Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The criticism from the bookists may have gone down during s5, not sure how noticeably so - however the criticisms from the showists drastically increased.

 

Before that there wasn't that much complaints about the show, I don't think - the critics made fun of the sexposition I guess, other than that ppl disliked the anticlimactic Yara rescue attempt and that's it as far as I can recall.

Very few people liked Talisa (I was one of the few who did not mind her) or Dany's plot in Qarth.  There was certainly criticism of Jaime seemingly raping Cersei, and the way that Shae  did a 180 degree turn against Tyrion and Sansa.  Also the way that Shae's murder was done in such a way as to whitewash Tyrion.

But, so long as they had a lot of book material to adapt, people generally rated the show highly.  

With hindsight, one can see that a lot of the problems that overwhelmed the show in Season 7 and 8 were apparent in earlier seasons.  When D & D came up with wholly original material (eg Dany in Qarth) it tended to be of poor quality.  They liked to go for shocks, rather than for proper character development.  They chose to sanctify some characters (eg Tyrion) while vilifying others (eg Stannis) in ways that just unbalanced the story.   

[Corvinus85]

14 hours ago, Mystical said:

Well it should be pointed out that the NK was defeated by a valyrian steel dagger. Valyrian steel is supposedly forged with dragon fire. Yet dragon fire can't hurt the NK.

 

14 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Well maybe the dragonfire needs a middle man lol, who knows how that magic stuff works? It's certainly not a 1st tier plot hole the way the contradiction pointed out above is lol.

 

Hm might've been cool if he turned out to be immune to the dragonglass zergrush and projectiles but would be vulnerable to valsteel, requiring a more daunting 1-3 on 1 melee combat.

While never explained, the presence of the heart tree may have also played a factor. But regardless, the concept was once again copied from LOTR. The One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires from whence it came. 

Dragonglass dagger (+ heart tree) = Mount Doom

NK = One Ring

[Pink Fat Rast]

39 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

While never explained, the presence of the heart tree may have also played a factor. But regardless, the concept was once again copied from LOTR. The One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires from whence it came. 

Dragonglass dagger (+ heart tree) = Mount Doom

NK = One Ring

Wait, what heart tree - the one in Winterfell or the one way up North where he was created? Or the Wf one was connected to the ritual one and conjured its "presence"?

 

Also Arya's dagger was valyrian / dragonsteel, not dragonglass - the one he was made with was dragonglass.

Btw the Ring also was destructible by dragonfire but none were left - Balrogs weren't brought up in the books, not sure if anywhere else lol.

 

The idea that he might be uniquely immune to either (but that immunity might be undone in the presence of a weirwood tree) wasn't brought up in the show, even though that's what the primary trap+test should've been instead of the dragonfire - which already proved useless in s7.

 

[Corvinus85]

24 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Wait, what heart tree - the one in Winterfell or the one way up North where he was created? Or the Wf one was connected to the ritual one and conjured its "presence"?

 

Also Arya's dagger was valyrian / dragonsteel, not dragonglass - the one he was made with was dragonglass.

Btw the Ring also was destructible by dragonfire but none were left - Balrogs weren't brought up in the books, not sure if anywhere else lol.

 

The idea that he might be uniquely immune to either (but that immunity might be undone in the presence of a weirwood tree) wasn't brought up in the show, even though that's what the primary trap+test should've been instead of the dragonfire - which already proved useless in s7.

 

Nothing was brought up in the show. It's possible the heart tree that he was tied up to is Winterfell's tree, since Winterfell shouldn't have existed then, but I don't recall how they looked like.

I'm pretty sure the One Ring couldn't be destroyed by dragon fire, only the other Rings of Power could.

[Pink Fat Rast]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Nothing was brought up in the show. It's possible the heart tree that he was tied up to is Winterfell's tree, since Winterfell shouldn't have existed then, but I don't recall how they looked like.

I'm pretty sure the One Ring couldn't be destroyed by dragon fire, only the other Rings of Power could.

Hm well Gandalf talked about it either in the fireplace chapter or Elrond's council, so it can be looked up at some point lol.

 

The "heart tree" was surrounded by stones arranged in a spiral, like the symbol they tended to make out of body parts (and possibly the horns on his head, not sure atm?), and that was where Bran found him hanging around with the wight army when he got marked.

 

Unless it was like a thing where the NK was there in the far past, marked Bran from the future and then waited for 8000+ years until that future moment so he could show up there the next night - in which case why not the next second right? - it's quite safe to assume that that was a present vision and the Tree was beyond the Wall.

[Count Balerion]

Yes, Gandalf said something about ti, either in Shadow of the Past or Council of Elrond.

I didn't mind Talisa either. Of course, I hadn't yet read the books. What bothered me was that Robb was a bit of a jerk.

One thing I hated in season 4 was the torture scenes. I just didn't watch them. I'd forgotten about them until recently.

[Morte]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Very few people liked Talisa (I was one of the few who did not mind her) or Dany's plot in Qarth.  There was certainly criticism of Jaime seemingly raping Cersei, and the way that Shae  did a 180 degree turn against Tyrion and Sansa.  Also the way that Shae's murder was done in such a way as to whitewash Tyrion.

I had no problems with Talisa, just thought it made Rob look too good.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

With hindsight, one can see that a lot of the problems that overwhelmed the show in Season 7 and 8 were apparent in earlier seasons.  When D & D came up with wholly original material (eg Dany in Qarth) it tended to be of poor quality.  They liked to go for shocks, rather than for proper character development.  They chose to sanctify some characters (eg Tyrion) while vilifying others (eg Stannis) in ways that just unbalanced the story.   

I essentially stopped watching the show (just read and watched summaries and singular scenes) with season two, because I was so disappointed with Qarth and how Littlefinger spoiled his plans to the viewers. But most of my friends were still very happy with the show and found ways to justify almost everything up to season six or seven (some even till season eight, because they thought, that D&D will at least get the fight against the Others right... Oh, well).

[Prince of the North]

11 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

And don't forget his ice javelin is also somehow immune to dragonfire 

And don't forget that the NK tossed an ice javelin...like...a mile and took out a dragon.  But...he couldn't toss one about a hundred feet and take out Jon Snow

[Lord Varys]

There was always a lot of criticism of the show from book readers, the changes to Cersei and Catelyn in season 1 weren't exactly popular, either. In fact, I for one didn't really like Ned the super swordsman, which was completely unncessary.

If I recall correctly, @Ran and @Linda never had much love for the TV Cersei, with Linda also not particularly liking Lena Headey in the role in general.

But season 2 really dealt a strong blow to a lot of people - for me it was Qarth, especially during one of my few rewatches, but also, and to a much higher degree, the ruination of Jon Snow's story with Qhorin Halfhand. That was powerful stuff in the books - a couple of guys, in the middle of nowhere, hunted by a superior force with no chance to outrun them, and then the final decision that one had to kill the other so the mission might be a success. Instead the show turned that in joke and nonsense.

A love story for Robb wasn't that bad - if they had expanded on Jeyne Westerling and given more detail to the actual story which was pretty good. They could have had a genuine romance there with Robb and Jeyne, while her mother and uncle had more dubious motives. The issue was that the dialogue was so bad, and the character of Talisa so nonsensical conceived - a black-haired Volantene woman of the highest birth works as a field medic in the Westerlands? How much milk of the poppy do you need to drink for that to make sense? A man like Robb needs to be retarded to marry such a woman, in fact, the way he was brought up would make it very unlikely he would even consider her as a bride (unless she was a Volantene noblewoman coming with her own retainers and a giant dowry), much less actually marry. With Jeyne it is quite clear why he does - he dishonored her and she was a woman of high birth and he effectively guest in her castle. All that was pointed out at the time by Linda, whose comments back there helped me put the finger on what I didn't like with the that particular plot.

That nonsense with Jaime killing his cousin was also pretty nonsensical, now that I dimly recall that - man, how I'm never going to rewatch that shit.

Overall, the standard talk from the TV fans was that such changes make sense, streamline things, highlight important future developments, etc. I don't think the 'show only' fandom was particularly critical of the show before season 5, possibly only after seasons 6 and 7. But those were never my circles.

7 hours ago, Morte said:

I essentially stopped watching the show (just read and watched summaries and singular scenes) with season two, because I was so disappointed with Qarth and how Littlefinger spoiled his plans to the viewers. But most of my friends were still very happy with the show and found ways to justify almost everything up to season six or seven (some even till season eight, because they thought, that D&D will at least get the fight against the Others right... Oh, well).

The Littlefinger thing was a major issue among book fans early in season 2, when we had that stupid scene where Gillen had his weird 'I know you are fucking your brother' talk with Headey - something that made no sense whatsoever neither within show nor within book context - followed by Littlefinger teleporting around and Littlefinger not being liked by anyone. This was a major blow to characterization, especially since they season 1 had Littlefinger sort of in character - aside from the first Varys-Littlefinger dialogue (which isn't how they would talk amongst themselves) and that weirdo 'I'm going to fuck them' confession scene with Ros. But aside from that Gillen played Littlefinger as he was in the books, and he was also written in that manner. The character from season 2 onwards has basically nothing in common with George's Littlefinger.

I recall a lot of people liking the Arya-Tywin scenes, but with hindsight that was just wasted time and utterly pointless - the entire point there was to have certain cast members interact with each other so they are seen on screen. There was no narrative point to that, especially not doing it as often as they did - three times, I think.

Arya had a story there in the books, and that was to be lost in a giant castle, to feel as powerless as a mouse, not to hang out with the big guys incognito. If the people had cared about the actual story and had cast good actors to play Weese and the old women and some of Gregor's men there could have been much better scenes there.

 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Before that there wasn't that much complaints about the show, I don't think - the critics made fun of the sexposition I guess, other than that ppl disliked the anticlimactic Yara rescue attempt and that's it as far as I can recall.

I completely forgot that this was even a thing. It is really great to see how I get that shit out of my system. I don't even recall what season that was - don't remind me.

[Morte]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

the ruination of Jon Snow's story with Qhorin Halfhand. That was powerful stuff in the books - a couple of guys, in the middle of nowhere, hunted by a superior force with no chance to outrun them, and then the final decision that one had to kill the other so the mission might be a success. Instead the show turned that in joke and nonsense.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That nonsense with Jaime killing his cousin was also pretty nonsensical, now that I dimly recall that - man, how I'm never going to rewatch that shit.

Oh Gods... I forgot that shit... Yes, that was pretty awful, too.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, the standard talk from the TV fans was that such changes make sense, streamline things, highlight important future developments, etc.

Yes, that was essentially what friends told me for seven seasons, starting with the Qarth-storyline. And then I pointed out how they wasted a good opportunity for world building and how the calmer plot in Qarth would have contrasted very well with the action in Westeros from a storytelling perspective, they were: "Nah, it'll fine...".

They also didn't really understood why it was so awful to see an idiot-Littlefinger telling his plans to everybody. One of my friend said that the exposition of Littlefinger was necessary because the audience would not get his plot if not told right to their face...

[Mystical]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I recall a lot of people liking the Arya-Tywin scenes, but with hindsight that was just wasted time and utterly pointless - the entire point there was to have certain cast members interact with each other so they are seen on screen. There was no narrative point to that, especially not doing it as often as they did - three times, I think.

I actually did like Maisie and Charles together on screen. However it made both Tywin and Arya look like idiots. Tywin freaking Lannister finds out that his cupbearer is actually a highborn, northern lady and he just leaves her behind. Erm, isn't he at war with the North? That's an excellent hostage right there. And Arya doesn't seriously attempt to take out Tywin (Jaquen could probably have given her some pointers or poison) or use one of her 3 free kills on him.

50 minutes ago, Morte said:

They also didn't really understood why it was so awful to see an idiot-Littlefinger telling his plans to everybody. One of my friend said that the exposition of Littlefinger was necessary because the audience would not get his plot if not told right to their face...

With today's audience you would probably have to.

[Ghostlydragon]

15 hours ago, Mystical said:

I actually did like Maisie and Charles together on screen. However it made both Tywin and Arya look like idiots. Tywin freaking Lannister finds out that his cupbearer is actually a highborn, northern lady and he just leaves her behind. Erm, isn't he at war with the North? That's an excellent hostage right there. And Arya doesn't seriously attempt to take out Tywin (Jaquen could probably have given her some pointers or poison) or use one of her 3 free kills on him.

That's so true. And leaving her to serve the Mountain is insane. This isn't commanding him to kill Ellia's children. A highborn Northerner is a valuable hostage no matter what house she is from. Leaving her with the Mountain and his men isn't gonna go well. Look at how commoners are treated by him. Tywin should have had Arya sent to Casterly Rock immediately.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Morte said:

They also didn't really understood why it was so awful to see an idiot-Littlefinger telling his plans to everybody. One of my friend said that the exposition of Littlefinger was necessary because the audience would not get his plot if not told right to their face...

Well, that kind of argument is just stupid. Season 1 did it much better, not to mention the fact that GoT (last seasons aside) remained a rather complex show. Those weird ideas that names had to be changed so that people would remember people, etc. never made much sense, either.

And if you look at, say, the subtle plotting in the first episode of Rome, or how things are build up there it is pretty insulting to assume GoT had to be in your face with plots. Yes, Octavion sort of explained everything at the end, but there are little things like Caesar actually using Brutus as an unwitting pawn to deliver the message to Pompey that his men are close to rebelling because of the missing eagle.

This was the kind the ASoIaF schemes should be depicted in an adaptation. Subtle looks and facial expression, dialogue spoken in a careful manner, so the audience could get hints that not everything there was as it seemed.

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

I actually did like Maisie and Charles together on screen. However it made both Tywin and Arya look like idiots. Tywin freaking Lannister finds out that his cupbearer is actually a highborn, northern lady and he just leaves her behind. Erm, isn't he at war with the North? That's an excellent hostage right there. And Arya doesn't seriously attempt to take out Tywin (Jaquen could probably have given her some pointers or poison) or use one of her 3 free kills on him.

The point here is just that this wasn't Arya's story at all - she wasn't hanging out with Tywin, her time at Harrenhal was about something else entirely. And a proper adaptation would have found a way to depict this.

Charles Dance is a great actor but one could have utilized him in another manner - both in season 2 but, especially, later on in seasons 3-4. But the really grievous issue there is that they sacrificed precious screen time for repetitive scenes which basically had no plot relevance at all, and where making them look ridiculous. That was the same they did with the High Sparrow in later scenes over and over again to the point that I was asking myself why anyone would want to see this.

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

With today's audience you would probably have to.

See above.

[Count Balerion]

Egad. Jaime killing his cousin. I hadn't even read the books yet, but my reaction was "What!?" This doesn't at all mean, of course, that I'd turned on the show. But also wasn't big on Qarth.

[BlackLightning]

On 5/28/2020 at 6:12 AM, Mystical said:

You know, if one were to read just this about the character without any other knowledge, one might think to themselves 'that sounds like an evil prick'. No one would mistake that person for a saint.

Lets face it, the trouble started when they didn't adapt Tyrion's look. They decided to pretty him up from his book counter part and then did the same to his character traits.

I actually didn't have a problem with them "prettying Tyrion up." I and a handful of other readers don't really like how the "ugly" characters (chiefly Tyrion and Brienne) are made uglier. Especially not in the case of Brienne. However, I understand why GRRM did what he did and I have no problem with it. Sure, I would've not been gratuitous but it all makes sense. 

The trouble isn't about Tyrion's misshapen, scarred appearance (outside of him being a dwarf it doesn't matter to be honest) and more about his characteristics and behaviors.

The purpose of his scarred, maimed appearance is to basically reflect upon what kind of person he actually is.

On 5/27/2020 at 12:19 PM, SeanF said:

Oh, for sure, a lot of people have commented about how Episodes 5 and 6 rip off the ending of Mockingjay. 

In the end, I think they decided that Tyrion had to be a saint (a blithering idiot to most viewers) and that required the crude vilification of Daenerys.

One possible ending to the books is this.  Tyrion = Iago, Jon, Othello, Dany, Desdemona, Sansa, Emilia, Bran, Cassio.

Tyrion "the villain", according to Martin,  is desperately jealous of the relationship between Jon and Dany.  He persuades Jon , I think,  not that Dany is unfaithful, but she is a threat to Jon's family. Jon kills her, and realises he was played. Sansa unravels the plot, Bran inherits the Queen's/Captain's place. 

I support this.

If Tyrion is a major villain and the villain of the Big 6 (which most of all of you acknowledged), then there absolutely has to be some kind of final confrontation at the end between Tyrion and the Big 5.

As it stands, Tyrion is the glue that holds all of them together.

Especially since Tyrion and Sansa are still married.

If you really think Tyrion won't have nefarious designs on Sansa and Winterfell, you're mistaken if not foolish. And if you really think that Sansa is going to willfully go back to Tyrion and that her family won't do anything to prevent that after being reunited, think again.

That actually may be the reason why Daenerys and the Starks come into conflict. Not saying that I'm convinced that they will but Tyrion may demand Sansa to be handed over to him and Daenerys (not knowing what is truly going on) may support Tyrion.

Another reason why Daenerys and the Starks may clash is religion. Dany already has a lot of support from the red priesthood of R'hllor and only bound to get more. Not only that but Dany is also slated to be religiously tied with the Dothraki.

All the Starks hold true to the old gods of the North and they aren't like to just shrug it off in favor of the red priests. Especially in the case that the red priests seem to make it their mission to burn weirwood trees and godswoods.

I know religious persecution/tensions and wars of religion aren't a thing yet, but I am 98% sure that it is coming. Martin says that things have gotten very dark in Westeros and, with the Faith Militant being restored, I can't envision how religious persecution won't become a thing.

And if they are getting awfully dark in The Winds of Winter, what does that say about A Dream of Spring when the continent is expected to be overrun with zombies, dragons, emotionless eunuch soldiers (aka robots) and their scary elemental overlords.

[Le Cygne]

Tyrion is the Benioff/Weiss self-insert, and they glorified him accordingly. They made Dany bow to his wisdom and then die by his wisdom - they turned her into Satan and him into a Saint. And they replaced Sansa with their Sandra monster, because Sansa had the nerve to reject him.

They made both Dany and Sandra honor Tyrion. They even made the sex slave and Daario honor Tyrion. They were laughably transparent. To the point the actor who played him said he was so responsible and moral, his only challenge was how to best use his awesome intelligence.

Shae the prostitute he kidnapped and put in mortal danger for his own convenience really loved him! Benioff/Weiss turned "the great crime of his soul" according to GRRM into self-defense, a momentary setback until "the gift" found new ways to bless the world (arranging chairs, brothels).

Books are a different story.

[Le Cygne]

On 6/3/2020 at 3:17 PM, Prince of the North said:

And don't forget that the NK tossed an ice javelin...like...a mile and took out a dragon.  But...he couldn't toss one about a hundred feet and take out Jon Snow

That's hilarious. That and Jon screaming at the dragon will never not be funny. And Arya Ninja Turtle.

All the damn fools in the dark. They should have shot the whole last season in the dark, and at least spared us the visuals.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Tyrion is the Benioff/Weiss self-insert, and they glorified him accordingly. They made Dany bow to his wisdom and then die by his wisdom - they turned her into Satan and him into a Saint. And they replaced Sansa with their Sandra monster, because Sansa had the nerve to reject him.

They made both Dany and Sandra honor Tyrion. They even made the sex slave and Daario honor Tyrion. They were laughably transparent. To the point the actor who played him said he was so responsible and moral, his only challenge was how to best use his awesome intelligence.

Shae the prostitute he kidnapped and put in mortal danger for his own convenience really loved him! Benioff/Weiss turned "the great crime of his soul" according to GRRM into self-defense, a momentary setback until "the gift" found new ways to bless the world (arranging chairs, brothels).

Books are a different story.

I'm convinced that the sanctification of Tyrion is probably the biggest single change that they made, compared to the books.  Sanctify "the villain" among the six main characters, and you then have to make big changes to the others to compensate.

[Pink Fat Rast]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I actually didn't have a problem with them "prettying Tyrion up." I and a handful of other readers don't really like how the "ugly" characters (chiefly Tyrion and Brienne) are made uglier. Especially not in the case of Brienne. However, I understand why GRRM did what he did and I have no problem with it. Sure, I would've not been gratuitous but it all makes sense. 

The trouble isn't about Tyrion's misshapen, scarred appearance (outside of him being a dwarf it doesn't matter to be honest) and more about his characteristics and behaviors.

The purpose of his scarred, maimed appearance is to basically reflect upon what kind of person he actually is.

I support this.

If Tyrion is a major villain and the villain of the Big 6 (which most of all of you acknowledged), then there absolutely has to be some kind of final confrontation at the end between Tyrion and the Big 5.

As it stands, Tyrion is the glue that holds all of them together.

Especially since Tyrion and Sansa are still married.

If you really think Tyrion won't have nefarious designs on Sansa and Winterfell, you're mistaken if not foolish. And if you really think that Sansa is going to willfully go back to Tyrion and that her family won't do anything to prevent that after being reunited, think again.

That actually may be the reason why Daenerys and the Starks come into conflict. Not saying that I'm convinced that they will but Tyrion may demand Sansa to be handed over to him and Daenerys (not knowing what is truly going on) may support Tyrion.

Another reason why Daenerys and the Starks may clash is religion. Dany already has a lot of support from the red priesthood of R'hllor and only bound to get more. Not only that but Dany is also slated to be religiously tied with the Dothraki.

All the Starks hold true to the old gods of the North and they aren't like to just shrug it off in favor of the red priests. Especially in the case that the red priests seem to make it their mission to burn weirwood trees and godswoods.

I know religious persecution/tensions and wars of religion aren't a thing yet, but I am 98% sure that it is coming. Martin says that things have gotten very dark in Westeros and, with the Faith Militant being restored, I can't envision how religious persecution won't become a thing.

And if they are getting awfully dark in The Winds of Winter, what does that say about A Dream of Spring when the continent is expected to be overrun with zombies, dragons, emotionless eunuch soldiers (aka robots) and their scary elemental overlords.

The series wouldn't be complete without a religious conflict like this, but imo with these 2  it also wouldn't be complete if that conflict wasn't also over how to fight the Others - some subsets realizing they need to collaborate and figure out their connection / common origins, combine their green + fire visions to get the most complete picture possible, but the other apes would just be obsessed with their dogmas getting reinforced.

And the FM also getting involved as the probably man-made religion of the 3 but every bit as fanatical as the Reds - and then the "wrong" fanatic group making some kinda RW-like "purge", fucking everything up and causing a major setback, sth like that.

Euron and the other FM obviously partaking as well, at the very least.