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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Having Bran kill the NK while it wouldn't have had the hell yeah!! rapturous response from the audience, would at least make some sense, we might have gotten SOME DIALOGUE to explain the Night King and his plan/desires and then Bran can shank him, it's not as satisfying as the ninja tomboy doing it, but it would be more realistic given the story they've been telling.

I am still shocked that they totally gutted Jon Snow's entire story, making him useless to the very end and obliterating the importance of his heritage and all the prophecies the show had included.

Let's not forget that Littlefinger is more of a hero than Dany at this point!

Littlefinger gave the Valyrian steel dagger back to the Starks and Arya killed the Night King. Meanwhile, the Wall would still be intact if Dany hadn't got Viserion killed beyond the Wall. 

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Posted (edited)

Crap, forgot,

Why did Branbot suddenly show the slightest bit of humanity and empathy right before Theon's big moment?  Really?  THAT'S who you choose to be human to?  I mean, yeah, OK, it anchored the scene a bit right before Theon does the only move anybody seems to have when it comes to battle in this show, full uncoordinated run to attack and get killed, it was out of character for the current non-character that Bran has become.

I'm sure I'll think of more later, but that really stuck in my craw.

Edited by Dragons Are Real
Accidentally hit post.

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Posted (edited)

Another article:

This isn’t new: If we can say anything true about Game of Thrones in its off-book phase, it’s that the show is great at dramatic beats within an episode that collapse when you try to integrate them into the story as a whole. It’s a thrill, for example, when Sansa and Arya kill Littlefinger! Never mind the extent to which the show actively misled you in earlier episodes (even showing the two sisters in a private confrontation Littlefinger couldn’t possibly have witnessed that’s both shot and scored like horror)...

It’s true, too, that the expected difficult choices—the kind that would have consummated old arcs and recent schisms—didn’t really materialize. There was never a moment when the revelation that Dany and Jon are both claimants to the Iron Throne had legible effects on the battlefield—no moment of tension or risk to their fighting partnership. (There was some staring while dragon riding, but the show has used staring too sloppily for us to infer what the stares mean.) And while Jon’s choice not to aid a besieged Samwell Tarly was heartbreaking—he has to get to Bran—it’s also true that Sam didn’t die (oddly) and Jon didn’t get to Bran...

To be honest, there’s enough like this in the show—stuff it seems you’re supposed to “forget” because you’ll spot inconsistencies otherwise—that it’s tough to tell when you’re not supposed to charitably succumb to fan amnesia on Game of Thrones’ behalf. (I admit I laughed the first time I heard Bran say that the Night King wanted to destroy memory, since the show so often requires that you suppress your own!)

But the Night King. Man. For years it has been implied that his presence looming over Game of Thrones was about so much more than court intrigue: that we were going to be made to feel and understand the depths of that original trauma from all those thousands of years ago when the Children of the Forest drove a dagger into the heart of a First Man—to fight off the First Men who were cutting down their sacred trees. Their decision to create a superweapon, the way it backfired, the tragic story of how that metastasized into a principle of natural revenge that would wipe out whole landscapes and delete humanity, or at least its memory—all this cast into relief just how petty and small the show’s plots over who’s in charge had always been. The Night King didn’t seem like a traditional villain or even a Lucifer figure, someone mad he didn’t get the power he wanted and fell. He seemed like an argument about history—long history, epic history, natural history—mattering. In combining nature’s rage and human vengefulness, he seemed like an extraordinary hybrid principle equipped to better speak to our own times, when climate change seems poised to make our own catchphrase “Summer Is Coming.” For years, he seemed like a symbol the present could actually use, a shorthand for our need to transcend political infighting in the name of uniting around something bigger, more urgent.

This wasn’t a wacky reading. G.R.R. Martin talked about the comparison himself last year. But good news! The solution to climate change is to stab it in the torso.

I can’t quite believe the ending to that story was this dumb. The conspiracy theorist in me insists that there must be a twist coming. But in lieu of any deeper explanation of what this struggle has been over—or any real confrontation between Bran and the Night King, the two poles around which this whole mess has been oscillating—we got that smirk. Nothing is more petty or annoyingly human than a smirk. Smirks are the purview of Bargain Bad Guys, not civilization-ending forces. Once the Night King shattered, his high-stakes history, which viewers of this series have been dying to finally learn, was erased. Maybe the Night King won after all.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-battle-night-king-huh.html

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

This episode was D-A-R-K. It is my personal opinion that great action pieces are better when you can tell what is going on... My issue with this episode was that as I was watching, I was repeatedly saying to my cat, "That wasn't very smart."...

Someone who really wanted all the Dothraki to die obviously planned that first part of the battle... With so many soldiers at their disposal, sending in the Dothraki by themselves is like when a bunch of goons attack Jackie Chan, but do it one at a time like morons. Maybe this whole thing wasn't so well-thought-out. Why would you put your catapults at the front of the line where they will become useless once the front line breaks (not to mention they only got off one shot each)? Why not dig some more of those fire trenches or set the walls of Winterfell on fire? Why not, I don't know, blast through the wights while they were standing still outside the fire trench? Why not use the dragons A LOT MORE? In addition to dealing with the darkness and choppy editing, you don't really want the distraction of questioning the positions of trebuchets when watching what's supposed to be the greatest battle ever to hit the TV. (I was really hung up on the catapults and trebuchets for some reason.)...

The major deaths in "The Long Night" did happen, and so many of them were... pedestrian... Even the Night King — spoiler, he died — exploded into ice cubes from a stabbin'. It was Downton Stabby up in here...

That set up the grand finale, the heavyweight matchup between the two weirdest weirdos on the show, Bran The Three-Eyed Raven and the Night King, because the Night King wants the Three-Eyed Raven dead because he, uhhh, because the... errr. It will be the conclusion of the Night King's plan to... hmmm. What even is going on here? Who is the Three-Eyed Raven? Where did the Night King really come from? Why does the Night King need him dead? Who are the Children of the Forest and the First Men? Who knows? Only George R.R. Martin that one night he was drunk and came up with all of this, but trust me it was (probably) IMPORTANT.

Then this happened, because why not? The Night King exploded, the White Walkers turned into shaved ice, the wights all fell down, and Viserion collapsed. That was it! The Night King, the deadliest threat to mankind and TV's great metaphor for climate change, was defeated by a teenage girl and a stabbin'! We still don't really understand the White Walkers' motives, what they really wanted to do, or how they worked. But they were BAD, and that's all I need to know. These eight seasons of complex mythology led up to a stabbin'. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, and though 99 percent of the human defenders died, all of the major characters miraculously survived even though every scene they were in they were getting piled on by the army of the undead. What are the odds?

https://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-photo-recap-the-long-night-battle-of-winterfell/

Edited by Le Cygne

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Having Bran kill the NK while it wouldn't have had the hell yeah!! rapturous response from the audience, would at least make some sense, we might have gotten SOME DIALOGUE to explain the Night King and his plan/desires and then Bran can shank him, it's not as satisfying as the ninja tomboy doing it, but it would be more realistic given the story they've been telling.

I am still shocked that they totally gutted Jon Snow's entire story, making him useless to the very end and obliterating the importance of his heritage and all the prophecies the show had included.

I think both jon's and bran's and even the NK's story was completly ruined. All 3 of them did nothing lol

Why have we been told time and time again that bran is important? What was the use of jon going to danny? Her dothriaki were killed within seconds, she gave a dragon to the NK and in the final battle her dragons spent more time lost in the fog that actually doing anything. Why build all the tension between jon and the NK? They end up always running away from each other… why all the talk about the prince/ss that was promised over several seasons if they just ignore it? Why build the NK as something amazing if he dies in his first real battle without we ever leaning anything about him besides that the cotf made him? What was the use of talking about r+l=j before the battle? annoy jon and danny?

Even if they wanted to surprise people with an out of nowhere kill I don t understand how they don t give jon, bran and danny their epic moment where they hurt the NK and contribute for his defeat… For gods sake they didn t even let jon kill viseryon… If lyanna can kill a giant when she is so hurt I don t know why jon didn t kill the dragon...

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

I think both jon's and bran's and even the NK's story was completly ruined. All 3 of them did nothing lol

Why have we been told time and time again that bran is important? What was the use of jon going to danny? Her dothriaki were killed within seconds, she gave a dragon to the NK and in the final battle her dragons spent more time lost in the fog that actually doing anything. Why build all the tension between jon and the NK? They end up always running away from each other… why all the talk about the prince/ss that was promised over several seasons if they just ignore it? Why build the NK as something amazing if he dies in his first real battle without we ever leaning anything about him besides that the cotf made him? What was the use of talking about r+l=j before the battle? annoy jon and danny?

Even if they wanted to surprise people with an out of nowhere kill I don t understand how they don t give jon, bran and danny their epic moment where they hurt the NK and contribute for his defeat… For gods sake they didn t even let jon kill viseryon… If lyanna can kill a giant when she is so hurt I don t know why jon didn t kill the dragon...

Agree.  Jon and the NK/WW story definitely trashed.  Bran has been a nothing story since he got to the cave, and his visions didn't end up helping anyone outside of using him as bait.  Dany going North, also useless.  The WW was always going to be difficult to resolve in the show, but they defaulted to the absolute most cliche and dumbass way possible, a big battle in a single night and the big bad is killed by a surprise killer.  They really should have gone to Marvel and not Star Wars, because their cartoonish, cliche mentality fits perfect for actual cartoons brought to the screen.

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

They really should have gone to Marvel and not Star Wars, because their cartoonish, cliche mentality fits perfect for actual cartoons brought to the screen.

Come now, Marvel has done a decent job of keeping a consistent story with believable characters going for over ten years at this point.  These two would ruin that the second they stepped in.  

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21 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

You know I love Book-Dany but this aint her. She very much cares about the lives of her people in the books but on HBO she dgaf about them seems like.

Ok question for the Forum.  What was Bran doing the entire episode? How was he helping? They showed 20 seconds of him warging a raven And.That. Was. It.....please tell me what he was doing that whole time?

I'm hoping after all of Bran's useless Raven Reconnaissance he was off in the ether doing SOMETHING to protect Ghost.  Not that we'll ever find out. 

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18 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Come now, Marvel has done a decent job of keeping a consistent story with believable characters going for over ten years at this point.  These two would ruin that the second they stepped in.  

They were hired for star wars for a reason...

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4 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm hoping after all of Bran's useless Raven Reconnaissance he was off in the ether doing SOMETHING to protect Ghost.  Not that we'll ever find out. 

The best idea I have seen so far is that he warged the ravens so that they could grab arya and drop her on top of the NK. Great use of ravens and arya's size!

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1 minute ago, divica said:

They were hired for star wars for a reason...

Bombast and battle awesomes over plot and character?  Check and check.

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20 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

4 women in my office just walked over to my desk and we had a 20 minute Rant about how stupid that episode was and this season in general is just ruining the whole series for them, they asked me if it was worth it to read the books----lol that's a big "fuck yes! Def read the books!"

Mainly everyone agrees that while it was 'cool' for Arya to kill the NK, it just made no sense.

They were yelling "What is the point of Jon!?!" which I completely agree with, he has no purpose.

 

why did the show have Missandei point out that the prophecy could refer to a man or a woman?........oh D&D dont mean to say that Arya is TptwP do they?  cuz I can't deal with that

I am encouraged by the women in your office.  Thanks for sharing that. 

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That would ruin the “OMFG did you see that, so badass!!!” moment, and those moments are GoT’s sole purpose. It’s sad, but it’s the truth. That’s why every single character arc and plot line feels so disjointed. 

Someone should tell them that disjointed asspulls are not great twists, only cheap cheats that only talentless “writers” use. 

Yup, so Arya The Magic Flying Squirrel (It pains me to say that, as she was my first fav in the books, and Maisie is a terrific Arya, and could have been so much more if they had play Arya instead of adding everyone with serious body counts and or deeds to their names), is supposed to be a 3 year ass pull as opposed to the one season asspull that Arya vs Sansa were in season 7.  I'm not sure if believe the Ds, I know they are bad, I know they confuse ha, ha, you didn't see that coming because I didn't lay out the story for it with real complexity, but I'm not sure.  This three year IDEA of Arya as AA and Everyone Else doesn't have the opposite ground work laid for the trick.  Then again, I guess I should be thankful were were spared the three year equivalent of Arya/Sansa snark fest from season 7. 

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

OMG, I've never read about any of the actors dissing the show! This is awesome!

I can't believe I've never read this thread before. You guys are a hoot. :rofl:

Speaking of wasting talent; I can't image what Peter Dinklage thinks.

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I don't know where to start, but most of everything has been covered. The stuff that's the worst and what I've not seen mentioned...

There's no reason at all to discuss character. We had 2 episodes where an attempt to return to character-centric writing was made, but enter D&D where everything and everyone is plot device to be thrown under the bus at any given moment to prop up the rest because they don't understand the concept of a character being x without another there to demonstrate the opposite.

This really, really bugs for some reason and I've not seen it mentioned, but the Starks apparently build their crypts out of soggy cardboard that can be torn out by a skeleton only a few more years from being ash. There should have never been a concern about resurrected dead from anyone who's ever seen a stone crypt in real life. No one's getting out of that. 

Agree so much with those who say that Arya's skills are unearned. Anyone who's ever leaned a sport, dance or anything physical knows it takes long-term devotion to even approach this. But apparently anyone can come by it in 10 Easy Lessons. Lessons which weren't taught to anyone else in Westeros despite there being time. Concurrently, they highlight how Jaime isn't the fighter he used to be despite already knowing the skills, acquired over a lifetime, just because it's his off-hand. He shoulda talked to Arya. I was willing to overlook this as I thought it would amount to nothing more than D&D's teenage, self-indulgent sensibilities, but they turned THE plot point and theme of the entire series on this. 

Theme. The world is effing scary right now, GoT is referenced all over the news, in politics, and even by The Cheeto. And GRRM's message about the Game being a distraction from what is most important is replaced by Cersei was right even about nationalism, to stock up on your WMDs, armies, and most importantly, don't forget the assassins! But it's all ok, because the good guys will always have enough plot armor to win the day and the whole point is to get back to the Game ASAP. Because that was what was always most important. Damned apocalypse just got in the way. And the southerners will probably never believe it ever happened. If I was GRRM, I'd be beyond fuming red. 

USELESS PEOPLE & D&D's 80s/90s feminism which holds that the only way for a women to be valuable is to be a manly man which is really some seriously messed up misogyny. 

And wait, remember these? Ha ha, just trolling. 

 

Oh and remember all of the run-around about what could be so awful that Arya would be that terrified? It was just D&D deciding to turn GoT into TWD and Arya was jacked to be a damsel in distress to make her badass moment even more badass. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlR4PJn8b8I

 

But maybe I should thank D&D. I'm tired of being attached to this series, and this might well have killed it all. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know where to start, but most of everything has been covered. The stuff that's the worst and what I've not seen mentioned...

There's no reason at all to discuss character. We had 2 episodes where an attempt to return to character-centric writing was made, but enter D&D where everything and everyone is plot device to be thrown under the bus at any given moment to prop up the rest because they don't understand the concept of a character being x without another there to demonstrate the opposite.

This really, really bugs for some reason and I've not seen it mentioned, but the Starks apparently build their crypts out of soggy cardboard that can be torn out by a skeleton only a few more years from being ash. There should have never been a concern about resurrected dead from anyone who's ever seen a stone crypt in real life. No one's getting out of that. 

Agree so much with those who say that Arya's skills are unearned. Anyone who's ever leaned a sport, dance or anything physical knows it takes long-term devotion to even approach this. But apparently anyone can come by it in 10 Easy Lessons. Lessons which weren't taught to anyone else in Westeros despite there being time. Concurrently, they highlight how Jaime isn't the fighter he used to be despite already knowing the skills, acquired over a lifetime, just because it's his off-hand. He shoulda talked to Arya. I was willing to overlook this as I thought it would amount to nothing more than D&D's teenage, self-indulgent sensibilities, but they turned THE plot point and theme of the entire series on this. 

Theme. The world is effing scary right now, GoT is referenced all over the news, in politics, and even by The Cheeto. And GRRM's message about the Game being a distraction from what is most important is replaced by Cersei was right even about nationalism, to stock up on your WMDs, armies, and most importantly, don't forget the assassins! But it's all ok, because the good guys will always have enough plot armor to win the day and the whole point is to get back to the Game ASAP. Because that was what was always most important. Damned apocalypse just got in the way. And the southerners will probably never believe it ever happened. If I was GRRM, I'd be beyond fuming red. 

USELESS PEOPLE & D&D's 80s/90s feminism which holds that the only way for a women to be valuable is to be a manly man which is really some seriously messed up misogyny. 

And wait, remember these? Ha ha, just trolling. 

 

Oh and remember all of the run-around about what could be so awful that Arya would be that terrified? It was just D&D deciding to turn GoT into TWD and Arya was jacked to be a damsel in distress to make her badass moment even more badass. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlR4PJn8b8I

 

But maybe I should thank D&D. I'm tired of being attached to this series, and this might well have killed it all. 

 

There are already a lot of Twitter takes about it being sexist to question Arya's power level. Like, no, this just doesn't make sense for her arc since she has only known about the Walkers for 4 months, and she had a hard time not being detected by wights -- then rushes past the Walkers who don't stop her when she stabs the Night King.

Oh, and people are using her assassin training to explain why she is so great... the assassin training that she failed, after she got stabbed 6 times, backflipped into muddy water and was fine. :P There are some who are even saying that being Tywin's cupbearer and Sandor's hostage was part of her "training to face off the NK"

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34 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I am encouraged by the women in your office.  Thanks for sharing that. 

Yup, so Arya The Magic Flying Squirrel (It pains me to say that, as she was my first fav in the books, and Maisie is a terrific Arya, and could have been so much more if they had play Arya instead of adding everyone with serious body counts and or deeds to their names), is supposed to be a 3 year ass pull as opposed to the one season asspull that Arya vs Sansa were in season 7.  I'm not sure if believe the Ds, I know they are bad, I know they confuse ha, ha, you didn't see that coming because I didn't lay out the story for it with real complexity, but I'm not sure.  This three year IDEA of Arya as AA and Everyone Else doesn't have the opposite ground work laid for the trick.  Then again, I guess I should be thankful were were spared the three year equivalent of Arya/Sansa snark fest from season 7. 

I have, I thought, a limitless appetite for Arya badass scenes, and while it was a nice badass moment for the badass tomboy, it was, I am sorry to say, too far out of left field.  Twists have to be earned or they're stupid.  You have to look back in hindsight and say, okay, I can see where that came from, but here it isn't possible unless you ignore huge parts of the past seasons and the story.  It is even more crazy if its true they were 'planning' on this for three seasons, and laid not one iota of groundwork, they must be among the worst planners in the world.  

And, what does that say for Arya's story?  Her entire purpose was, in fact, not to regain her humanity, to give up no one and return to Arya Stark, but it actually was to train to be an assassin so she can assassinate the VIP of VIPs on the show.  So, just like Cersei, being rewarded for her betrayal, it turns out, Arya's time with a death cult was exactly what was needed. 

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19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Really, showrunners? REAAALLLY???

  • “Big as hounds,” sighed showrunner Dan Weiss when EW asked about the ice spiders. “Didn’t we talk about that for 30 seconds? ‘Ice spiders’ sounds good. It would look good on a metal album cover. But once they start moving, what does an ice spider look like? Probably doesn’t look great.”

    It’s actually very difficult to realistically render extra large versions of existing creatures. In some respects, it’s easier to create a creature that doesn’t exist — like dragons — because viewers don’t automatically compare what they’re seeing to a familiar real-life version. That’s one reason we haven’t seen more direwolves on the show as there’s something a bit off-feeling about a super-sized wolf strutting around (sorry, Ghost).

    We did, however, get a dragon-on-dragon ariel battle, plus zombie, giant and direwolf action, so it wasn’t as if the episode wasn’t teaming with supernatural creature epicness. https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/29/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-where-are-the-ice-spiders/

Wow, that ALMOST takes the Arrogant Award from Benioff.  Good try, Little Danny, good try. 

ETA:  Yeah, I'm still trying to catch up, can ya tell?  LOL 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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42 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I am encouraged by the women in your office.  Thanks for sharing that. 

Yup, so Arya The Magic Flying Squirrel (It pains me to say that, as she was my first fav in the books, and Maisie is a terrific Arya, and could have been so much more if they had play Arya instead of adding everyone with serious body counts and or deeds to their names), is supposed to be a 3 year ass pull as opposed to the one season asspull that Arya vs Sansa were in season 7.  I'm not sure if believe the Ds, I know they are bad, I know they confuse ha, ha, you didn't see that coming because I didn't lay out the story for it with real complexity, but I'm not sure.  This three year IDEA of Arya as AA and Everyone Else doesn't have the opposite ground work laid for the trick.  Then again, I guess I should be thankful were were spared the three year equivalent of Arya/Sansa snark fest from season 7. 

They knew that arya would kill the NK for 3 years… Then how can they explain arya's reaction about the ww in ep 2? She was all arrogant and overconfident about wanting to meet the dead… And then she kills the most badass of the dead! What kind of build up and mensage is this?

I find it an awful story arc!

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The most realistic reaction from the cast was Kit's. 

He literally says in the BTS video that he was pissed, because he thought it should be Jon the one to kill NK, and he's not wrong tho lol

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22 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

As someone that does a lot of writing himself, and does copious amounts of note taking and plot-threading before getting into the nitty-gritty of the story, I'd be curious to see if the Ds even have a basic character bible, or any sort of notes about plot and character dynamics, of they literally just go, "fuck it, put this stupid shit here and light it up.  Let's get this over with."

I think they may start with an intention of making each of the actions you mention mean something at some point down the line, but they forget what they've laid out the second the episode ends and start back at square one with each new episode.

And I'm in full agreement with the others wondering how anyone can see this as the greatest show of all time.  It was good for the first few seasons, maybe bordering on great at times, but if you look objectively at anything post season four as anything other than mediocre at absolute best, you're... well, I can't really say without coming across like a giant ass.

Yes.  It's been said before but bears repeating: there are a lot of "points" but they have little or no connection between them.  It's really been nothing more than a series of practically unrelated vignettes for a very long time now.

21 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They say they were planning to have Arya kill the NK for THREE YEARS!  And, yet, there is nothing in the show that even in hindsight foreshadows this, they gave her a chance to get some intel when she talks to Gendry, but he's got nothing.  Neither Mel nor Bran give her any intel. She might have had some convos with the kindly man in Braavos about the long night or something....but there is nothing at all to prepare the story for Arya jumping the line and making AA and the promised prince(ss) completely moot.  

I will never believe they planned much of anything ahead of time.  If they had, we'd actually see that, even if just a tiny bit, on-screen.  Just like they planned practically from the beginning to change Sansa into fArya.  Riiiigggghhhhhttt:rolleyes:  

20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The black-haired beauty of a baby :lol: A classic.

She trips over a cat at King's Landing.

More likely a banana peel.  In clown shows, it's always a banana peel.  At this point, I could absolutely see Arya slipping on a banana peel and impaling herself on the Iron Throne. 

11 hours ago, neutralbhad said:

The Onion is satire

Yes.  And the definition of satire is, of course:

Quote

satire

noun
-the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
-a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
-a literary genre comprising such compositions.

GoT has proven itself very worthy of satirizing for quite a while now.

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