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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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Season 1: This looks cool. What's going on? What's a Targarian?

Season 2: This looks cool. What's going on? I guess I'd best read this icy fire thingie. Oh. So why did they do that to Dany and Robb? What's with making Jaime kill that chap?

Season 3: This is pretty good!

Season 4: This is pretty good. BUT ...

Season 5: This is pretty goo... The rationale for Sansa going to Winterfell makes no sense; but it might still be coo... Oh, it wasn't ... Bad WHAT? ... Oh, come ON!

Season 6: Well, this isn't quite so shocking as last season; but that doesn't make it good ... I like the Jon-Sansa meeting ... The North kinda forgot ... I'm the last thing from a military tactician; but come ON! ... Arya's plot armour is through the roof ... Well, the ending was kind of cool; but still ...

Season 7: Oh, cool, they're arriving in Westeros ... Did everyone kinda forget the sept, or what? ... This. Makes. No. Sense. Even by GOT standards. Best just look at the pretty stuff... Pretty, pretty, pretty!

Season 8: Maybe this won't be so bad ... I can't see anything. ... They really don't like dialogue, do they? ... Oh, come ON! ... Okay, will the ending at least be mindlessly enjoyable? ... These flames look pretty ... Wait, what just happened? ... Nooooooooooooo!!!!! ... You just ruined your own show! ... Well, may as well just watch this last episode .... They really don't like dialogue, do they?

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7 hours ago, Vaith said:

I'm not a Dany-hater, but I always thought that the killing of the Khals was handled... very bizarrely. The logistical implications weren't that great. Would they respect her for killing them by burning down the temple with the brazier? It seems like a pretty treacherous act that would have had the kos and bloodriders cut her down the minute she stepped out of the temple. In terms of what it implies about the character, she did have a pretty easy out, as Jorah and Daario had just turned up before she turned them down and decided to still kill the khals.

However, this could have been fixed if they didn't retcon the ADWD ending. Having her kill the Khals with Drogon would have made far more sense and I honestly don't know why he wasn't there apart from them wanting to have two "epic Dany" moments with the speech she gave on Drogon's back. 

I completly agree with you and have mentioned this several times.

The way she killed the khals should have made the dothriaki turn against her. IT wasnt honorable, it didn t show strength and for them she looked like a witch that survived a fire with her magic. And the dothriaki don t like magic...

In terms of what this means for her character and how the fans and dothriaki reacted is just weird. I accept that the khals and dothriaki in general are bad people but we just saw a person refuse to accept a culture she accepted during season 1 because it wasn t convenient for her (it is pretty hipocritical to accept the dothriaki culture to become a khalesi but when the culture says she would lose her power it is ok to turn against it), kill the leaders of these people, change their culture as she sees fit (everybody is a bloodrider because reasons, no more slavery, everbody is going to travel the ocean, everybody is going to leave essos and fight my battles because I am awesome...) and nobody finds all this perturbing...There is no negotiation, no convincing people, not showing why they should do this...

D&D by making the dothriaki blind followers without any opinions made danny a dictator way before season 8. And I am not saying she is a bad person or that the dothriaki didn t become better people under her reign. Just that it is pretty awfull to see someone completly change the way a group of people live without any imput or participation from these people.

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3 hours ago, divica said:

In terms of what this means for her character and how the fans and dothriaki reacted is just weird.

Cersei blows up a religious building for self-preservation and to gain more power: VILLAIN!!!

Dany blows up a religious building for self-preservation and to gain more power: YAS QUEEN!!!

Fans in a nut shell. Meanwhile I'm sitting here being thoroughly confused about fans.

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3 hours ago, divica said:

I completly agree with you and have mentioned this several times.

The way she killed the khals should have made the dothriaki turn against her. IT wasnt honorable, it didn t show strength and for them she looked like a witch that survived a fire with her magic. And the dothriaki don t like magic...

In terms of what this means for her character and how the fans and dothriaki reacted is just weird. I accept that the khals and dothriaki in general are bad people but we just saw a person refuse to accept a culture she accepted during season 1 because it wasn t convenient for her (it is pretty hipocritical to accept the dothriaki culture to become a khalesi but when the culture says she would lose her power it is ok to turn against it), kill the leaders of these people, change their culture as she sees fit (everybody is a bloodrider because reasons, no more slavery, everbody is going to travel the ocean, everybody is going to leave essos and fight my battles because I am awesome...) and nobody finds all this perturbing...There is no negotiation, no convincing people, not showing why they should do this...

D&D by making the dothriaki blind followers without any opinions made danny a dictator way before season 8. And I am not saying she is a bad person or that the dothriaki didn t become better people under her reign. Just that it is pretty awfull to see someone completly change the way a group of people live without any imput or participation from these people.

And the problem is that not a single Dothraki, as far as I can recall, says anything to Dany after the Khals' death. No line about them being uneasy to cross the sea, nothing. They're a complete monolith, and it seems like Benioff & Weiss were desperate to get rid of them: as if, at the beginning of Season 7, they noticed that Dany could beat Cersei in 2 seconds with her armies, and needed to find a way of her dumping them and prolonging her attack on King's Landing (neither a siege or a controlled attack is "humane"? Okay...)

But yeah, a lot of the Dothraki there were not helpless commoners looking for a liberator. It would be like if a lord's widow lit a room with all the most important rulers of Westeros on fire and all the knights and petty lords bowed down instead of killing her on the spot. If she defeats them on the field of battle with a dragon, sure, a lot would probably think it best to bend the knee (and to the Dothraki that would be actual martial strength). 

Imagine being a Dothraki rider in show-Dany's army. She kills all your culture's leaders with a brazier, makes you promise to commit ritual suicide if she dies, takes you on a sea you're deadly afraid of, you're sent on a couple of battles, go to the freezing north and see most of your culture get sacrificed to fight zombies. Then after your Khaleesi dies you decide not to commit suicide but her brilliant and fair rule just makes you forget the years you spent capturing slaves and you volunteer to liberate the Free Cities.

18 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Cersei blows up a religious building for self-preservation and to gain more power: VILLAIN!!!

Dany blows up a religious building for self-preservation and to gain more power: YAS QUEEN!!!

Fans in a nut shell. Meanwhile I'm sitting here being thoroughly confused about fans.

One of them smirked, drank wine, and wore a textbook Evil Queen black dress. The other had epic music playing in the background, and she made a cool speech on a dragon. That makes all the difference!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, divica said:

I completly agree with you and have mentioned this several times.

The way she killed the khals should have made the dothriaki turn against her. IT wasnt honorable, it didn t show strength and for them she looked like a witch that survived a fire with her magic. And the dothriaki don t like magic...

In terms of what this means for her character and how the fans and dothriaki reacted is just weird. I accept that the khals and dothriaki in general are bad people but we just saw a person refuse to accept a culture she accepted during season 1 because it wasn t convenient for her (it is pretty hipocritical to accept the dothriaki culture to become a khalesi but when the culture says she would lose her power it is ok to turn against it), kill the leaders of these people, change their culture as she sees fit (everybody is a bloodrider because reasons, no more slavery, everbody is going to travel the ocean, everybody is going to leave essos and fight my battles because I am awesome...) and nobody finds all this perturbing...There is no negotiation, no convincing people, not showing why they should do this...

D&D by making the dothriaki blind followers without any opinions made danny a dictator way before season 8. And I am not saying she is a bad person or that the dothriaki didn t become better people under her reign. Just that it is pretty awfull to see someone completly change the way a group of people live without any imput or participation from these people.

I certainly think it is very unlikely that the Dothraki would have reacted as they did.  I think it far more likely that they would have just killed her on the spot.   I expect that in TWOW, she will have to undergo some form of trial by ordeal, before the Dothraki (or some of them) could be persuaded to follow her.  And, they won't follow her unless she offers them some form of deal, eg the treasure of the slavers, in return for giving up slavery.

That said, I saw nothing wrong with killing the Khals, in and of itself.  They had kidnapped her, rejected her offer of ransom, and were variously debating whether to imprison her for life, rape her, or sell her to slavers.  Any woman in such a situation would be entitled to use lethal force against her captors, even more so she is a Head of State.  Even if your kidnappers are nice people, you're still entitled to kill them.  

I'm writing as a lawyer here.  If you are ever kidnapped, you need never worry about killing your captors, from a legal standpoint.  It will always be treated as an act of self-defence.

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Vaith said:

One of them smirked, drank wine, and wore a textbook Evil Queen black dress. The other had epic music playing in the background, and she made a cool speech on a dragon. That makes all the difference!

Speech on dragon doesn't count, that wasn't in the scene of the religious building being burned. And Dany didn't smirk at the khals? If she had a wine glass she would have been toasting to them just before she toasted them.

But that's not the point, the fan reaction is. Cersei had been declared a villain long before she ever did anything. What's her body count before blowing up the Sept? Dany by comparison had been doing such lovely things as feeding people to her dragons. But people celebrated her in everything she did, meanwhile Cersei was the villain just because she was a witch of a woman. That's why fans/viewers are just weird as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by Mystical

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

 

But that's not the point, the fan reaction is. Cersei had been declared a villain long before she ever did anything. What's her body count before blowing up the Sept? Dany by comparison had been doing such lovely things as feeding people to her dragons. But people celebrated her in everything she did, meanwhile Cersei was the villain just because she was a witch of a woman. That's why fans/viewers are just weird as far as I'm concerned.

Cersei's body count for the entire series is 1, that's Tyene Sand.

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Speech on dragon doesn't count, that wasn't in the scene of the religious building being burned. And Dany didn't smirk at the khals? If she had a wine glass she would have been toasting to them just before she toasted them.

But that's not the point, the fan reaction is. Cersei had been declared a villain long before she ever did anything. What's her body count before blowing up the Sept? Dany by comparison had been doing such lovely things as feeding people to her dragons. But people celebrated her in everything she did, meanwhile Cersei was the villain just because she was a witch of a woman. That's why fans/viewers are just weird as far as I'm concerned.

Cersei has been a villain since season 1, episode 1.  She was standing right there when Jamie pushed Bran out the window, she had Lady killed, she organized the betrayal and imprisonment of Ned, she had her husband killed, and this was all in the first season.  

Dany was presented as a hero and the things she did were to 'slavers' so it was always glossed over, glossed over by book fans as well.  But, let's not get crazy and start equating Cersei, who never once did anything that wasn't to her own personal benefit to Dany, who many times did things and took risks to help other people, even if she has never quite been the good queen she thought she was. 

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On 5/12/2020 at 4:08 PM, divica said:

Yeah, but both Emilia Clarke and and lena headey played Sarah Connor. And both died in the end... 

“Don’t worry, they’ll be back!”

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Speaking of no one doing a rewatch....

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/may/14/the-battle-of-the-binge-should-you-watch-game-of-thrones-lockdown-hbo

Which was the worst bit? The moment when [redacted] – set up from the very first scene of the very first episode to be the show’s terrifyingly allegorical Big Bad – got offed as an afterthought to give us more of [redacted] working through his mummy issues with his sexy aunt? The episode that was exclusively comprised of a series of incomprehensible brown sludges scraping up against each other? The finale, where [redacted] turned into Hitler, then died, then [redacted] of all people took over, and [redacted] popped in at the end to say: “I’ve written this book, called [redacted] of [redacted]” and nobody punched him?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Speaking of no one doing a rewatch....

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/may/14/the-battle-of-the-binge-should-you-watch-game-of-thrones-lockdown-hbo

Which was the worst bit? The moment when [redacted] – set up from the very first scene of the very first episode to be the show’s terrifyingly allegorical Big Bad – got offed as an afterthought to give us more of [redacted] working through his mummy issues with his sexy aunt? The episode that was exclusively comprised of a series of incomprehensible brown sludges scraping up against each other? The finale, where [redacted] turned into Hitler, then died, then [redacted] of all people took over, and [redacted] popped in at the end to say: “I’ve written this book, called [redacted] of [redacted]” and nobody punched him?

 

 

Yes that's the same feeling I have. Take a load of this line.

Obviously that was before the final season. Now, all things considered, I would rather feed my legs to a dog than watch Game of Thrones again.

 

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12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Yes that's the same feeling I have. Take a load of this line.

Obviously that was before the final season. Now, all things considered, I would rather feed my legs to a dog than watch Game of Thrones again.

 

Amen to that.  If I had to pick the absolute low point, not just of Season 8, but of the entire series, I think it would be Tyrion's/Benioff & Weiss' version of Niemoller:-

"First they came for the slave traders, and I did nothing for I was not a slave trader.

Then they came for the rapists, and I did nothing, for I was not a rapist.

Then they came for the child murderers, and I did nothing, for I was a not a child murderer.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

I loathe it even more than "play with her arse", "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one", and the death of Ros.

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Amen to that.  If I had to pick the absolute low point, not just of Season 8, but of the entire series, I think it would be Tyrion's/Benioff & Weiss' version of Niemoller:-

"First they came for the slave traders, and I did nothing for I was not a slave trader.

Then they came for the rapists, and I did nothing, for I was not a rapist.

Then they came for the child murderers, and I did nothing, for I was a not a child murderer.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

I loathe it even more than "play with her arse", "I'm going to fuck the tits off this one", and the death of Ros.

That speech never bothered me, it was a rushed retcon to cover up and make the audience forget that they had positioned all of those things she did as heroic, but the underlying message....that she has been doing cruel things for a long time but they were overlooked because her victims were 'bad' is correct and will be the same in the book. Book fans have long been divided over Dany's methods so far and it appears it will turn out that those who always argued that Dany's ends justify means and its okay to kill all 14 year olds in a tokar and torture some guys daughter because slavery is bad, is a poor policy, were correct.  She has been extracting revenge since she burned MMD but there has always been a thread of rightfulness in what she did because the victims were either bad people or were bent on harming her.  The end of the show tells me that that thread of rightfulness will break eventually and she will become a tyrant still convinced of her own goodness. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That speech never bothered me, it was a rushed retcon to cover up and make the audience forget that they had positioned all of those things she did as heroic, but the underlying message....that she has been doing cruel things for a long time but they were overlooked because her victims were 'bad' is correct and will be the same in the book. Book fans have long been divided over Dany's methods so far and it appears it will turn out that those who always argued that Dany's ends justify means and its okay to kill all 14 year olds in a tokar and torture some guys daughter because slavery is bad, is a poor policy, were correct.  She has been extracting revenge since she burned MMD but there has always been a thread of rightfulness in what she did because the victims were either bad people or were bent on harming her.  The end of the show tells me that that thread of rightfulness will break eventually and she will become a tyrant still convinced of her own goodness. 

Surely, that's true of almost every sympathetic protagonist in either the book or the show.  They all had blood on their hands.  Dany was not the only person who killed bad people, often in pretty cruel circumstances.  Arya, Jon, Brienne, Robb, Tyrion, Sansa, Tormund etc. all dealt out death to people we saw as "bad", and the show runners invited us to welcome this.  Which is no more than one should expect in a medieval world at war.  Right up until the end, Daenerys fitted in to this world, rather than being apart from it, but quite suddenly, her willingness to use violence (but nobody else's) became problematic. One could just as easily say of Jon and his siblings "everywhere they go, evil men die, and we cheer them for it."  Tyrion's own body count was massive, and included his girlfriend and his father.

It's certainly not just the antagonists to the Starks who practise murder, rape, and torture in war, in Westeros.  Their own men are just as brutal as those who serve the Lannisters. 

 

Edited by SeanF

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Just now, SeanF said:

Surely, that's true of almost every sympathetic protagonist in either the book or the show.  They all had blood on their hands.  Dany was not the only person who killed bad people, often in pretty cruel circumstances.  Arya, Jon, Brienne, Robb, Tyrion, Sansa, Tormund etc. all dealt out death to people we saw as "bad", and the show runners invited us to welcome this.  Which is no more than one should expect in a medieval world at war.  Right up until the end, Daenerys fitted in to this world, rather than being apart from it, but quite suddenly, her willingness to use violence (but nobody else's) became problematic. One could just as easily say of Jon and his siblings "everywhere they go, evil men die, and we cheer them for it."  Tyrion's own body count was massive, and included his girlfriend and his father.

 

Tyrion is objectively a pretty 'bad' person, he allowed for much brutality against the enemies of his family when Joff was king, and of course he murdered Shae for making a fool of him,  no self defense at all and killed his own father.  He's a POS.  

I don't see it the same for Jon, Brienne or Robb, they have never gratuitously killed or ordered or approved the killing of civilians, which is what Dany has done in Essos.  Arya's kills have progressively gotten closer to the line, but she has never yet killed or caused to be killed anyone really similar to the residents of Meereen and Astapor, who were slaughtered  for living in a slave holding society.  Tormund's past as a raider would mean that he's killed civilians South of the wall, so that is a legit issue.  I dislike Sansa, and her show version was a straight up traitor who should have been thrown in prison, but her book self she hasn't visited harm on anyone except for drugging her cousin.  

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31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That speech never bothered me, it was a rushed retcon to cover up and make the audience forget that they had positioned all of those things she did as heroic, but the underlying message....that she has been doing cruel things for a long time but they were overlooked because her victims were 'bad' is correct and will be the same in the book. Book fans have long been divided over Dany's methods so far and it appears it will turn out that those who always argued that Dany's ends justify means and its okay to kill all 14 year olds in a tokar and torture some guys daughter because slavery is bad, is a poor policy, were correct.  She has been extracting revenge since she burned MMD but there has always been a thread of rightfulness in what she did because the victims were either bad people or were bent on harming her.  The end of the show tells me that that thread of rightfulness will break eventually and she will become a tyrant still convinced of her own goodness. 

That speech never bothered you?!

LOL I promise I'm not laughing at you....

But she has NOT been in the business of exacting revenge since she burned MMD.

I'm a bit stunned that you think that the show has any real bearing on what the book ending will be. The only thing I see as guaranteed to happen is:

  • Bran becoming king

 

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Tyrion is objectively a pretty 'bad' person, he allowed for much brutality against the enemies of his family when Joff was king, and of course he murdered Shae for making a fool of him,  no self defense at all and killed his own father.  He's a POS.  

I don't see it the same for Jon, Brienne or Robb, they have never gratuitously killed or ordered or approved the killing of civilians, which is what Dany has done in Essos.  Arya's kills have progressively gotten closer to the line, but she has never yet killed or caused to be killed anyone really similar to the residents of Meereen and Astapor, who were slaughtered  for living in a slave holding society.  Tormund's past as a raider would mean that he's killed civilians South of the wall, so that is a legit issue.  I dislike Sansa, and her show version was a straight up traitor who should have been thrown in prison, but her book self she hasn't visited harm on anyone except for drugging her cousin.  

You do realize that Robb invaded the Westerlands and unleashed on the westerners the same amount of misfortune that Tywin and Jaime unleased on the Riverlands. He has tacitly approved the killing of enemy civilians.

I don't see how Dany is any different from any other king/warlord in the series. She's objectively a better ruler than any other leader that we've seen.

Edited by BlackLightning

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Tyrion is objectively a pretty 'bad' person, he allowed for much brutality against the enemies of his family when Joff was king, and of course he murdered Shae for making a fool of him,  no self defense at all and killed his own father.  He's a POS.  

I don't see it the same for Jon, Brienne or Robb, they have never gratuitously killed or ordered or approved the killing of civilians, which is what Dany has done in Essos.  Arya's kills have progressively gotten closer to the line, but she has never yet killed or caused to be killed anyone really similar to the residents of Meereen and Astapor, who were slaughtered  for living in a slave holding society.  Tormund's past as a raider would mean that he's killed civilians South of the wall, so that is a legit issue.  I dislike Sansa, and her show version was a straight up traitor who should have been thrown in prison, but her book self she hasn't visited harm on anyone except for drugging her cousin.  

Going by the books, the kindest thing that could be said for Robb is that his army was completely out of his control.  Marq Piper hanged women "who lay with lions". Roose Bolton put women in the stocks to be raped.  These weren't junior underlings, but top commanders.  When he marched West, Catelyn noted that he was "paying back the West in kind" for what the Lannisters did in the Riverlands.  The Brotherhood without Banners hated Stark rapists and murderers just as much as they did Lannisters.  

The Nights Watch tortured their captives for  information.  Jon tortured Karstark to the point of insanity.  Karstark was an obviously unpleasant man, but Jon was also nasty towards Gilly as well.  

I think the elites of Astapor and Meereen were more than just innocent bystanders.  Daenerys' orders were problematic in some ways, but they were directed against the leaders of these societies, not the masses.

 

Edited by SeanF

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14 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

That speech never bothered you?!

LOL I promise I'm not laughing at you....

But she has NOT been in the business of exacting revenge since she burned MMD.

I'm a bit stunned that you think that the show has any real bearing on what the book ending will be. The only thing I see as guaranteed to happen is:

  • Bran becoming king

 

You do realize that Robb invaded the Westerlands and unleashed on the westerners the same amount of misfortune that Tywin and Jaime unleased on the Riverlands. He has tacitly approved the killing of enemy civilians.

I don't see how Dany is any different from any other king/warlord in the series. She's objectively a better ruler than any other leader that we've seen.

I think the show ending is absolutely a preview of what will happen in the books, dumbed down and executed stupidly.

Dany will turn villian and die. 100%.  There is no way, literally no way that the useless showrunners would have killed their golden goose and all the great PR they got for their feminist hero if this move had not come from GRRM.  Bran will become king.  100%.  Same, the showrunners hated Bran since season 2, never ever would they have made him king unless GRRM did.  Arya leaves Westeros.  100%, same, a super popular character fucks off and leaves everything she ever cared about must come from GRRM.  Jon goes back to the wall.  100%.  Tyrion lives and goes back to KL to be rich and powerful.  98%.  Sansa becomes queen.  85%.  

*Dany is not objectively a better ruler by any means except her goals are something we the audience agrees with.  In the reality, materially her people are dead, dying of plague and starvation and looking at war from all angles, the economy is in ruins with no strategy to fix it. 

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I think the show ending is absolutely a preview of what will happen in the books, dumbed down and executed stupidly.

Dany will turn villian and die. 100%.  There is no way, literally no way that the useless showrunners would have killed their golden goose and all the great PR they got for their feminist hero if this move had not come from GRRM.  Bran will become king.  100%.  Same, the showrunners hated Bran since season 2, never ever would they have made him king unless GRRM did.  Arya leaves Westeros.  100%, same, a super popular character fucks off and leaves everything she ever cared about must come from GRRM.  Jon goes back to the wall.  100%.  Tyrion lives and goes back to KL to be rich and powerful.  98%.  Sansa becomes queen.  85%.  

*Dany is not objectively a better ruler by any means except her goals are something we the audience agrees with.  In the reality, materially her people are dead, dying of plague and starvation and looking at war from all angles, the economy is in ruins with no strategy to fix it. 

I would have thought the big difference is that in the show, the War for the Dawn is a bit of a sideshow, over in one night.  The big fight is for Kings Landing.

In the books, I'm sure the War for the Dawn is the climax.  Even if Dany dies in that (which is probable, IMHO) she'll be far better regarded than at the end of show. If Tyrion is "the villain" - as Martin has said - (even a villain who triumphs) I don't think Dany can also be.  The show sanctified Tyrion, so it had to vilify someone else.  

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I would have thought the big difference is that in the show, the War for the Dawn is a bit of a sideshow, over in one night.  The big fight is for Kings Landing.

In the books, I'm sure the War for the Dawn is the climax.  Even if Dany dies in that (which is probable, IMHO) she'll be far better regarded than at the end of show. If Tyrion is "the villain" - as Martin has said - (even a villain who triumphs) I don't think Dany can also be.  The show sanctified Tyrion, so it had to vilify someone else.  

I was really only focusing on the main character end points, I doubt there is any big battle at Winterfell other than Stannis, and so on, Arya obviously will  not kill the "Night King" even if such a person eventually shows up, which is not anything close to a given.  Euron will presumably do more than flounce around like a rock star and get killed in a dumb duel with Jamie. Cersei will not stare out the window for a whole book and then die with bricks falling on her head. 

I have to disagree on Dany, her story is going to be the tragic fall of a good person who lost their way, partly due to trauma, partly due to her personality which has always exhibited a streak of cruelty combined with impulsiveness combined with self satisfaction, but lose her way she will and so much so that somebody will find it necessary to kill her in order to protect Westeros,  GRRM loves Tyrion and so this means that he is getting redeemed.  All in my opinion.

ETA.  Tyrion has always been presented as a pragmatist, while Dany is an idealist and the moral is going to be that pragmatic is better and safe than idealism which can push you into zealotry.  And I'm okay with that message even though I believe Tyrion deserves death for his many crimes.

Edited by Cas Stark

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