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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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25 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I was really only focusing on the main character end points, I doubt there is any big battle at Winterfell other than Stannis, and so on, Arya obviously will  not kill the "Night King" even if such a person eventually shows up, which is not anything close to a given.  Euron will presumably do more than flounce around like a rock star and get killed in a dumb duel with Jamie. Cersei will not stare out the window for a whole book and then die with bricks falling on her head. 

I have to disagree on Dany, her story is going to be the tragic fall of a good person who lost their way, partly due to trauma, partly due to her personality which has always exhibited a streak of cruelty combined with impulsiveness combined with self satisfaction, but lose her way she will and so much so that somebody will find it necessary to kill her in order to protect Westeros,  GRRM loves Tyrion and so this means that he is getting redeemed.  All in my opinion.

ETA.  Tyrion has always been presented as a pragmatist, while Dany is an idealist and the moral is going to be that pragmatic is better and safe than idealism which can push you into zealotry.  And I'm okay with that message even though I believe Tyrion deserves death for his many crimes.

As we've discussed on the Better Call Saul thread, I could see a kind of Kim Wexler character arc for Daenerys; that's possible, maybe probable.  Empathy for the downtrodden turns into a desire to reward or punish people as she deems fitting. That's very different to D & D showing her going batshit over the course of two episodes. 

Tyrion I think, is more a kind of Richard III/Iago figure.  I don't think there's any redemption arc there, even if he triumphs in the end. 

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25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As we've discussed on the Better Call Saul thread, I could see a kind of Kim Wexler character arc for Daenerys; that's possible, maybe probable.  Empathy for the downtrodden turns into a desire to reward or punish people as she deems fitting. That's very different to D & D showing her going batshit over the course of two episodes. 

Tyrion I think, is more a kind of Richard III/Iago figure.  I don't think there's any redemption arc there, even if he triumphs in the end. 

Ugh, don't remind me of Kim, I have wondered if I am even up to seeing her go full evil next season and am not quite sure, I may have to watch BSC on delay so I know what's coming.  But, yes, 'what I think is justice IS justice and what I do to get justice IS good". Exactly.

He's already on a 'redemption arc' though, he's stopped the continual woe is me, how terrible, my rich family was mean to me and the prostitute I paid to fuck me turns out to have been a prostitute who fucked me for money, oh how sad for me....so I don't know, I think that he will get a redemption, but I could be wrong.  I never thought GRRM would turn Dany into a villain even though I thought this is where her story should realistically go, so maybe he will end more darkly.  But, going by the show, he's back to the joke making game playing lovable scoundrel dude he was in the first book.

ETA again:  Tyrion's speech about Dany is the show doing a bad job of what the past season of BCS did with Kim.  BCS never really took sides with what Jimmy and Kim did, unlike GOT with Dany and always showing  her worst decisions as heroic, so when Kim breaks bad, they don't have to retcon anything, the audience is shocked and we, at least me, realize we were always blaming Jimmy for everything when based on her actions at present, she was always in.  GOT being poorly managed, had to try for this re evaluation by a speech that TELLS the audience what they are supposed to think now, because they can't do it organically like BCS did. 

Edited by Cas Stark

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14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He's already on a 'redemption arc' though, he's stopped the continual woe is me, how terrible, my rich family was mean to me and the prostitute I paid to fuck me turns out to have been a prostitute who fucked me for money, oh how sad for me....so I don't know, I think that he will get a redemption, but I could be wrong.

I don't see it happening. The first step of Redemption is admitting to yourself that you were wrong in what you did. That your actions hurt others, even killed them. And then you change as a person because you want to be better/different.

I don't think Tyrion will ever get to a place where he fully admits and realizes how wrongly he acted so many times in his life and how many lives he has destroyed as a result or how many people he hurt with his actions/words. The best one can hope for for Tyrion is what you described, that he gets real with himself and stops the woe is me attitude and/or finally gets over all the self-delusion he constantly engages in. But that's not redemption.

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40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Ugh, don't remind me of Kim, I have wondered if I am even up to seeing her go full evil next season and am not quite sure, I may have to watch BSC on delay so I know what's coming.  But, yes, 'what I think is justice IS justice and what I do to get justice IS good". Exactly.

He's already on a 'redemption arc' though, he's stopped the continual woe is me, how terrible, my rich family was mean to me and the prostitute I paid to fuck me turns out to have been a prostitute who fucked me for money, oh how sad for me....so I don't know, I think that he will get a redemption, but I could be wrong.  I never thought GRRM would turn Dany into a villain even though I thought this is where her story should realistically go, so maybe he will end more darkly.  But, going by the show, he's back to the joke making game playing lovable scoundrel dude he was in the first book.

ETA again:  Tyrion's speech about Dany is the show doing a bad job of what the past season of BCS did with Kim.  BCS never really took sides with what Jimmy and Kim did, unlike GOT with Dany and always showing  her worst decisions as heroic, so when Kim breaks bad, they don't have to retcon anything, the audience is shocked and we, at least me, realize we were always blaming Jimmy for everything when based on her actions at present, she was always in.  GOT being poorly managed, had to try for this re evaluation by a speech that TELLS the audience what they are supposed to think now, because they can't do it organically like BCS did. 

Tyrion is still portrayed as being vicious towards Penny, in his first chapter of TWOW.  My own view is that if he plays a part in encouraging Jon to destroy Daenerys, it will be very much down to his jealousy and resentment of them. It was sort of hinted at in the show. 

I suspect that Kim will never be completely unsympathetic in BSC.  But, there is a real inner rage at the world within her, similar to Walt's.  She's spent years bottling it up, but now her fury and anger is bubbling to the surface.

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33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion is still portrayed as being vicious towards Penny, in his first chapter of TWOW.  My own view is that if he plays a part in encouraging Jon to destroy Daenerys, it will be very much down to his jealousy and resentment of them. It was sort of hinted at in the show. 

I suspect that Kim will never be completely unsympathetic in BSC.  But, there is a real inner rage at the world within her, similar to Walt's.  She's spent years bottling it up, but now her fury and anger is bubbling to the surface.

I honestly don't think I can imagine a more nihilistic ending if Tyrion Lannister, who is a murderous, selfish POS, whether he is redeemed at all or somewhat or turns even darker [being witty does not erase any of that] ends triumphantly back in power in Westeros with the Stark family line all but extinguished, Jon living in a hovel up North, Dany dead, and especially if he was involved in this plot and only Jon bears the burden of the guilt, Arya gone, Varys dead, Tyrells dead, everyone we ever cared about dead or totally damaged and this asshole is still living it up?  I guess that would please the Tyrion stans, but who else?

 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I honestly don't think I can imagine a more nihilistic ending if Tyrion Lannister, who is a murderous, selfish POS, whether he is redeemed at all or somewhat or turns even darker [being witty does not erase any of that] ends triumphantly back in power in Westeros with the Stark family line all but extinguished, Jon living in a hovel up North, Dany dead, and especially if he was involved in this plot and only Jon bears the burden of the guilt, Arya gone, Varys dead, Tyrells dead, everyone we ever cared about dead or totally damaged and this asshole is still living it up?  I guess that would please the Tyrion stans, but who else?

 

It would not appeal to me either.  

The Show's ending was a nihilistic one.  Dany turned batshit, Jon murdered her, and was sent to live in Alaska, never marrying or having children.  Bran became a weird tree god - king.  Sansa will die childless, and Arya will disappear.  Tyrion failed upwards to become Hand, an illiterate sellsword  became Master of Coin, and the country is ruled by people who view the Smallfolk as livestock. 

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It would not appeal to me either.  

The Show's ending was a nihilistic one.  Dany turned batshit, Jon murdered her, and was sent to live in Alaska, never marrying or having children.  Bran became a weird tree god - king.  Sansa will die childless, and Arya will disappear.  Tyrion failed upwards to become Hand, an illiterate sellsword  became Master of Coin, and the country is ruled by people who view the Smallfolk as livestock. 

I've said for a long time the books will have a nihilistic ending, and I don't see a way around that based on the show, Bran in the books can't have children, so Sansa would then be the only remote hope and even that would be a long shot, Dany failed and is dead, Jon failed and is back to a nobody., the rest of the secondary characters so unimportant they weren't even in the show.  I do hope that GRRM kills Bronn because him ending as Lord of Highgarden and on the Small Council yuking it up about brothels was so cringeworthy I am happy to punish the book character for such insanity.

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The show latched onto some shiny objects from the book world but just used them as a springboard for their fanfic, so it's not the same story.

As for book Tyrion, at last glimpse, the same bad attitude toward women, and what he does with the sex slave and Penny is disturbing, and not a positive trend.

As for show Tyrion, he's Benioff/Weiss's self-insert, so they tried to make him perfect like they are, but failed since they can't write their way out of a paper bag.

Peter Dinklage describing Tyrion is a LOL moment, and certainly not the book character:

"The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence."

So since sometime in season 2, he has been super responsible, as well as the most moral man in the universe. He just needed to find an outlet for his superior brain.

In the end he found his calling: advocating kinslaying, arranging chairs and setting up brothels.

And that's just one example. All the characters are so different, it's not even possible that the show and books can mesh anymore. Nor would they bother doing so.

Edited by Le Cygne

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I was really only focusing on the main character end points, I doubt there is any big battle at Winterfell other than Stannis, and so on, Arya obviously will  not kill the "Night King" even if such a person eventually shows up, which is not anything close to a given.  Euron will presumably do more than flounce around like a rock star and get killed in a dumb duel with Jamie. Cersei will not stare out the window for a whole book and then die with bricks falling on her head. 

I have to disagree on Dany, her story is going to be the tragic fall of a good person who lost their way, partly due to trauma, partly due to her personality which has always exhibited a streak of cruelty combined with impulsiveness combined with self satisfaction, but lose her way she will and so much so that somebody will find it necessary to kill her in order to protect Westeros,  GRRM loves Tyrion and so this means that he is getting redeemed.  All in my opinion.

ETA.  Tyrion has always been presented as a pragmatist, while Dany is an idealist and the moral is going to be that pragmatic is better and safe than idealism which can push you into zealotry.  And I'm okay with that message even though I believe Tyrion deserves death for his many crimes.

You're okay with the idea that idealism is a pipe dream?

I totally disagree...

Why would Jon even go back to the Wall at the end of the series? It made no sense since the White Walkers were destroyed in the show and the Wall was broken. What's the point?

Edited by BlackLightning

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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

You're okay with the idea that idealism is a pipe dream?

I totally disagree...

Why would Jon even go back to the Wall at the end of the series? It made no sense since the White Walkers were destroyed in the show and the Wall was broken. What's the point?

I mean he went beyond the wall. I could see him living with the free folk - given that he will be changed, when he comes back. He might be drawn to beyond the Wall and he might live there with Val and Ghost ;)

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42 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I mean he went beyond the wall. I could see him living with the free folk - given that he will be changed, when he comes back. He might be drawn to beyond the Wall and he might live there with Val and Ghost ;)

Do you know what the problem is? not even the wildlings like living beyhond the Wall… 

See this vídeo after 1:50

Even the show acknowlodges that the wildlings want to go live in a better place...

 

Another problem is that the wildlings need to change A LOOTTT if jon is suposed to want to live with them. We are talking about cannibals, murderers, rapists, that kidnap women in order to marry them, not respect order… If in the books jon ends up with the wildlings they will be a very diferent society that won t live in the worst possible place to live under an awful winter...

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

Do you know what the problem is? not even the wildlings like living beyhond the Wall… 

See this vídeo after 1:50

Even the show acknowlodges that the wildlings want to go live in a better place...

 

Another problem is that the wildlings need to change A LOOTTT if jon is suposed to want to live with them. We are talking about cannibals, murderers, rapists, that kidnap women in order to marry them, not respect order… If in the books jon ends up with the wildlings they will be a very diferent society that won t live in the worst possible place to live under an awful winter...

Yeah, Ik my theory has holes. I just see him as a coldhands figure and think he'll end up with Val and than I usually stop thinking. Maybe the land beyond the wall will be different after the long night. maybe most human beings will be dead anyway.

Quote

cannibals,

really? can't remember

Quote

murderers, rapists, that kidnap women in order to marry them, not respect order

true, but honestly Westeros doesn't treat women exactly well either. Find it hard to really figure out where the best place for a woman would be - we don't get a clear objective picture IMO (probably Dorne) And there are a lot of murderers in Westeros as well

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I honestly don't think I can imagine a more nihilistic ending if Tyrion Lannister, who is a murderous, selfish POS, whether he is redeemed at all or somewhat or turns even darker [being witty does not erase any of that] ends triumphantly back in power in Westeros with the Stark family line all but extinguished, Jon living in a hovel up North, Dany dead, and especially if he was involved in this plot and only Jon bears the burden of the guilt, Arya gone, Varys dead, Tyrells dead, everyone we ever cared about dead or totally damaged and this asshole is still living it up?  I guess that would please the Tyrion stans, but who else?

 

I would also add thar branbot ending as king is incredbly nihilistic. We are talking about someone that is suposed to loose his humanity and being able to invade the minds and past of everyone he wanted. Basically, humanity is so bad that it must be rulled by a being that lost his humanity to gain powers becoming something completly alien in the process...

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It would not appeal to me either.  

The Show's ending was a nihilistic one.  Dany turned batshit, Jon murdered her, and was sent to live in Alaska, never marrying or having children.  Bran became a weird tree god - king.  Sansa will die childless, and Arya will disappear.  Tyrion failed upwards to become Hand, an illiterate sellsword  became Master of Coin, and the country is ruled by people who view the Smallfolk as livestock.

I think bron was D&D trying to show people that people had good endings. There is no way bronn or sam end up in the small council unless a lot of time passes until the end of the war… Enough for them to gain a lot of qualifications they need years to acquire...

Also, I don t think the book sansa can become the show sansa. I can see her becoming smarter, but it would be weird if she stooped trying to be a proper lady that marries a good lord and helps her familly. Not everybody will become cold and avenging...

4 hours ago, Mystical said:

I don't think Tyrion will ever get to a place where he fully admits and realizes how wrongly he acted so many times in his life and how many lives he has destroyed as a result or how many people he hurt with his actions/words. The best one can hope for for Tyrion is what you described, that he gets real with himself and stops the woe is me attitude and/or finally gets over all the self-delusion he constantly engages in. But that's not redemption.

But even if he gets there. How can someone think he would be a good hand of the king?

In the end of the day he is a tywin in the making with the trauma of being a dwarf hated by his dad… And then we add the fact that people know he is a kinslayer and think he is a kingslayer. Nobody in westeros will ever respect him. And if the lannister fall then even if gets to be the head of his familly he will have much less power than he expected and the whole of westeros will hate him for being a lannister...

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10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, Ik my theory has holes. I just see him as a coldhands figure and think he'll end up with Val and than I usually stop thinking. Maybe the land beyond the wall will be different after the long night. maybe most human beings will be dead anyway.

really? can't remember

true, but honestly Westeros doesn't treat women exactly well either. Find it hard to really figure out where the best place for a woman would be - we don't get a clear objective picture IMO (probably Dorne) And there are a lot of murderers in Westeros as well

Really! There are some tibes of wildlings that are cannibals. That cozy idea people have of wildlings because of tormund just isn t true… We are talking about people that don t have access to steel or education… They are always worried about food… 

If he ends up with val and the wildlings it will be in order to incorporate the wildlings into westeros. That is the great goal of the wildlings! How to have acess to the better life in the 7 kingdoms without becoming kneelers. And that is something that jon can definetly do.

The ideia that after all this the wildlings will just go behond the Wall and continue living as they all lived just so that in a 100 years they are back to atacking the 7 kingdoms is completly awfull. IT makes all the conflict in the north pointless… IT is 100% nihilistic… The wildlings are fated to live forever warring against the 7 kingdoms and living in poverty and hunger...

 

Also, the murderers in westeros get punished. There are laws. With the wildlings they gain fame and form a new tribe… It just isn t a place somebody used civilization can live in...

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I mean he went beyond the wall. I could see him living with the free folk - given that he will be changed, when he comes back. He might be drawn to beyond the Wall and he might live there with Val and Ghost ;)

The wildlings don't want to live beyond the Wall. They have never wanted or liked to live beyond the Wall

Why does Jon deserve a happy ending after making himself a kinslayer?

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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The wildlings don't want to live beyond the Wall. They have never wanted or liked to live beyond the Wall

Why does Jon deserve a happy ending after making himself a kinslayer?

see #4373

also we don't know, if Jon will kinslay Dany, do we now?  Or under which circumstances 

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4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The wildlings don't want to live beyond the Wall. They have never wanted or liked to live beyond the Wall

Why does Jon deserve a happy ending after making himself a kinslayer?

I would say that the reason for becoming a kinslayer should be important...

 

But wether he gets a happy ending or not I think he deserves an ending where his life will have some meaning. And galivating around the north with the wildlings ignoring everything that happened so far is one of the most meaningless and depressing endings possible.

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35 minutes ago, divica said:

Really! There are some tibes of wildlings that are cannibals. That cozy idea people have of wildlings because of tormund just isn t true… We are talking about people that don t have access to steel or education… They are always worried about food… 

The ideia that after all this the wildlings will just go behond the Wall and continue living as they all lived just so that in a 100 years they are back to atacking the 7 kingdoms is completly awfull. IT makes all the conflict in the north pointless… IT is 100% nihilistic… The wildlings are fated to live forever warring against the 7 kingdoms and living in poverty and hunger...

 

Also, the murderers in westeros get punished. There are laws. With the wildlings they gain fame and form a new tribe… It just isn t a place somebody used civilization can live in...

Honestly i don't have a cozy idea of Tormund. I disliked this story he told Jon about the bear and half the time it just sounded like he just had raped an actual woman- and afterwards they both laughed about it. Don't like Tormund.

Quote

If he ends up with val and the wildlings it will be in order to incorporate the wildlings into westeros. That is the great goal of the wildlings! How to have acess to the better life in the 7 kingdoms without becoming kneelers. And that is something that jon can definetly do.

There you go great idea :) 

Quote

The ideia that after all this the wildlings will just go behond the Wall and continue living as they all lived just so that in a 100 years they are back to atacking the 7 kingdoms is completly awfull.

yeah, well sorry lol

40 minutes ago, divica said:

IT makes all the conflict in the north pointless… IT is 100% nihilistic… The wildlings are fated to live forever warring against the 7 kingdoms and living in poverty and hunger...

 

good point

as you see I was kinda just half assing it. Honestly haven't really thought about it too much. I generally just ignore the show except for when I want some entertainment (then I read comments about it) or maybe want some hints for the books, but in general I think the books will be just so completely different, even if the same. 

I also think most of humanity will be dead after the Long night- maybe no wildlings left anymore anyway. 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

see #4373

also we don't know, if Jon will kinslay Dany, do we now?  Or under which circumstances 

Yeah, I sure hope he doesn't do that. GRRM often says "for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer" and I just can't see Jon being able to live with himself if he did that.

I know hope isn't a good thing when it comes to this book series, but... I always hoped he'd be so happy to meet his father's sister, and she would be happy to meet his son.

They have both longed for a sense of belonging. He always had that feeling with Arya, but he'd be happy to know his father's family, and she has been without family for so long.

That one would kill the other is so cynical, it would taint the books.

I think there's likely some convoluted Plotzee going on (as @The Fattest Leech puts it) and they were substituted for Arianne and fAegon in many of the later storylines.

I think the show ending was a bizarre mashup of how Benioff/Weiss wanted things to be, and self-glorification via Tyrion, as well as justifying their bad decisions all along.

Edited by Le Cygne

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