Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Timm said:

I like this theory, that they had a half decent plan, that they then self sabotaged.

But why? 

With regards to Cersei and her vanishing pregnancy, they do have form. It may have been an accident that they set up Gendry as the true born heir, but set him up they did, and then they ignored what they had done (except perhaps a final nod, where he is legitimised).

How many children did Scarlett o'Hara have?

@Le Cygnehas drawn attention to their constant "what ifs?"  ie what surprise can we spring that the audience did not see coming?

The problem is that twists and surprises don't make good storytelling, in and of themselves.  In fact, they can subvert good storytelling, if they're just random events.

Arya killing the Night King, rather than Jon, was another of those random twists in the plot.

[Ghostlydragon]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

One poster has made this translation:-

“”I got into the books late and when I started I read the about Crow’s Eye (Euron Greyjoy) to get a feel of who my character was. And I was about to explode.  He is the coolest character ever. He is demonic. He is merciless he has magic. He has killed everyone. He has no moral. He cut out everyone’a tongues and they accepted it. . He dranks Shade of the Evening so his lips are purple he has an eye patch. Fuck yeah! I get to have an eyepatch!. Mads Mikkelsen did ten roles with eyepatches and now I get mine! . And then I get to the meeting with Dan and David and they say: “It’s too cliche. No eyepatch. And no blue shade”. And I don’t want...I was just hired for the world’s biggest tv series so I don’t want to be like “Eh guys...” So I just go “Yes yes “ and then I get the role and he is just a semi horny pirate” He goes onto talk about his first scene which the host remarks was good. To which Pilou answers: “That was quotes from the book. That’s what was so annoying. We did the first scene, which is quotes from the book and then we do the King’s Moat” He proceeds to make an exasperated fart like noice here. You know the sound you make to symbolise something you love getting absolutely recked. And then he says: “And then we basically rebooted the character in season seven and eight and I thought: “Everyone hates this character anyway, so I might as well have fun”. He continues thus: “I loved it until season five. After that I became a part of it and I have only seen my own scenes in after editing” . I didn’t care anymore and I didn’t want to watch it” He proceeds with: “I’ve started to listen to the books and think “Holy fucking shit. This is good. What have we done”. The host also proceeds to point out that Tyrion’s dialogue has gone to shit too. You’re very welcome

I always knew that with his reference to Dragonbinder that he had read the books. It's great to see some honesty from him. I guess cause he speaks in Danish there is no issue since D&D will probably never find this.

[Le Cygne]

20 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

The Euron actor recently did a podcast in which he allegedly makes blunt criticisms of the TV show, as in the year since the finale, he actually read all the books (or rather, listened to them on audiobook).

Unfortunately, the podcast is in Danish.  Does anyone know Danish well enough to make cited quotes from this?  Or know other people who in turn known Danish?

https://www.reddit.com/r/naath/comments/gop1w3/spoilers_main_euron_greyjoy_speaks_out/
 

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

One poster has made this translation:-

“”I got into the books late and when I started I read the about Crow’s Eye (Euron Greyjoy) to get a feel of who my character was. And I was about to explode.  He is the coolest character ever. He is demonic. He is merciless he has magic. He has killed everyone. He has no moral. He cut out everyone’a tongues and they accepted it. . He dranks Shade of the Evening so his lips are purple he has an eye patch. Fuck yeah! I get to have an eyepatch!. Mads Mikkelsen did ten roles with eyepatches and now I get mine! . And then I get to the meeting with Dan and David and they say: “It’s too cliche. No eyepatch. And no blue shade”. And I don’t want...I was just hired for the world’s biggest tv series so I don’t want to be like “Eh guys...” So I just go “Yes yes “ and then I get the role and he is just a semi horny pirate” He goes onto talk about his first scene which the host remarks was good. To which Pilou answers: “That was quotes from the book. That’s what was so annoying. We did the first scene, which is quotes from the book and then we do the King’s Moat” He proceeds to make an exasperated fart like noice here. You know the sound you make to symbolise something you love getting absolutely recked. And then he says: “And then we basically rebooted the character in season seven and eight and I thought: “Everyone hates this character anyway, so I might as well have fun”. He continues thus: “I loved it until season five. After that I became a part of it and I have only seen my own scenes in after editing” . I didn’t care anymore and I didn’t want to watch it” He proceeds with: “I’ve started to listen to the books and think “Holy fucking shit. This is good. What have we done”. The host also proceeds to point out that Tyrion’s dialogue has gone to shit too. You’re very welcome

Another one tells the truth!

[Le Cygne]

As for rewatchability, I can't rewatch any of it. There are so many good things to watch, and this is just so bad, why.

I remember one scene that was close to the books in season 1, Jorah and Dany talking about the grasslands, that slipped in without them butchering it. Maybe one could go and pick a few nice scenes like that, but...

What would be the point, as lost as they are amongst the rest, the rest is nothing special at all, and often just nonsense and offensive, and amounts to nothing in the end. There are so many better things to watch.

What was the point in the show? They just forgot all about it. They wouldn't even let Dany remember Drogo in the end. She named her dragon for him. They just used her and the dragons for their Satan nonsense.

There are so many things they just forgot about. They started things from the books, then abandoned them, because they never understood or cared.

Found the quote, this was a gift from the books:

“The Dothraki sea,” Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew. “It’s so green,” she said.

“Here and now,” Ser Jorah agreed. “You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.”

That thought gave Dany the shivers. “I don’t want to talk about that now,” she said. “It’s so beautiful here, I don’t want to think about everything dying.”

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

As for rewatchability, I can't rewatch any of it. There are so many good things to watch, and this is just so bad, why.

I remember one scene that was close to the books in season 1, Jorah and Dany talking about the grasslands, that slipped in without them butchering it. Maybe one could go and pick a few nice scenes like that, but...

What would be the point, as lost as they are amongst the rest, the rest is nothing special at all, and often just nonsense and offensive, and amounts to nothing in the end. There are so many better things to watch.

What was the point in the show? They just forgot all about it. They wouldn't even let Dany remember Drogo in the end. She named her dragon for him. They just used her and the dragons for their Satan nonsense.

There are so many things they just forgot about. They started things from the books, then abandoned them, because they never understood or cared.

If only the series had been adapted by Vince Gilligan or David Chase.

But, there's no point wishing for things that never happened.  After reading about their performance at the Austin Film Festival, I just don't understand why Benioff and Weiss were ever chosen. 

[Ghostlydragon]

34 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

As for rewatchability, I can't rewatch any of it. There are so many good things to watch, and this is just so bad, why.

I remember one scene that was close to the books in season 1, Jorah and Dany talking about the grasslands, that slipped in without them butchering it. Maybe one could go and pick a few nice scenes like that, but...

What would be the point, as lost as they are amongst the rest, the rest is nothing special at all, and often just nonsense and offensive, and amounts to nothing in the end. There are so many better things to watch.

What was the point in the show? They just forgot all about it. They wouldn't even let Dany remember Drogo in the end. She named her dragon for him. They just used her and the dragons for their Satan nonsense.

There are so many things they just forgot about. They started things from the books, then abandoned them, because they never understood or cared.

Agreed. I sold my s5 and s6 sets off nearly a year ago but I just sold s1-s4 last week. As good as episodes like the bear and the maiden fair are, I just can't rewatch any of it knowing where it went. At least with Doctor Who having the worst episode of all time, nothing from abything before the most recent series sets any of it up so I can rewatch everything up to Peter Capadi's finale happily but that's not the case with thrones sadly.

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If only the series had been adapted by Vince Gilligan or David Chase.

But, there's no point wishing for things that never happened.  After reading about their performance at the Austin Film Festival, I just don't understand why Benioff and Weiss were ever chosen. 

I'm doing a rewatch of Better Call Saul and wow, what a difference. I'm looking at how they set up things from the start, the first season. And then they blossomed over time. And they carried it through all the way to five seasons later.

It's beautiful to see how they did this, and how true they were to the characters and story all along.

[Le Cygne]

16 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Agreed. I sold my s5 and s6 sets off nearly a year ago but I just sold s1-s4 last week. As good as episodes like the bear and the maiden fair are, I just can't rewatch any of it knowing where it went. At least with Doctor Who having the worst episode of all time, nothing from abything before the most recent series sets any of it up so I can rewatch everything up to Peter Capadi's finale happily but that's not the case with thrones sadly.

Yeah, same here. To rewatch it would be a constant, hey, this thing you are watching now, it doesn't mean anything.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

As for rewatchability, I can't rewatch any of it. There are so many good things to watch, and this is just so bad, why.

I remember one scene that was close to the books in season 1, Jorah and Dany talking about the grasslands, that slipped in without them butchering it. Maybe one could go and pick a few nice scenes like that, but...

What would be the point, as lost as they are amongst the rest, the rest is nothing special at all, and often just nonsense and offensive, and amounts to nothing in the end. There are so many better things to watch.

What was the point in the show? They just forgot all about it. They wouldn't even let Dany remember Drogo in the end. She named her dragon for him. They just used her and the dragons for their Satan nonsense.

There are so many things they just forgot about. They started things from the books, then abandoned them, because they never understood or cared.

Found the quote, this was a gift from the books:

“The Dothraki sea,” Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew. “It’s so green,” she said.

“Here and now,” Ser Jorah agreed. “You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.”

That thought gave Dany the shivers. “I don’t want to talk about that now,” she said. “It’s so beautiful here, I don’t want to think about everything dying.”

If they wanted a tragic ending how about this?

Dany burns the Red Keep, but she never wilfully murders civilians.  Jon has no reason to believe she will be a terrible Queen.  But, she makes plain   that she expects Sansa to swear fealty, and he knows that Sansa will never do so, and that Arya and Bran will die alongside Sansa.  So, he makes the decision that will tear him apart for the rest of his life.  Just as Ned sacrificed his honour to protect him, so he sacrifices his honour to protect Ned's children.  

Turning Dany into a mad dog that had to be put down was a cowardly cop out.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If they wanted a tragic ending how about this?

Dany burns the Red Keep, but she never wilfully murders civilians.  Jon has no reason to believe she will be a terrible Queen.  But, she makes plain   that she expects Sansa to swear fealty, and he knows that Sansa will never do so, and that Arya and Bran will die alongside Sansa.  So, he makes the decision that will tear him apart for the rest of his life.  Just as Ned sacrificed his honour to protect him, so he sacrifices his honour to protect Ned's children.  

Turning Dany into a mad dog that had to be put down was a cowardly cop out.

Well, I was with you until the Sansa part. I resent the show putting Sansa in this position (I can't even call her Sansa, so let's go with Sandra).

(correction, I meant show above, not books)

It's using their ridiculous Sandra creation, who they constantly change according to whoever's plot her body is propping up at the moment, as a plot device.

Also... Arya is the one Jon loves, and in the show, it was both Arya and Sansa (your sisters) that supposedly had to fear the wrath of Dany (as if).

Also... they kept using women in cat fights with other women, and this is yet another one. Sandra and Dany cat fight. It's sexist and tiresome and enough already.

I don't see Jon intentionally killing Dany, period. If someone kills her, it would be better that it's Arya, she is, after all an assassin, and it would not be kinslaying for her.

Jon killing Dany is just plain creepy, cynical, and yeah, sexist, too. I'm so sick of all of these contrived and nasty plot devices. It's not organic.

Dany would not kill Jon's sisters, period. Nor would they kill his aunt. So why even put everyone in these positions at all?

If Dany's plot point is that she has to die, then honor her character by letting her make a grave mistake while trying to do good, and dying that way. Make it poetic.

Not just some nasty plot device. How to get from point A to point B. Make it part of her journey. She doesn't really want to rule anymore, I don't think.

She's already admitted to herself she doesn't plant trees, and she dreams of the house with the red door, she knows her limitations and would hang it all up if she could.

I get a lot of ambiguity from her story so far, so carry that through into the rest of the story, to the conclusion. I am pretty sure GRRM will, unless he's lost his touch.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, I was with you until the Sansa part. I resent the books putting Sansa in this position (I can't even call her Sansa, so let's go with Sandra).

It's using their ridiculous Sandra creation, who they constantly change according to whoever's plot her body is propping up at the moment, as a plot device.

Also... Arya is the one Jon loves, and in the show, it was both Arya and Sansa (your sisters) that supposedly had to fear the wrath of Dany (as if).

Also... they kept using women in cat fights with other women, and this is yet another one. Sandra and Dany cat fight. It's sexist and tiresome and enough already.

I don't see Jon intentionally killing Dany, period. If someone kills her, it would be better that it's Arya, she is, after all an assassin, and it would not be kinslaying for her.

Jon killing Dany is just plain creepy, cynical, and yeah, sexist, too. I'm so sick of all of these contrived and nasty plot devices. It's not organic.

Dany would not kill Jon's sisters, period. So why even put everyone in these positions at all?

If Dany's plot point is that she has to die, then honor her character by letting her make a grave mistake while trying to do good, and dying that way. Make it poetic.

Not just some nasty plot device. How to get from point A to point B. Make it part of her journey. She doesn't really want to rule anymore, I don't think.

She's already admitted to herself she doesn't plant trees, and she dreams of the house with the red door, she knows her limitations and would hang it all up if she could.

I get a lot of ambiguity from her story so far, so carry that through into the rest of the story, to the conclusion. I am pretty sure GRRM will, unless he's lost his touch.

It's not my ideal ending, but at least Dany keeps her integrity, this way.  It could simply be about conflicting politics, not cat-fighting. Dany  takes the view that the Seven Kingdoms will disintegrate if she gives the North independence (Dorne, the Vale, etc, will demand it too).  Sansa is adamant that the North must go its own way.  She may have considerable respect and admiration for Daenerys (and actually thanks her for what she did in the War for the Dawn).  She doesn't snipe at her at Winterfell, but their political ambitions cannot be reconciled.

[Le Cygne]

I like both Sansa and Dany, and it's just not right to use Sansa or Dany this way.

The problem is there hadn't been a Sansa on the show for a long time. They threw her and her story out the window a long time ago.

I do not see anyone wanting the North to go their own way, it's suicide for the people, and if there's a Stark king, absolutely absurd not to mention insulting.

It's also a really dull plot. It's very this happens so that happens. Not deep.

I'd rather see Dany having some internal conflict that's integral to her journey as a whole. I'd rather see her having a crisis of wanting to do well, but not being able to.

And as for Sansa, the show used her as a plot device. She has a story of her own in the books, and she doesn't even seem to want to be queen. They gave her a tiara to make up for season 5.

I'm questioning this whole "political ambition" contrivance on the part of both women. I don't think it's that simple in either case. I don't think replacing one bad plot with another is necessary.

In other words, we don't have to go with what they did at all. Surely GRRM has a better ending in mind, but even if they didn't know about it, a good writer could come up with something good.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I like both Sansa and Dany, and it's just not right to use Sansa or Dany this way.

The problem is there hadn't been a Sansa on the show for a long time. They threw her and her story out the window a long time ago.

I do not see anyone wanting the North to go their own way, it's suicide for the people, and if there's a Stark king, absolutely absurd not to mention insulting. It's also a really dull plot.

I'd rather see Dany having some internal conflict that's integral to her journey as a whole. I'd rather see her having a crisis of wanting to do well, but not being able to.

And as for Sansa, the show used her as a plot device. She has a story of her own, and in the books, she doesn't even seem to want to be queen. They gave her a tiara to make up for season 5.

I'm questioning this whole "political ambition" contrivance on the part of both women. I don't think it's that simple in either case. I don't think replacing one bad plot with another is necessary.

In other words, we don't have to go with what they did at all. Surely GRRM has a better ending in mind, but even if they didn't know about it, a good writer could come up with something good.

I'd expect the the climax of the books to be the War for the Dawn, not the battle for Kings Landing.  In that case, Northern Independence may not be very relevant.

[Le Cygne]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'd expect the the climax of the books to be the War for the Dawn, not the battle for Kings Landing.  In that case, Northern Independence may not be very relevant.

Yeah, that would be better. And no ninja turtles, please.

Arya jumping out of nowhere and Jon screaming will never not be funny. Also the darkness, the stupid darkness.

Every time I watch LOTR, the battle of Helm's Deep, I think how beautifully lit it was, and laugh at GoT some more.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, that would be better. And no ninja turtles, please.

Arya jumping out of nowhere and Jon screaming will never not be funny. Also the darkness, the stupid darkness.

Every time I watch LOTR, the battle of Helm's Deep, I think how beautifully lit it was, and laugh at GoT some more.

Apart from skateboarding Legolas (and I can see that was intended to appeal to younger viewers) the Battle of Helms Deep was great. One can always pick holes in the military tactics, but nothing matched sending light cavalry charging against dead people who were invulnerable to them, or positioning your soldiers outside the castle walls, with trenches dug *behind* them.

Is it impossible to hire the services of a good medieval military historian to advise on battle scenes?

[SeanF]

In fact, following on the from the last, was it impossible to hire the services of a good medieval historian generally?  Fantasy doesn't have to follow history exactly, but if you set a fantasy within a 14th or 15th century-type European world, society ought to operate in a broadly similar fashion, and people should have broadly similar values.

So, the secret annulment of a marriage is not worth the paper it's written on (otherwise, we would never have had the English Reformation);  and no marriage is going to be considered valid unless it's performed before witnesses (hundreds of witnesses in the case of a royal marriage);  demanding fealty from enemies you have defeated in battle is the norm;  demanding fealty from people who seek protection from you against their enemies is the norm;  capital punishment for traitors is the norm;  any monarch or high lord will respond badly to insults to them or their people, because if they don't, insults will escalate to something worse;  reciting all of your titles is a part of identifying who you are and what your status is; being worried about rival claims to the throne is rational, not paranoid;  murdering half the nobility and the leaders of the State religion is going to cause people to turn against you, etc.

[Ghostlydragon]

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Is it impossible to hire the services of a good medieval military historian to advise on battle scenes?

Definitely not.  I mean there are YouTube vids of plenty of people who know this stuff.

But anyone with common sense knows that you use castle walls for a reason and never send a lightly armoured cavalry into an enemy you can't even see even with fire weapons - speaking of that, I find it hard to believe there wasn't an inferno after the Dothraki died. This isn't star wars where the lightsaber turns off when dropped. The entire area should have gone up in flames.

But who in their right mind puts an army outside the walls and doesn't focus on archery and using trenches for first line of defence? And having siege weapons at the front where they can apparently only be used once too?

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Definitely not.  I mean there are YouTube vids of plenty of people who know this stuff.

But anyone with common sense knows that you use castle walls for a reason and never send a lightly armoured cavalry into an enemy you can't even see even with fire weapons - speaking of that, I find it hard to believe there wasn't an inferno after the Dothraki died. This isn't star wars where the lightsaber turns off when dropped. The entire area should have gone up in flames.

But who in their right mind puts an army outside the walls and doesn't focus on archery and using trenches for first line of defence? And having siege weapons at the front where they can apparently only be used once too?

Just as at the end, why were the Golden Company stationed outside of Kings Landing?  You'd want to make use of the city walls, and failing that, you'd draw the attackers in for street fighting.  The kind of person that Cersei was would embed her soldiers among the civilian population.

[Le Cygne]

Anyone could have told Benioff/Weiss no to the many obvious bad moves they made.

HBO didn't seem to care about anything but keeping the gravy train rolling. Given the lucky combination of the good source material and the enormous amounts of money thrown at it, that wasn't hard to do.

It was a good ole boys club. HBO said the boys are awesome, just look at the awards we bought them! No good writers on the regular staff, just two who carried water for them, and the directors were whittled down similarly.

Benioff/Weiss surrounded themselves with yes men. They delighted in doubling down on the nasty things they did to spite the critics, who also mostly kept the gravy train rolling. Gotta keep access to get those clicks.

The show could have been great. Instead it was a water cooler show that everyone caught onto as a piece of junk by the time it ended. The final act of The Emperor's New Clothes, but it had been obvious for a long time.

They could have brought on good people and listened to them, but they chose not to.

And seriously, they could have just listened to the author of the books. The careful plotting of the books was a gift only a fool would cast aside, but they did. And yeah, they ran out of books, but good writers could have built upon that solid foundation.

Instead they made a foundation of sand, shifting sands, quicksand. And the show sank.

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Anyone could have told Benioff/Weiss no to the many obvious bad moves they made.

HBO didn't seem to care about anything but keeping the gravy train rolling. Given the lucky combination of the good source material and the enormous amounts of money thrown at it, that wasn't hard to do.

It was a good ole boys club. HBO said the boys are awesome, just look at the awards we bought them! No good writers on the regular staff, just two who carried water for them, and the directors were whittled down similarly.

Benioff/Weiss surrounded themselves with yes men. They delighted in doubling down on the nasty things they did to spite the critics, who also mostly kept the gravy train rolling. Gotta keep access to get those clicks.

The show could have been great. Instead it was a water cooler show that everyone caught onto as a piece of junk by the time it ended. The Emperor's New Clothes, but it had been obvious for a long time.

They could have brought on good people and listened to them, but they chose not to.

And seriously, they could have just listened to the author of the books. The careful plotting of the books was a gift only a fool would cast aside, but they did. And yeah, they ran out of books, but good writers could have built upon that solid foundation.

Instead they made a foundation of sand, shifting sands, quicksand. And the show sank.

You can watch series like Devil's Crown, or I Claudius, made with a fraction of D & D's budget in the 1970's, and see just how superior these are - written by people who understood characterisation and plotting - and who had done the research into the periods they were depicting.