any reasonable assumption out the window.

Benioff/Weiss said Sansa is "just like Littlefinger" a gazillion times right through to the end. They even had her honor him after he was dead (in his own way he loved me). BARF.

So who is the villain. That was my point. The show is complete nonsense.

Everyone from the one who insulted his penis in the books (Sansa) to Team Dany (Dany, Jon, Missandei, Jorah, even Daario) praised Tyrion. Tyrion screwed them all over.

The best thing I can come up with is they set out to make a show about how wonderful they themselves are via Tyrion, their self-insert. They did not succeed.

I suppose Tyrion was them.  Male, upper class, inept, and grossly over-promoted.

[Ghostlydragon]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose Tyrion was them.  Male, upper class, inept, and grossly over-promoted.

Don't forget believing himself to be far smarter than he really is with the need to keep telling that to others.

[Le Cygne]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose Tyrion was them.  Male, upper class, inept, and grossly over-promoted.

Nastiness toward women, too. They turned him into a saint on the show, then filled the show with their own nastiness.

[The Bard of Banefort]

In retrospect, it's absurd that Dany didn't demote Tyrion and make Jorah her Hand. He was the only one who ever gave her any actual sane advice.

[Mystical]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In retrospect, it's absurd that Dany didn't demote Tyrion and make Jorah her Hand. He was the only one who ever gave her any actual sane advice.

In retrospect, it never made sense that she made Tyrion her hand in the first place. They meet and one day later is the attack of the Harpy in the arena and Dany takes off with Drogon. She comes back a few weeks later and her city is under siege.

Hand of the Queen!!!

.........what?

[Le Cygne]

Benioff/Weiss just had to spare their self-insert the indignity of this, St. Tyrion went straight to the chair of honor without doing anything to earn it, which is what he Benioff/Weiss deserve.

I saw a slender girl with silvery hair wrapped in a tokar, he might have told them. Her face was veiled, and I never got close enough for a good look. I was riding on a pig. Daenerys Targaryen had been seated in the owner's box beside her Ghiscari king, but Tyrion's eyes had been drawn to the knight in the white-and-gold arm or behind her. Though his features were concealed, the dwarf would have known Barristan Selmy anywhere. Illyrio was right about that much, at least, he remembered thinking. Will Selmy know me, though? And what will he do if he does?

Just like when they had the sex slave beg him to have sex for free instead of this. They think desperate women pretending to like having sex with men like Tyrion is funny (hence Tyrion and Bronn's "funny" brothel scene at the end).

“Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.”... Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me... His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. The whore cried out in distress... She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.

Show changed him murdering Shae in cold blood after kidnapping her, hitting her, not paying her, and placing her in mortal danger to self-defense. Because she was jealous, and had became much stronger than him suddenly.

St. Tyrion was the perfect gentleman to Sansa unlike the books. That's what GRRM could have done if he wanted him to come off as a gentleman, but GRRM had him tell her to undress and grope her, then say damn her for not bending the knee.

And of course, Sansa insulted his penis, so what was their fix? They gave him the best penis in Westeros, a "magic cock"! And took away Sansa's own story, and never let her be with a man she would truly choose to be with. Punished for rejecting him.

They also took away that he gloated about what he did to the Vale. And Masha Heddle. And much more.

Reading this stuff again, it's so striking that 1) GRRM has Tyrion doing these horrible things to multiple women as a series long pattern, one after the other and 2) every time, Tyrion is so self-absorbed, it's all about him. He blames the women.

And of course, that the show just wiped it all out, often changing it to the complete opposite, then rewarded him in the end. But the whole time, they doused the show with their own misogyny, including the "funny" brothel scene at the end.

And TWOW:

Spoiler

He almost kills Penny (and he's still making it all about himself):

My giant of Lannister, he heard. She is mocking me. He almost slapped her again. His head was pounding.

“I never meant to make you angry,” Penny said “Forgive me. I’m frightened, is all.” She touched his hand.

Tyrion wrenched away from her. “I’m frightened.” Those were the same words Shae had used. Her eyes were big as eggs, and I swallowed every bit of it. I knew what she was. I told Bronn to find a woman for me and he brought me Shae. His hands curled into fists, and Shae’s face swam before him, grinning. Then the chain was tightening about her throat, the golden hands digging deep into her flesh as her own hands fluttered against his face with all the force of butterflies. If he’d had a chain to hand… if he’d had a crossbow, a dagger, anything, he would have… he might have… he…

 

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Benioff/Weiss just had to spare their self-insert the indignity of this, St. Tyrion went straight to the chair of honor without doing anything to earn it, which is what he Benioff/Weiss deserve.

I saw a slender girl with silvery hair wrapped in a tokar, he might have told them. Her face was veiled, and I never got close enough for a good look. I was riding on a pig. Daenerys Targaryen had been seated in the owner's box beside her Ghiscari king, but Tyrion's eyes had been drawn to the knight in the white-and-gold arm or behind her. Though his features were concealed, the dwarf would have known Barristan Selmy anywhere. Illyrio was right about that much, at least, he remembered thinking. Will Selmy know me, though? And what will he do if he does?

Just like when they had the sex slave beg him to have sex for free instead of this. They think desperate women pretending to like having sex with men like Tyrion is funny (hence Tyrion and Bronn's "funny" brothel scene at the end).

“Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.”... Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me... His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. The whore cried out in distress... She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.

Show changed him murdering Shae in cold blood after kidnapping her, hitting her, not paying her, and placing her in mortal danger to self-defense. Because she was jealous, and had became much stronger than him suddenly.

St. Tyrion was the perfect gentleman to Sansa unlike the books. That's what GRRM could have done if he wanted him to come off as a gentleman, but GRRM had him tell her to undress and grope her, then say damn her for not bending the knee.

And of course, Sansa insulted his penis, so what was their fix? They gave him the best penis in Westeros, a "magic cock"! And took away Sansa's own story, and never let her be with a man she would truly choose to be with. Punished for rejecting him.

Reading this stuff again, it's so striking that 1) GRRM has Tyrion doing these horrible things to multiple women as a series long pattern, one after the other and 2) every time, Tyrion is so self-absorbed, it's all about him. He blames the women.

And of course, that the show just wiped it all out, often changing it to the complete opposite, then rewarded him in the end. But the whole time, they doused the show with their own misogyny, including the "funny" brothel scene at the end.

And TWOW:

  Hide contents

He almost kills Penny (and he's still making it all about himself):

My giant of Lannister, he heard. She is mocking me. He almost slapped her again. His head was pounding.

“I never meant to make you angry,” Penny said “Forgive me. I’m frightened, is all.” She touched his hand.

Tyrion wrenched away from her. “I’m frightened.” Those were the same words Shae had used. Her eyes were big as eggs, and I swallowed every bit of it. I knew what she was. I told Bronn to find a woman for me and he brought me Shae. His hands curled into fists, and Shae’s face swam before him, grinning. Then the chain was tightening about her throat, the golden hands digging deep into her flesh as her own hands fluttered against his face with all the force of butterflies. If he’d had a chain to hand… if he’d had a crossbow, a dagger, anything, he would have… he might have… he…

 

You have to wonder just what Benioff & Weiss are like as people.