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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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9 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

What you said made me start thinking of the whole show as pantomime. It would have been an improvement! It's not like the show was ever clear anyway.

They took advantage of the lack of clarity to drop storylines and change direction according to their latest whims. Their undoing was actually ending the thing.

That's why I think GOT would have been better had it been schlock all the way through. Then it would have just been another poor adaptation that no one would have taken too seriously. 

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20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That's why I think GOT would have been better had it been schlock all the way through. Then it would have just been another poor adaptation that no one would have taken too seriously. 

That's true!

There was a Saturday Night Live take-off on the show they took down (supposedly due to a soundtrack issue), where an obnoxious 13 year old boy was running the show.

Here's a transcript:

https://snltranscripts.jt.org/11/11sthrones.phtml

Edited by Le Cygne
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The whole Saint Tyrion is always right and the smartest man alive really has been bothering me lately.  His belief that starving a city out compared to sacking it or just burning down the red keep is humane makes no sense. A direct assault would be brutal but starving the city means the commoners would suffer the most and although there was a riot in season 2, it didn't really lead to anything. 

I really don't understand how this is considered to be the most peaceful way to win a war.

Another was how in the bells he walks through the city gates sadly while burning bodies are all over the place. Okay so Tyrion kinda forgot he burned thousands of people alive in the Blackwater battle, but if Dany didn't burn the golden company soldiers then they would have killed a lot more of Jon's men before they got through the gates so why is this so upsetting to him?

It really bothers me that Tyrion is such a whitewashed saint now yet what he proposes is meant to be a kind way to take the city, when it really isn't.

 

Oh and he knew what would happen when he joined Dany. How can he be so against the dragon queen using her dragons in battle when he knows exactly what the results will be based on field of fire, harrenhall, etc, and joined her anyway?

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58 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

The whole Saint Tyrion is always right and the smartest man alive really has been bothering me lately.  His belief that starving a city out compared to sacking it or just burning down the red keep is humane makes no sense. A direct assault would be brutal but starving the city means the commoners would suffer the most and although there was a riot in season 2, it didn't really lead to anything. 

I really don't understand how this is considered to be the most peaceful way to win a war.

Another was how in the bells he walks through the city gates sadly while burning bodies are all over the place. Okay so Tyrion kinda forgot he burned thousands of people alive in the Blackwater battle, but if Dany didn't burn the golden company soldiers then they would have killed a lot more of Jon's men before they got through the gates so why is this so upsetting to him?

It really bothers me that Tyrion is such a whitewashed saint now yet what he proposes is meant to be a kind way to take the city, when it really isn't.

 

Oh and he knew what would happen when he joined Dany. How can he be so against the dragon queen using her dragons in battle when he knows exactly what the results will be based on field of fire, harrenhall, etc, and joined her anyway?

Tyrion is probably the biggest failure of characterisation in this series. He was D & D's self insert.  He is meant to be the voice of reason, restraining Dany's worst impulses.  In fact, he is a criminally incompetent reactionary, who was at some subconscious level, betraying Dany in favour of his family.

So, we get his plan to keep slavery for seven years, and compensate the slavers.  Why?  He sees them as fellow highborn, and can empathise with them, rather than the slaves.  It blows up in his face.

He talks Dany out of hitting the Red Keep (which any commander would do) in favour of a complex strategy that gets thousands killed.  Hitting the Red Keep would threaten his family.

He proposed the stupid Wight hunt, then proposed leaving them in the lurch.

He assured Dany Cersei could be trusted.

As you say, he thought starving people to death was humane.  But, it would likely save Cersei.

He committed treason by freeing Jaime to save Cersei.

And finally, his ghastly "first they came for the slave traders" homily.

A bungling, useless, selfish traitor.

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1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Another was how in the bells he walks through the city gates sadly while burning bodies are all over the place. Okay so Tyrion kinda forgot he burned thousands of people alive in the Blackwater battle, but if Dany didn't burn the golden company soldiers then they would have killed a lot more of Jon's men before they got through the gates so why is this so upsetting to him?

 

Technically, Bronn did that.

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I wondering if everyone else on the boards too believes that D&D simply made Sansa Queen in the North silence any criticisms from the audience, television critics directed towards them after the whole Ramsay/Sansa subplot.  It seems to me that they simply tried to throw a bone to Sophie Turner and tried to a sure her that whole Sansa/Winterhell plot work out after all. I myself believe that if Bran becomes king in the end then the north would remain part of the seven kingdoms. 

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7 minutes ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I wondering if everyone else on the boards too believes that D&D simply made Sansa Queen in the North silence any criticisms from the audience, television critics directed towards them after the whole Ramsay/Sansa subplot.  It seems to me that they simply tried to throw a bone to Sophie Turner and tried to a sure her that whole Sansa/Winterhell plot work out after all. I myself believe that if Bran becomes king in the end then the north would remain part of the seven kingdoms. 

Very likely, IMHO.  I think the books are quite clear that Northern independence was a terrible idea which got thousands of people killed - and left the North badly weakened - in pursuit of a vanity project.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Very likely, IMHO.  I think the books are quite clear that Northern independence was a terrible idea which got thousands of people killed - and left the North badly weakened - in pursuit of a vanity project.

Exactly. Its only a few lords that would want independence. The majority of people, especially the common people will be happy with the system that worked for nearly 300 years as long as the person on the iron throne had a good relationship with the warden of the north. Nobody ever wanted Ned to declare himself king while Robert was alive because the system worked.

It always bothered me that nobody in the show from season 6 onwards bought up the fact that they are in a permanent rebellion at a time when they badly need to have peace with kings landing. If Jon or Sansa were Lord or lady of Winterfell (Brienne even said that Sansa is going to become lady of Winterfell to the Blackfish in season 6), then it would have made allying with Danaerys in season 7 so much easier. Being king or queen is, as you said a vanity project.

Hells, even back in season 1 and 2, if Robb were never named king then it would have been far easier to ally with Stannis and the war would have been over in a fortnight. A month max to deal with the ironborn too.

Edited by Ghostlydragon
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33 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Exactly. Its only a few lords that would want independence. The majority of people, especially the common people will be happy with the system that worked for nearly 300 years as long as the person on the iron throne had a good relationship with the warden of the north. Nobody ever wanted Ned to declare himself king while Robert was alive because the system worked.

It always bothered me that nobody in the show from season 6 onwards bought up the fact that they are in a permanent rebellion at a time when they badly need to have peace with kings landing. If Jon or Sansa were Lord or lady of Winterfell (Brienne even said that Sansa is going to become lady of Winterfell to the Blackfish in season 6), then it would have made allying with Danaerys in season 7 so much easier. Being king or queen is, as you said a vanity project.

Hells, even back in season 1 and 2, if Robb were never named king then it would have been far easier to ally with Stannis and the war would have been over in a fortnight. A month max to deal with the ironborn too.

"Northern independence" means the right to be ruled in perpetuity by one family.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Very likely, IMHO.  I think the books are quite clear that Northern independence was a terrible idea which got thousands of people killed - and left the North badly weakened - in pursuit of a vanity project.

I'm not sure Northern independence is a bad idea, self rule is usually a positive, but I have wondered if, considering GRRM had originally not listed Sansa as one of the top 5 characters whose end he knew since the 90s....if his end would really have Sansa end in sole control of the North as the queen.  I feel like it could be his end or could be as you say something the show did to blunt criticims of her Ramsay storyline. 

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14 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I wondering if everyone else on the boards too believes that D&D simply made Sansa Queen in the North silence any criticisms from the audience, television critics directed towards them after the whole Ramsay/Sansa subplot.  It seems to me that they simply tried to throw a bone to Sophie Turner and tried to a sure her that whole Sansa/Winterhell plot work out after all. I myself believe that if Bran becomes king in the end then the north would remain part of the seven kingdoms. 

Agreed on all points. I doubt DD would be able to explain why the North would seek independence, what benefits would accrue to it…

Edited by Nowy Tends
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14 hours ago, SeanF said:

Very likely, IMHO.  I think the books are quite clear that Northern independence was a terrible idea which got thousands of people killed - and left the North badly weakened - in pursuit of a vanity project.

Yes I am in agreement, A Dance with Drangons more or less confirmed that the Ironborn pursuit for a kingdom has brought them a cold brutal nightmare in the North. With Roose and Ramsay ruling the north, I can’t ever expect the Ironborne ever holding the North again. And now with the Others coming from the North, it will be a death trap trying to invade The North again. The Ironeborn themselves don’t even have numbers to field the most troops.

Same could be said with the North, especially if the others invade. The North will be most ravaged kingdom in Westeros. I’m of the opinion that at least in the books Sansa will be perhaps be regent to Winterfell (if Rickon is still alive in the end) and lady of the Vale. She’ll probably be largest landowner in Westeros and most powerful if believe what George is planning for her is true.

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2 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

Yes I am in agreement, A Dance with Drangons more or less confirmed that the Ironborn pursuit for a kingdom has brought them a cold brutal nightmare in the North. With Roose and Ramsay ruling the north, I can’t ever expect the Ironborne ever holding the North again. And now with the Others coming from the North, it will be a death trap trying to invade The North again. The Ironeborn themselves don’t even have numbers to field the most troops.

Same could be said with the North, especially if the others invade. The North will be most ravaged kingdom in Westeros. I’m of the opinion that at least in the books Sansa will be perhaps be regent to Winterfell (if Rickon is still alive in the end) and lady of the Vale. She’ll probably be largest landowner in Westeros and most powerful if believe what George is planning for her is true.

It's more that I think that a theme in the books is the need for humanity to come together in the face of an existential threat.  The Declaration of Independence made the North more vulnerable to that threat.

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14 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

 

Hells, even back in season 1 and 2, if Robb were never named king then it would have been far easier to ally with Stannis and the war would have been over in a fortnight. A month max to deal with the ironborn too.

You can blame the Greatjon on that one.

 

17 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I wondering if everyone else on the boards too believes that D&D simply made Sansa Queen in the North silence any criticisms from the audience, television critics directed towards them after the whole Ramsay/Sansa subplot.  It seems to me that they simply tried to throw a bone to Sophie Turner and tried to a sure her that whole Sansa/Winterhell plot work out after all. I myself believe that if Bran becomes king in the end then the north would remain part of the seven kingdoms. 

If that’s what they were trying to do to silence the critics after the Ramsay/Sansa marriage, it failed miserably. 

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37 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

You can blame the Greatjon on that one.

Yep. I feel like people are often really hard on Robb (book-Robb, that is), without considering all the contributing factors. Robb didn't name himself king; his bannerman did. He never ignored Catelyn, he just couldn't do everything she asked him to because he had a hundred other people to please.

 

I definitely think that Queen in the North was done to stifle sexism claims (even though the North, Iron Islands, and possibly Dorne will all likely by ruled by ladies at the end of the series in the books). When Entertainment Weekly did that huge spread after GOT ended last year, there was one quote from Kit about how he was worried that people would accuse D&D of being sexist because of the Dany twist. If one of the actors was worried about D&D getting crushed by critics, then you can bet they were too.

(It's also ironic to read the pre-season interviews D&D did, where they talked about how they wanted the IMBD scores from the last season to beat the all-time record, and how they hoped that this would be the most popular season. I'm not a fan of the Ds, but I did feel a little bad for them after reading that).

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57 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yep. I feel like people are often really hard on Robb (book-Robb, that is), without considering all the contributing factors. Robb didn't name himself king; his bannerman did. He never ignored Catelyn, he just couldn't do everything she asked him to because he had a hundred other people to please.

 

I definitely think that Queen in the North was done to stifle sexism claims (even though the North, Iron Islands, and possibly Dorne will all likely by ruled by ladies at the end of the series in the books). When Entertainment Weekly did that huge spread after GOT ended last year, there was one quote from Kit about how he was worried that people would accuse D&D of being sexist because of the Dany twist. If one of the actors was worried about D&D getting crushed by critics, then you can bet they were too.

(It's also ironic to read the pre-season interviews D&D did, where they talked about how they wanted the IMBD scores from the last season to beat the all-time record, and how they hoped that this would be the most popular season. I'm not a fan of the Ds, but I did feel a little bad for them after reading that).

To be fair to D & D  (not something I often say) I think the backlash against Season 8 was harsher than they deserved, but only because the praise for earlier seasons was greater than they deserved.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

To be fair to D & D  (not something I often say) I think the backlash against Season 8 was harsher than they deserved, but only because the praise for earlier seasons was greater than they deserved.

I think that's a great way of putting it. All the problems that were present in Season 8 had been there for years, and in the end, book fans' anger with GOT was nothing compared to show fans'.

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18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that's a great way of putting it. All the problems that were present in Season 8 had been there for years, and in the end, book fans' anger with GOT was nothing compared to show fans'.

My impression is a lot of book fans stopped watching, long before Season 8, which made things easier for D & D.  They thought they could appeal to casual viewers with great scenes, good acting, and great music, and that plot holes, contrivances, continuity errors, and making characters act out of character would be overlooked.

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Season 8 was garbage, plain and simple. They squandered the source material, but that road was taken long ago. Fact is, they squandered their own show.

That they even said they'd get good reviews speaks of the privilege they flaunt. They don't care, they got what they wanted, awards and fat new contracts.

They aren't afraid of being called sexist, they enjoy it. They are in your face with it.

When Benioff was asked about the gratuitous female nudity he blew it off saying whatever, his wife is "showing her tits tomorrow" on television.

They blamed Sansa for making a bad "choice" and said she'd just have to "deal with it"! They made her Queen of the Extras to spite the critics of season 5.

And after all the nasty things they said and did, look what they did to Dany. Her Satanic Majesty. Never even gave her dying words. They find it all amusing.

Let's be fair to the viewers. Let's show sympathy for the viewers. Not these clowns.

Edited by Le Cygne
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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Season 8 was garbage, plain and simple. They squandered the source material, but that road was taken long ago. Fact is, they squandered their own show.

That they even said they'd get good reviews speaks of the privilege they flaunt. They don't care, they got what they wanted, awards and fat new contracts.

They aren't afraid of being called sexist, they enjoy it. They are in your face with it.

When Benioff was asked about the gratuitous female nudity he blew it off saying whatever, his wife is "showing her tits tomorrow" on television.

They blamed Sansa for making a bad "choice" and said she'd just have to "deal with it"! They made her Queen of the Extras to spite the critics of season 5.

And after all the nasty things they said and did, look what they did to Dany. Her Satanic Majesty. Never even gave her dying words. They find it all amusing.

Let's be fair to the viewers. Let's show sympathy for the viewers. Not these clowns.

Thank you for reminding me that any sympathy I might feel for them is entirely misplaced.

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