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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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6 hours ago, $erPounce said:

Comparing the book material with the TV series, it strikes me time and again how superficial the TV series comes across.

I know that the TV series is a vastly oversimplified version of the books. The first season only adapts about 25-35% of the books' original dialogue. Many meaningful interactions and dialogues from the books go to waste as a result.  Note that some episodes of season 1 consist of about 40% non-book material. Some non-canon scenes were certainly good. Most I consider unnecessary. I would have preferred them to be closer the the books, even for the first season.

I consider the adaptation of Catelyn II (S1E1) to be astonishingly bad.  The book succeeds much better in depicting the relationships between Catelyn and Eddard. The tensions come across much better. Compare for yourself:

Dialogues from A Song of Ice and Fire

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EDDARD STARK: I will refuse him.

CATELYN TULLY: You cannot. You must not.

EDDARD STARK: My duties are here in the north. I have no wish to be Robert’s Hand.

CATELYN TULLY: He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can’t you see the danger that would put us in?

EDDARD STARK: Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!

CATELYN TULLY: You knew the man. The king is a stranger to you. Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face.

EDDARD STARK: Honors?

CATELYN TULLY: In his eyes, yes.

EDDARD STARK: And in yours?

CATELYN TULLY: And in mine. He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?

EDDARD STARK: Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven. And Joffrey … Joffrey is …

CATELYN TULLY: … crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.

EDDARD STARK: Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

CATELYN TULLY: Perhaps not, but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.

EDDARD STARK: What is it?

DESMOND: My lord, Maester Luwin is without and begs urgent audience.

EDDARD STARK: You told him I had left orders not to be disturbed?

DESMOND: Yes, my lord. He insists.

EDDARD STARK: Very well. Send him in.

CATELYN TULLY: Perhaps we should close the windows.

MAESTER LUWIN: My lord, pardon for disturbing your rest. I have been left a message.

EDDARD STARK: Been left? By whom? Has there been a rider? I was not told.

MAESTER LUWIN: There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one, but it must have been brought by someone in the king’s party. We have had no other visitors from the south.

CATELYN TULLY: A wooden box, you say?

MAESTER LUWIN: Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal.

EDDARD STARK: A lens, what has that to do with me?

MAESTER LUWIN: I asked the same question. Clearly there was more to this than the seeming.

CATELYN TULLY: A lens is an instrument to help us see.

MAESTER LUWIN: Indeed it is.

CATELYN TULLY: What is it that they would have us see more clearly?

MAESTER LUWIN: The very thing I asked myself. I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.

EDDARD STARK: Let me have it, then.

MAESTER LUWIN: Pardons, my lord. The message is not for you either. It is marked for the eyes of the Lady Catelyn, and her alone. May I approach?

EDDARD STARK: Stay. What is it? My lady, you’re shaking.

CATELYN TULLY: I’m afraid. It’s from Lysa. It will not make us glad.There is grief in this message, Ned. I can feel it.

EDDARD STARK: Open it.

CATELYN TULLY: Lysa took no chances. When we were girls together, we had a private language, she and I.”

EDDARD STARK: Can you read it?

CATELYN TULLY: Yes.

EDDARD STARK: Then tell us.

MAESTER LUWIN: Perhaps I should withdraw.

CATELYN TULLY: No. We will need your counsel.

EDDARD STARK: What are you doing?

CATELYN TULLY: Lighting a fire

EDDARD STARK: Maester Luwin—

CATELYN TULLY: Maester Luwin has delivered all my children. This is no time for false modesty.

EDDARD STARK: My lady, tell me! What was this message?

CATELYN TULLY: A warning. If we have the wits to hear.

EDDARD STARK: Go on.

CATELYN TULLY: Lysa says Jon Arryn was murdered.

EDDARD STARK: By whom?

CATELYN TULLY: The Lannisters. The queen.

EDDARD STARK: Gods. Your sister is sick with grief. She cannot know what she is saying.

CATELYN TULLY: She knows. Lysa is impulsive, yes, but this message was carefully planned, cleverly hidden. She knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands. To risk so much, she must have had more than mere suspicion. Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert’s Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth.

EDDARD STARK: The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid.

MAESTER LUWIN: The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true.

CATELYN TULLY: You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?

EDDARD STARK: The Others take both of you. My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.

MAESTER LUWIN: A different time, a different king.

EDDARD STARK: Yes. Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.

CATELYN TULLY: No.

EDDARD STARK: Yes, you must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.

MAESTER LUWIN: Gods will, not for many years.

EDDARD STARK: Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming.

CATELYN TULLY: What of the other children?

EDDARD STARK: Rickon is very young. He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me.

CATELYN TULLY: I could not bear it.

EDDARD STARK: You must. Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.

CATELYN TULLY: Yes, but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven.

EDDARD STARK: I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie. Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it.

CATELYN TULLY: Keep him off the walls, then. You know how Bran loves to climb.

EDDARD STARK: Thank you, my lady. This is hard, I know.

MAESTER LUWIN: What of Jon Snow, my lord?

CATELYN TULLY: Jon must go.

EDDARD STARK: He and Robb are close. I had hoped …

CATELYN TULLY: He cannot stay here. He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.

EDDARD STARK: You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.

CATELYN TULLY: They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.

EDDARD STARK: And none of them has ever been seen at court! The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—

MAESTER LUWIN: Another solution presents itself. Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.

EDDARD STARK: He asked to join the Night’s Watch?

MAESTER LUWIN: There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.

EDDARD STARK: And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch. Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …”

MAESTER LUWIN: A hard sacrifice. Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.

EDDARD STARK: Very well, I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben.

MAESTER LUWIN: When shall we tell Jon?

EDDARD STARK: When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.

Dialogues from Game of Thrones

  Hide contents

 

EDDARD STARK: I’m a Northman. I belong here with you, not down south in that rat’s nest they call a capital.

CATELYN TULLY: I won’t let him take you.

EDDARD STARK: The king takes what he wants. That’s why he’s king.

CATELYN TLLY: I’ll say, ‘Listen, fat man, you are not taking my husband anywhere. He belongs to me now.’

EDDARD STARK: How did he get so fat?

CATELYN TULLY: He only stops eating when it’s time for a drink.

DESMOND: It’s Maester Luwin, my lord.

EDDARD STARK: Send him in.

MAESTER LUWIN: Pardon, my lord, my lady. A rider in the night from your sister.

EDDARD STARK: Stay.

CATELYN TULLY: This was sent from the Eyrie. What’s she doing at the Eyrie? She hasn’t been back there since her wedding.

EDDARD STARK: What news?

CATELYN TULLY: She’s fled the capital. She says Jon Arryn was murdered. By the Lannisters. She says the king is in danger.

EDDARD STARK: She’s fresh widowed, Cat. She doesn’t know what she’s saying.

CATELYN TULLY: Lysa’s head would be on a spike right now if the wrong people had found that letter. Do you think she would risk her life, her son’s life, if she wasn’t certain her husband was murdered?

MAESTER LUWIN: If this news is true, and the Lannisters conspire against the throne, who but you can protect the king?

CATELYN TULLY: They murdered the last Hand. Now you want Ned to take the job.

MAESTER LUWIN: The king rode for a month to ask Lord Stark’s help. He’s the only one he trusts. You swore the king an oath, my lord.

CATELYN TULLY (to LUWIN): He spent half his life fighting Robert’s wars. He owes him nothing.

CATELYN TULLY (To EDDARD): Your father and brother rode south once on a king’s demand.

MAESTER LUWIN: A different time. Different king.

 

 

They are just so bad at this, even when it's right there for them to use. They frequently have characters do or say the opposite, and swap who says or does what.

They swapped Catelyn and Ned in that conversation, then they cut Ned out of the action entirely at one point, making it look like a servant was deciding for him.

They also did that in season 1 in a pivotal conversation between Sansa and Arya. They completely swapped who said what. There are many examples throughout the series.

Characters are not interchangeable like that. This is basic characterization they miss.

Edited by Le Cygne

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5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They are just so bad at this, even when it's right there for them to use. They frequently have characters do or say the opposite, and swap who says or does what.

They swapped Catelyn and Ned in that conversation, then they cut Ned out of the action entirely at one point, making it look like a servant was deciding for him.

They also did that in season 1 in a pivotal conversation between Sansa and Arya. They completely swapped who said what. There are many examples throughout the series.

Characters are not interchangeable like that. This is basic characterization they miss.

How on earth could they replace "Edd, fetch me a block" with "Olly, get me my sword", or "Only Cat", with "your sister?"

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

How on earth could they replace "Edd, fetch me a block" with "Olly, get me my sword", or "Only Cat", with "your sister?"

Oh god, that was painful. Why, why, why!!!!!!! Only fools would not keep the iconic lines.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but not them.

(If they ever remade Citizen Kane, they'd make his dying word "Sled.")

Edited by Le Cygne

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14 hours ago, SeanF said:

How on earth could they replace "Edd, fetch me a block" with "Olly, get me my sword", or "Only Cat", with "your sister?"

I'm assuming that one was done for the casuals, who forgot who Cat was. Just my guess and I agree it was pretty stupid; even more stupid when you realize in the tv adaption Littlefinger doesn't have a fall guy, since D&D wanted Joffrey to rip out Marillion's tongue in season 1, for some daft reason. I mean they could have literally had Joffrey do that to any musician to get the same result.

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On 2/3/2021 at 6:35 PM, Le Cygne said:

They are just so bad at this, even when it's right there for them to use. They frequently have characters do or say the opposite, and swap who says or does what.

They swapped Catelyn and Ned in that conversation, then they cut Ned out of the action entirely at one point, making it look like a servant was deciding for him.

They also did that in season 1 in a pivotal conversation between Sansa and Arya. They completely swapped who said what. There are many examples throughout the series.

Characters are not interchangeable like that. This is basic characterization they miss.

That's really striking in this scene. Of course, but that's far from the only problem with the scene. 

In the books, there's a lot of secretiveness surrounding that one letter, hidden under a lens, which is in a code language and is eventually thrown into the fire. It gives much more of an impression that the game of thrones is more dangerous than shown in the TV series.  As a result, the tension and threat is expressed much better than with an ordinary letter (without code language or other hiding options). 

I also generally have the impression that the dialogues from the book really do more with the characters. The inner struggles are much better expressed and both Eddard and Catelyn have to make difficult choices. Their relationship is good, but they also have (near) conflicts with each other (over Jon's fate, for example).

In the TV series, Eddard and Catelyn don't have to make difficult choices in this scene. Instead, it is only Catelyn who refuses to accept Eddard's decision and is a burden on his shoulders. It is actually also inappropriate that a joke was inserted where a serious discussion should actually be happening.

The scene in the book has an undeniably better build-up and final conclusion than was the case in the TV series. There is simply a big difference in mood/atmosphere between the two.

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6 hours ago, $erPounce said:

That's really striking in this scene. Of course, but that's far from the only problem with the scene. 

In the books, there's a lot of secretiveness surrounding that one letter, hidden under a lens, which is in a code language and is eventually thrown into the fire. It gives much more of an impression that the game of thrones is more dangerous than shown in the TV series.  As a result, the tension and threat is expressed much better than with an ordinary letter (without code language or other hiding options). 

I also generally have the impression that the dialogues from the book really do more with the characters. The inner struggles are much better expressed and both Eddard and Catelyn have to make difficult choices. Their relationship is good, but they also have (near) conflicts with each other (over Jon's fate, for example).

In the TV series, Eddard and Catelyn don't have to make difficult choices in this scene. Instead, it is only Catelyn who refuses to accept Eddard's decision and is a burden on his shoulders. It is actually also inappropriate that a joke was inserted where a serious discussion should actually be happening.

The scene in the book has an undeniably better build-up and final conclusion than was the case in the TV series. There is simply a big difference in mood/atmosphere between the two.

Good points. The show really shortchanged Catelyn, again and again.

The secret language she shares with Lysa is character building. In that moment, you picture them as girls growing up together. These are shortcuts the author used to show they are sisters, without spelling it out, and there's instant depth to it.

Likewise, the use of nicknames conveys shared history and intimacy. The audience knows this implicitly because it's how people are. They instantly know the ones who called her Cat went way back with her. One would be a fool not to use such things.

This isn't Sesame Street, and the audience isn't stupid. If you write rich scenes, they will follow you.

As you say, she's presented not as a partner to Ned, but a burden. Later, they had her say she was the worst woman that ever lived for not loving Jon Snow. And yes, the joke was out of place, and furthermore, been there done that, when Robert first arrived.

They are so bad at writing dialogue (as well as everything else). You can't be drawn into a sterile story. Often they just bailed on the dialogue and basically had them mime their way through scenes, but of course the actors had no idea what was going on, so...

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On 2/6/2021 at 4:00 PM, Angel Eyes said:

She was a burden to him in the books, like when she kidnapped Tyrion.

Ned is a burden to Cat and his family with his love for his bastard, and his suicidal code of honor which has him Cersei tell what he found out before he approaches Robert.

Cat tried to advance House Stark and keep the family together ... but Ned pretty much stabbed them all in the back. Cersei's children were never Ned's responsibility.

Edited by Lord Varys

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On 1/31/2021 at 3:49 PM, Cas Stark said:

This piece pretty much sums up everything that the ranters have been saying for years.

 

https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-season-8-hurt-rewatch-value-reason/

Ah, this looks like an interesting read, thanks for the link.  And, HI, hope you are doing well. 

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9 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Ah, this looks like an interesting read, thanks for the link.  And, HI, hope you are doing well. 

Nice to see you're back.

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Fan reporters like Set_Locations_IRL have been crunching the numbers, based on paperwork filings, on just how much money HBO lost on the failed Long Night pilot that everyone said was a bad idea since day one:

Over $15 million USD, in 2019 money.

The failed Game of Thrones pilot, considered the most expensive TV pilot in history, cost about $10 million.  Not long ago in Season 8 on the Jimmy Kimmel show D&D said they weren't entirely sure, given all the variables, but the figure they generally heard was $10 million, or maybe $10.6 million (given all the ripple effects on third party contracts it's difficult to tell exactly how much was spent on it).  

I used an online adjusting-for-inflation calculator:  10.6 million USD in 2009 would be something like 12.8 million in 2019.  

So whatever the specific rounding, yes, the Long Night pilot officially cost more than the Game of Thrones pilot.

They did say at the time they were willing to spend more money on it than an unproven 2009 fantasy pilot.

And Long Night pilot was a bigger loss, as at least SOME of the money and resources on the Game of Thrones pilot could be salvaged; Winterfell sets, many of the costumes and armor, etc. Not a lot, but SOME of all that prep work (in contrast, the Morocco shoot for the Daenerys wedding was a total loss).  

Long Night pilot, however, was a complete and utter waste. And not just of money, but of..."momentum" coming off the main series. An ENTIRE YEAR went to waste. They lost their Northern Ireland filming hub, who explicitly warned them "make more than one pilot at the same time".

They said the only reason they gave D&D a second chance after the first failed pilot was "to make back all of our foreign pre-sales by at least burning off season one"....this is a question I'd shout at the face of an HBO exec if they ever dared come to a public Q&A panel:  how stupid is it to take out massive foreign pre-sales on a PILOT, which BY DEFINITION, is a project you're not sure will succeed?  Like gambling on stock market futures.

(sigh) the silver lining here is that Long Night was the last great failure of "Richard Plepler's HBO"....the NEW regime under AT&T is a whole new set of people.  So at least the petaq who ordered Long Night aren't in charge anymore.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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On 2/10/2021 at 2:15 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, one thing is that despite telling Ned not to trust Robert because Robert has changed from when they knew each other, she chooses to do the same with Littlefinger. Sure, let's trust Littlefinger, he'll surely not want to cause a war that will endanger my husband's life. Another is the shitstorm that arresting Tyrion caused, since Tywin used it as an excuse to raid, pillage and plunder and otherwise pirate his weasley black guts out.

And this is a nail in the argument in the books that love is worthless; because of Catelyn's maternal instincts, she ignites a continent-wide civil war.

There was no reason not to trust Littlefinger.  In real life, if I were summoned to a meeting with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Head of MI5, and the former told me that so and so had attempted to murder my son, I’d believe him.

Tywin’s decision to wage war was on Tywin.  He had plenty of alternatives.

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14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Still no reason to take him if it's going to piss Tywin off like that; Tywin reacts to any slight with the most brutal means he can muster at the time, be it drowning an entire castle by diverting a river, sacking a city because of Aerys' disrespect, or having Tysha gang-raped (that one is unknown but fits the pattern). Catelyn would know how Tywin reacts to things via her father unless she's been living under a rock for her entire life.

It is quite obvious why Cat had to take Tyrion there. Everybody would have done it for any of the following reasons:

1. She had reason to believe the man had tried to murder her son.

2. She had reason to believe the man was involved in the murder of a previous Hand of the King.

3. She had reason to believe that he recognizing her means he knows what she was up to, meaning him getting back to KL means her husband and daughters are in immediate danger.

4. She had reason to believe that he knew stuff Catelyn needed to know, too, so she could get to the bottom of this plot.

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On 2/8/2021 at 11:32 AM, The Dragon Demands said:

Fan reporters like Set_Locations_IRL have been crunching the numbers, based on paperwork filings, on just how much money HBO lost on the failed Long Night pilot that everyone said was a bad idea since day one:

Over $15 million USD, in 2019 money.

The failed Game of Thrones pilot, considered the most expensive TV pilot in history, cost about $10 million.  Not long ago in Season 8 on the Jimmy Kimmel show D&D said they weren't entirely sure, given all the variables, but the figure they generally heard was $10 million, or maybe $10.6 million (given all the ripple effects on third party contracts it's difficult to tell exactly how much was spent on it).  

I used an online adjusting-for-inflation calculator:  10.6 million USD in 2009 would be something like 12.8 million in 2019.  

So whatever the specific rounding, yes, the Long Night pilot officially cost more than the Game of Thrones pilot.

They did say at the time they were willing to spend more money on it than an unproven 2009 fantasy pilot.

And Long Night pilot was a bigger loss, as at least SOME of the money and resources on the Game of Thrones pilot could be salvaged; Winterfell sets, many of the costumes and armor, etc. Not a lot, but SOME of all that prep work (in contrast, the Morocco shoot for the Daenerys wedding was a total loss).  

Long Night pilot, however, was a complete and utter waste. And not just of money, but of..."momentum" coming off the main series. An ENTIRE YEAR went to waste. They lost their Northern Ireland filming hub, who explicitly warned them "make more than one pilot at the same time".

They said the only reason they gave D&D a second chance after the first failed pilot was "to make back all of our foreign pre-sales by at least burning off season one"....this is a question I'd shout at the face of an HBO exec if they ever dared come to a public Q&A panel:  how stupid is it to take out massive foreign pre-sales on a PILOT, which BY DEFINITION, is a project you're not sure will succeed?  Like gambling on stock market futures.

(sigh) the silver lining here is that Long Night was the last great failure of "Richard Plepler's HBO"....the NEW regime under AT&T is a whole new set of people.  So at least the petaq who ordered Long Night aren't in charge anymore.

Wow

On 2/12/2021 at 2:52 AM, SeanF said:

There was no reason not to trust Littlefinger.  In real life, if I were summoned to a meeting with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Head of MI5, and the former told me that so and so had attempted to murder my son, I’d believe him.

Tywin’s decision to wage war was on Tywin.  He had plenty of alternatives.

Exactly

@Angel Eyes the dichotomy between trusting Robert and trusting Littlefinger is very different. Catelyn was telling Ned to be wary of Robert because he had changed over the years and he may respond poorly to being told no after making such an effort. She was wary of Littlefinger when she first met him but never did she dream that he had become one of the most evil people on the west side of the Narrow Sea.

There's a big difference between post-Rebellion Robert and post-Rebellion Littlefinger. One is an drunken, depressed and lazy. The other is wicked and exploitative.

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You don't fight gods with sticks and stones:  you storm the gates of heaven.

They have sown the whirlwind, and now I will bring the tempest.

 

Stay tuned. Things are coming to fruition....

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we didn't get a lot of dirt this time. the worst is that septa unella was going to be  raped on camera, but they changed their minds ... without telling the actress. then they made her go through 8 hours of filming while being waterboarded. i don't think it was literal waterboarding, but still ...

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I'm still stunned that after everything that happened with the Sansa rape....they were never afraid.  They never "learned their lesson" - they kept trying to put rape stuff in. Even if it makes sense for Gregor Clegane of all people.

I don't think they ever got "restrained" about things like rape or the noticeably lower level of random nudity Season 5 onwards - meaning Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman. I think other people around them increasingly pressured them to stop doing that.  Grudgingly, as D&D wielded a lot of power. Maybe it came from the network. Maybe it was directors who told the network or vice-versa. I don't know.

But every time they did something right that got wrong in an earlier season, invariably it was someone else's idea. If Season 4 has a well-done night battle? Guess what, Neill Marshall did that IN SPITE OF THEM, not because of them. 

They never "learned" they were insulted at the very idea of being told what not to do.  This is a pervasive aspect of their behavior; telling them not to do something just makes them not want to do it even more.  

And....I think they were genuinely surprised and insulted at all the Sansa rape criticism. "what, this is Emmy-level emoting by Sophie Turner, why aren't you praising us as geniuses?" - my evidence being how they had the Braavos play mock rape critics the following season.  

Season 6 and they still wanted to put a rape scene in with Gregor raping Unella.  Just imagine if that had actually aired, the reactions from all the hype-fandom ...living in denial, who praised Season 6 as "fixing" the show after all the Sansa rape stuff.  Nothing changed.

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1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

we didn't get a lot of dirt this time. the worst is that septa unella was going to be  raped on camera, but they changed their minds ... without telling the actress. then they made her go through 8 hours of filming while being waterboarded. i don't think it was literal waterboarding, but still ...

It's as if Joffrey was the showrunner. They had a cruel streak, and there were many such examples.

46 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

They never "learned" they were insulted at the very idea of being told what not to do.  This is a pervasive aspect of their behavior; telling them not to do something just makes them not want to do it even more.  

Arrogance that only got worse the more the old boy's network rewarded them for their ineptitude.

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5 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I always said they’re more of a book Cersei

This is so. A person with narcissistic personality disorder also automatically has a different view on some characters like book-Cersei than many others. We also see this in the TV series, which we can say is written from book-Cersei's POV.

Quote

Here, allow me to demonstrate:

  • Tywin really is a tough but fair pragamatic ruler, who only resorts to extreme violence for the greater good.

  • Cersei really is a hypercompetent political genius, who outclasses even Tywin according to Tycho Nestoris.

  • Jamie really is a buffoon only good for swinging a sword and being hopelessly in love with Cersei.

  • Tyrion really is a stupid drunkard who thinks he's far smarter than he actually is.

  • Ned really was a dumb country bumpkin too stupid to play the game of thrones and whose honour got him killed.

  • Sansa really is a stupid girl who had to learn how to be vicious and paranoid to be a good ruler from Cersei.

  • Arya really is an unhinged lunatic who'll violently attack anything that provokes her.

  • The direwolves really are just dumb, vicious beasts that are better off being put down.

  • Stannis really is a merciless robot utterly incapable of getting anyone to follow him.

  • The Dornish really are all about fighting and fucking, and they gleefully murder little girls.

  • Margaery really is exactly what Cersei fears, a brilliant seductress who uses her sexuality to manipulate people to achieve her political goals and shut Cersei out of power.

  • Mace really is a useless idiot with no head for politics (or basic human functioning).

  • The High Sparrow and the Faith Militant really are just a bunch of religious fanatics out to disproprotionately punish people for random, petty reasons, and their uprising is completely unrelated to the war crimes of the Lannister regime any reasonable motive.

  • Wildfire really is an effective and controllable weapon.

  • Loras's reputation as a knight really is completely overblown, and the only thing he's good at is being gay.

  • Only idiots need to rely on things like honour, justice and loyalty. Thats why the dumb Starks could barely get anyone in the North to help their dumb cause.

  • Excessive violence and treachery are the real path to power! The North was perfectly content with Bolton rule, Doran was happily subservient to the family that murdered his sister, and the Riverlands apparently didn’t give a shit that Tywin set half their lands on fire. Hell, just look at the way the masses cheered for their beloved and totally legitimate queen Cersei after she bombed the Pope and the Vatican. Realpolitik and wanton brutality all the way, fuck yeah!

The content was originally posted by u/wearenotlegion on Reddit. That was a good observation!

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