Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Ciudad Rodrigo and Badajoz come to mind. The entire episode Sharpe’s Company revolves around the fact that rape pillage and burn is inevitable and Sharpe has to figure how to get his wife and daughter out of the city before they get raped and/or murdered, specifically by his old enemy Obadiah Hakeswill, who’s a specialist in this type of behavior (when he isn’t eyeing up his fellow soldiers’ wives to rape).

Badajoz especially,  4,000 soldiers were killed or maimed fighting their way through a hole in the city's wall, and the victors were in no mood for mercy towards the inhabitants.

Inadvertently, the show runners at least got the sack on the ground right (ignoring the nonsense about bells meaning surrender, when we'd been told "I've never known bells mean surrender".). No way would the soldiers have marched a thousand miles, just to take prisoners.  The Northmen had the deaths of Ned Stark and his retainers, the Red Wedding, and the abuse of Sansa to avenge.  Everyone in the army would have sought revenge for the fact that they were left to fight the Dead on their own.  And the general view among the soldiers would be that the inhabitants had picked a side, and must now reap the consequences.

Everyone among the attackers was responsible for the sack, not just Daenerys.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, there's the bold. I agree, there was a double standard. Dany was doing the standard thing for a ruler of the times during warfare. And in The Bells, they went over the top with Dany, in terms of brutality, it made no sense.

They seemed to enjoy the brutality.

Arya and the Freys is not warfare but personal revenge. Sansa killing Ramsay by acting like Ramsay, and Arya killing the Freys by acting like the Freys, should be the stuff of tragedy. (Not to mention out of character for Sansa.)

Jon killed his aunt, and Tyrion talked him into doing it, after murdering another woman who rejected him, and the show glosses over that. On to the important stuff, frolicking with the dog and joking about brothels.

Look at the end of The Searchers - Ethan stays on the porch. The story shows us this is the impact of what he has felt and done. If you are going to go there with this sort of thing in a story, you need to really go there. The show didn't.

They enjoyed the brutality. The human beings, not so much.

If the series had ended with Tyrion, Sansa, Arya each acknowledging that Daenerys was no worse than any of them, then there would be some consistency, at least.  None of them was in the position to point the finger.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Badajoz especially,  4,000 soldiers were killed or maimed fighting their way through a hole in the city's wall, and the victors were in no mood for mercy towards the inhabitants.

Inadvertently, the show runners at least got the sack on the ground right (ignoring the nonsense about bells meaning surrender, when we'd been told "I've never known bells mean surrender".). No way would the soldiers have marched a thousand miles, just to take prisoners.  The Northmen had the deaths of Ned Stark and his retainers, the Red Wedding, and the abuse of Sansa to avenge.  Everyone in the army would have sought revenge for the fact that they were left to fight the Dead on their own.  And the general view among the soldiers would be that the inhabitants had picked a side, and must now reap the consequences.

Everyone among the attackers was responsible for the sack, not just Daenerys.

Show!Tyrion got something right, in Season 3 he said the North wouldn’t forget what happened at the Red Wedding.

[Le Cygne]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

The only way to rationalise Tyrion's behaviour throught Seasons 7 and 8 is that he was trying to ensure that his siblings did not lose. One could understand that, but it makes Tyrion a traitor - who should never have accepted his position as Hand.  He was prepared to sacrifice thousands in his effort to save Jaime and Cersei.  

Tyrion was a willing participant in advancing the Lannister goals to destroy the Starks and their allies, and take Winterfell. Everything from his wildfire approach to forcibly marrying a Stark hostage.

He wasn't a foot soldier. He had other options, and the show even pointed this out.

He enough gold to buy a ship in his hands, and Shae begged him to come with her and to not forcibly marry Sansa, who clearly didn't want him, and he said no, I'm a Lannister.

That all of this was just swept under the rug and rewarded by the Starks is hilarious. Also, he ends up murdering Shae, and then talking Jon into murdering Dany, yet another woman who didn't want him.

SHAE: Chains?

TYRION: Solid gold from the mines outside Lannisport. Smithed in Casterly Rock.

SHAE: Golden chains.

TYRION: You could buy a ship with these...

SHAE: So, am I invited to your wedding?

TYRION: I didn't ask for this marriage. I didn't want it.

SHAE: No? She's a beautiful girl. You said so yourself.

TYRION: That doesn't mean that- this is duty, not desire.

SHAE: Is that what you will tell yourself when you fuck her?

TYRION: I don't have a choice. My father-

SHAE: Does not rule the world. We can still go across the Narrow Sea.

TYRION: What would I do there? Juggle? I am a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

SHAE: And I'm Shae the funny whore.

Also later, he tried to bribe Bronn (his good "buddy") with Winterfell, like it belonged to him to trade away, after she escaped the Lannisters. I may one day rule the North. I could carve you out a big piece of it.

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Tyrion was a willing participant in advancing the Lannister goals to destroy the Starks and their allies, and take Winterfell. Everything from his wildfire approach to forcibly marrying a Stark hostage.

He wasn't a foot soldier. He had other options, and the show even pointed this out.

He enough gold to buy a ship in his hands, and Shae begged him to come with her and to not forcibly marry Sansa, who clearly didn't want him, and he said no, I'm a Lannister.

That all of this was just swept under the rug and rewarded by the Starks is hilarious. Also, he ends up murdering Shae, and then talking Jon into murdering Dany, yet another woman who didn't want him.

SHAE: Chains?

TYRION: Solid gold from the mines outside Lannisport. Smithed in Casterly Rock.

SHAE: Golden chains.

TYRION: You could buy a ship with these...

SHAE: So, am I invited to your wedding?

TYRION: I didn't ask for this marriage. I didn't want it.

SHAE: No? She's a beautiful girl. You said so yourself.

TYRION: That doesn't mean that- this is duty, not desire.

SHAE: Is that what you will tell yourself when you fuck her?

TYRION: I don't have a choice. My father-

SHAE: Does not rule the world. We can still go across the Narrow Sea.

TYRION: What would I do there? Juggle? I am a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

SHAE: And I'm Shae the funny whore.

Also later, he tried to bribe Bronn (his good "buddy") with Winterfell, like it belonged to him to trade away, after she escaped the Lannisters. I may one day rule the North. I could carve you out a big piece of it.

They wanted to make Tyrion the conscience (!) of the show, when objectively, he's the worst of the main protagonists.  His speech about "evil men" to Jon at the end is like the devil giving a lecture on moral philosophy.

It's hard to take seriously that he's upset for the people of Kings Landing, given that he was in favour of starving them to death, in the previous episode.  But, Cersei would not be doing the starving.  Conversely, he's furious at finding her and Jaime's dead bodies. 

The fandom will argue over Dany, Jon, and the Starks.  I don't think there's much argument that Tyrion was a vile man.

[Count Balerion]

to coin a phrase, tyrion kinda forgot. i may have mentioned my theory that he's actually his stupid twin morion.

CHAPTER DEFENDING ENDING EARLIER, PART 2

they didn't want to outstay their welcome, but to keep up momentum and "always leave them wanting more".

wanted to go out "on a good high place".

D&D came at it from a "position of principle" [!!!].

"s**t's going down, so s**t has to go down." [no comment!]

HBO was an "island of creative freedom" where D-chaps were "trusted to call their own shots".

ending GOT was "not a decision made lightly" but entailed a "significant degree of mournfulness".

benioff didn't "have any friends left". his colleagues were his friends.

D&D opened a bottle of bourbon in their tent and got "introspecive".

leaving GOT was like entering "some weird world where you don't know how people act anymore" (or words to that effect).

"the idea of continuing w/ other writers had never been considered." [interesting. why not?]

[OK, i'm not sure what this note means.] i wrote "if i want a chocolate bar, someone gets a chocolate bar. fun [to think of?] a tyrion joke like that." [???]

it was a "hard-drinking, hard-partying" group. one chap woke up naked and came to the hotel and they asked for ID; another woke up naked on pool slide being kicked in the ribs by an annoyed 8-year-old.

15 mill per episode in season 8.

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

to coin a phrase, tyrion kinda forgot. i may have mentioned my theory that he's actually his stupid twin morion.

CHAPTER DEFENDING ENDING EARLIER, PART 2

they didn't want to outstay their welcome, but to keep up momentum and "always leave them wanting more".

wanted to go out "on a good high place".

D&D came at it from a "position of principle" [!!!].

"s**t's going down, so s**t has to go down." [no comment!]

HBO was an "island of creative freedom" where D-chaps were "trusted to call their own shots".

ending GOT was "not a decision made lightly" but entailed a "significant degree of mournfulness".

benioff didn't "have any friends left". his colleagues were his friends.

D&D opened a bottle of bourbon in their tent and got "introspecive".

leaving GOT was like entering "some weird world where you don't know how people act anymore" (or words to that effect).

"the idea of continuing w/ other writers had never been considered." [interesting. why not?]

[OK, i'm not sure what this note means.] i wrote "if i want a chocolate bar, someone gets a chocolate bar. fun [to think of?] a tyrion joke like that." [???]

it was a "hard-drinking, hard-partying" group. one chap woke up naked and came to the hotel and they asked for ID; another woke up naked on pool slide being kicked in the ribs by an annoyed 8-year-old.

15 mill per episode in season 8.

They left us wishing Seasons 7 and 8 never happened.

[Count Balerion]

God yes.

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

to coin a phrase, tyrion kinda forgot. i may have mentioned my theory that he's actually his stupid twin morion.

CHAPTER DEFENDING ENDING EARLIER, PART 2

they didn't want to outstay their welcome, but to keep up momentum and "always leave them wanting more".

wanted to go out "on a good high place".

D&D came at it from a "position of principle" [!!!].

"s**t's going down, so s**t has to go down." [no comment!]

HBO was an "island of creative freedom" where D-chaps were "trusted to call their own shots".

ending GOT was "not a decision made lightly" but entailed a "significant degree of mournfulness".

benioff didn't "have any friends left". his colleagues were his friends.

D&D opened a bottle of bourbon in their tent and got "introspecive".

leaving GOT was like entering "some weird world where you don't know how people act anymore" (or words to that effect).

"the idea of continuing w/ other writers had never been considered." [interesting. why not?]

[OK, i'm not sure what this note means.] i wrote "if i want a chocolate bar, someone gets a chocolate bar. fun [to think of?] a tyrion joke like that." [???]

it was a "hard-drinking, hard-partying" group. one chap woke up naked and came to the hotel and they asked for ID; another woke up naked on pool slide being kicked in the ribs by an annoyed 8-year-old.

15 mill per episode in season 8.

And a good chunk of that change went towards secrecy. 

[Le Cygne]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

They wanted to make Tyrion the conscience (!) of the show, when objectively, he's the worst of the main protagonists.  His speech about "evil men" to Jon at the end is like the devil giving a lecture on moral philosophy.

It's hard to take seriously that he's upset for the people of Kings Landing, given that he was in favour of starving them to death, in the previous episode.  But, Cersei would not be doing the starving.  Conversely, he's furious at finding her and Jaime's dead bodies. 

The fandom will argue over Dany, Jon, and the Starks.  I don't think there's much argument that Tyrion was a vile man.

What happens when you make a change from this (GRRM calls Tyrion the grayest of the grays, and he's still bitter about Sansa and Shae for rejecting him, and he almost killed Penny):

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

to this:

Dinklage also explained how he felt about Tyrion's trajectory in the show:

He certainly developed a deeper sense of responsibility over the course of the show. He was a pretty irresponsible character to begin with. He used his position as the outcast of his family like an adolescent would. He pushed it in their [the Lannisters’] faces. The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a23778050/peter-dinklage-tyrion-death-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoiler/

... and they made him the star of the show. How can it ever be the same story. It can't. They did a 180 on every bad thing he did that they weren't too blind to see was bad (with their flawed moral sense).

He went from awesome with supposedly funny remarks to awesome with deadly dull pontifications. He was always a saint, just grew to take his sainthood much more seriously! He was widely called St. Tyrion.

Even Jorah adored him. Even Daario honored him. The obligatory honoring Tyrion remarks were endless.

The prostitute he kidnapped adored him, the hostage he forcibly married eagerly knelt for him, the sex slave begged him to do it for free. Prostitutes were always giddy with delight to have sex with him.

He was alone without protection for a time, and yet nothing bad happened (sexual assault was reserved for women). Not even indignity, he was seated at the dais with Dany, then given an unearned position of trust.

They gave him a magic penis and Jon a tiny one. He talked Jon into kinslaying just like he did (kinslaying is fun and easy!) Jon lost Dany, who rejected Tyrion, because why should Jon have her if Tyrion can't?

They made Sansa punish herself for rejecting Tyrion by giving herself to the Boltons. They made her honor Tyrion first, so viewers would say she should have appreciated him. She ended up alone.

And yet there was enough that slipped through so that Branbot would never have chosen him as hand of the king. Branbot settled in for endless trances, so Tyrion was effectively king in the end.

Tyrion's journey was from awesome to awesome. Anyone who didn't think he was awesome paid a price. They either died to get out of his way or were otherwise neutralized. Game of Tyrion, he was always going to win.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

What happens when you make a change from this (GRRM calls Tyrion the grayest of the grays, and he's still bitter about Sansa and Shae for rejecting him, and he almost killed Penny):

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

to this:

Dinklage also explained how he felt about Tyrion's trajectory in the show:

He certainly developed a deeper sense of responsibility over the course of the show. He was a pretty irresponsible character to begin with. He used his position as the outcast of his family like an adolescent would. He pushed it in their [the Lannisters’] faces. The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a23778050/peter-dinklage-tyrion-death-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoiler/

... and they made him the star of the show. How can it ever be the same story. It can't. They did a 180 on every bad thing he did that they weren't too blind to see was bad (with their flawed moral sense).

He went from awesome with supposedly funny remarks to awesome with deadly dull pontifications. He was always a saint, just grew to take his sainthood much more seriously! He was widely called St. Tyrion.

Even Jorah adored him. Even Daario honored him. The obligatory honoring Tyrion remarks were endless.

The prostitute he kidnapped adored him, the hostage he forcibly married eagerly knelt for him, the sex slave begged him to do it for free. Prostitutes were always giddy with delight to have sex with him.

He was alone without protection for a time, and yet nothing bad happened (sexual assault was reserved for women). Not even indignity, he was seated at the dais with Dany, then given an unearned position of trust.

They gave him a magic penis and Jon a tiny one. He talked Jon into kinslaying just like he did (kinslaying is fun and easy!) Jon lost Dany, who rejected Tyrion, because why should Jon have her if Tyrion can't?

They made Sansa punish herself for rejecting Tyrion by giving herself to the Boltons. They made her honor Tyrion first, so viewers would say she should have appreciated him. She ended up alone.

And yet there was enough that slipped through so that Branbot would never have chosen him as hand of the king. Branbot settled in for endless trances, so Tyrion was effectively king in the end.

Tyrion's journey was from awesome to awesome. Anyone who didn't think he was awesome paid a price. They either died to get out of his way or were otherwise neutralized. Game of Tyrion, he was always going to win.

With respect, Dinklage did not understand the character he played.  Despite the two D's best efforst to whitewash him, Tyrion on the show was a thoroughly immoral man, whether you adopt our moral standards, or in-universe moral standards. It would be like Bryan Cranston giving an interview about Walter White and saying he always possessed a strong sense of morality;  or James Gandolfini claiming the same for Tony Soprano.  Much as I loved Walter and Tony as characters, these were bad men, and the show runners and actors never claimed otherwise.  Had the narrative framed Tyrion as the villain (as Martin says he is) then I could equally have enjoyed him as a character.  But I can't, because the narrative tried to frame him as virtuous.

I love most of Scorseses' films about gangsters, but in the end, they pay a price for their villainy.  And,  however much you can see things from their point of view, there is never any doubt that the protagonists are villains.

Tyrion had absolutely no qualms about assisting and enabling the murder of innocents in order to keep in power an adolescent whom he knew to be a psychopath, and a usurper.  On the contrary, he was upset that he did not receive the proper recognition for his good work from his family.  He assisted in the ruin of the Starks, and saw Sansa as his prize for the work he had done.  He only entered his father's chambers at the end of Season 4, in order to murder him.  Parricide is the ultimate sin in this world.  He murdered the woman he had kidnapped, however much the two D's tried to make it look like self-defence.  He had not entered her chamber in order to defend himself.  He sought to reinstate slavery in Meereen.  He gave Daenerys advice that cost the lives of thousands, so desperate was he to save his siblings.  He advocated starving the inhabitants of Kings Landing to death, ignoring the secret passages he had earlier made use of.  He told Jon a pack of lies and half-truths about Daenerys in order to get him to murder her, before kicking him out into the wilderness.

By any objective measure, these were all the actions of a very rotten man. And, he remained a rotten man, despite the two D's best efforts.

[Le Cygne]

37 minutes ago, SeanF said:

With respect, Dinklage did not understand the character he played.  Despite the two D's best efforst to whitewash him, Tyrion on the show was a thoroughly immoral man, whether you adopt our moral standards, or in-universe moral standards. It would be like Bryan Cranston giving an interview about Walter White and saying he always possessed a strong sense of morality;  or James Gandolfini claiming the same for Tony Soprano.  Much as I loved Walter and Tony as characters, these were bad men, and the show runners and actors never claimed otherwise.  Had the narrative framed Tyrion as the villain (as Martin says he is) then I could equally have enjoyed him as a character.  But I can't, because the narrative tried to frame him as virtuous.

I love most of Scorseses' films about gangsters, but in the end, they pay a price for their villainy.  And,  however much you can see things from their point of view, there is never any doubt that the protagonists are villains.

Tyrion had absolutely no qualms about assisting and enabling the murder of innocents in order to keep in power an adolescent whom he knew to be a psychopath, and a usurper.  On the contrary, he was upset that he did not receive the proper recognition for his good work from his family.  He assisted in the ruin of the Starks, and saw Sansa as his prize for the work he had done.  He only entered his father's chambers at the end of Season 4, in order to murder him.  Parricide is the ultimate sin in this world.  He murdered the woman he had kidnapped, however much the two D's tried to make it look like self-defence.  He had not entered her chamber in order to defend himself.  He sought to reinstate slavery in Meereen.  He gave Daenerys advice that cost the lives of thousands, so desperate was he to save his siblings.  He advocated starving the inhabitants of Kings Landing to death, ignoring the secret passages he had earlier made use of.  He told Jon a pack of lies and half-truths about Daenerys in order to get him to murder her, before kicking him out into the wilderness.

By any objective measure, these were all the actions of a very rotten man. And, he remained a rotten man, despite the two D's best efforts.

They constantly whitewashed him, but were so morally bereft, as well as failures as storytellers, they left the job undone.

Three women rejected him and three women went down. Two women were murdered either by his hands or at his instigation. Another bizarrely punished herself while honoring him. They would have loved to kill her, too, but gave her a tiara to spite the critics, and yet she was robbed of her femininity and sexuality thereafter.

They didn't know what they were doing in the sense of running a show or telling a story, but they knew they'd be rewarded by the old boys network. They did know they were putting out these nasty messages, by dehumanizing women. They were so over the top with Dany in the end, it was their undoing (at long last).

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

With respect, Dinklage did not understand the character he played.  Despite the two D's best efforst to whitewash him, Tyrion on the show was a thoroughly immoral man, whether you adopt our moral standards, or in-universe moral standards. It would be like Bryan Cranston giving an interview about Walter White and saying he always possessed a strong sense of morality;  or James Gandolfini claiming the same for Tony Soprano.  Much as I loved Walter and Tony as characters, these were bad men, and the show runners and actors never claimed otherwise.  Had the narrative framed Tyrion as the villain (as Martin says he is) then I could equally have enjoyed him as a character.  But I can't, because the narrative tried to frame him as virtuous.

I love most of Scorseses' films about gangsters, but in the end, they pay a price for their villainy.  And,  however much you can see things from their point of view, there is never any doubt that the protagonists are villains.

Tyrion had absolutely no qualms about assisting and enabling the murder of innocents in order to keep in power an adolescent whom he knew to be a psychopath, and a usurper.  On the contrary, he was upset that he did not receive the proper recognition for his good work from his family.  He assisted in the ruin of the Starks, and saw Sansa as his prize for the work he had done.  He only entered his father's chambers at the end of Season 4, in order to murder him.  Parricide is the ultimate sin in this world.  He murdered the woman he had kidnapped, however much the two D's tried to make it look like self-defence.  He had not entered her chamber in order to defend himself.  He sought to reinstate slavery in Meereen.  He gave Daenerys advice that cost the lives of thousands, so desperate was he to save his siblings.  He advocated starving the inhabitants of Kings Landing to death, ignoring the secret passages he had earlier made use of.  He told Jon a pack of lies and half-truths about Daenerys in order to get him to murder her, before kicking him out into the wilderness.

By any objective measure, these were all the actions of a very rotten man. And, he remained a rotten man, despite the two D's best efforts.

It isn’t as if Dinklage can’t play a villain; he played the cold-hearted mad scientist Bolivar Trask in Days of Future Past and the comedic yet threatening Simon Barsinister in Underdog. The latter role is what I knew Dinklage as before he played Tyrion. 
 

Edit: oh yeah, and he played Richard III. Ironic since Tyrion is heavily based off of Richard III.

[SeanF]

52 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They constantly whitewashed him, but were so morally bereft, as well as failures as storytellers, they left the job undone.

Three women rejected him and three women went down. Two women were murdered either by his hands or at his instigation. Another bizarrely punished herself while honoring him. They would have loved to kill her, too, but gave her a tiara to spite the critics, and yet she was robbed of her femininity and sexuality thereafter.

They didn't know what they were doing in the sense of running a show or telling a story, but they knew they'd be rewarded by the old boys network. They did know they were putting out these nasty messages, by dehumanizing women. They were so over the top with Dany in the end, it was their undoing (at long last).

The pair have remarkably crude attitudes towards women. Either, they are there to be killed horribly, or else to thank their abusers for toughening them up, or else female empowerment means turning into a sadistic torturer like Arya.

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Martin wanted something un-Tolkienesque and D&D provided it. Many of Tolkien’s women are in positions of power and forces in their own right without going mad with it or being sadistic. To give examples, Galadriel is the dominant partner in ruling Lothlorien, is tempted by power and rejects it, Eowyn is a shield maiden who is trusted to defend the weak by her uncle, Luthien helps humiliate Sauron in combat and knocks the devil himself out cold with a spell, and Idril masterminds an escape plan from her city in case it’s attacked and fights like a tiger when her cousin tries to rape her and murder her son.

Good point.  Tolkien gets stick for not including enough women in his tales but his portrayal of women exercising power, whether good like Galadriel, Idril and Melian, or bad like Ancalime, is far more mature and considered than the two D's.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Good point.  Tolkien gets stick for not including enough women in his tales but his portrayal of women exercising power, whether good like Galadriel, Idril and Melian, or bad like Ancalime, is far more mature and considered than the two D's.

Quality over quantity.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Quality over quantity.

With Tolkien's Royal women, I get a real sense of how medieval queens would have exercised power.  They aren't damsels in distress, but they aren't sociopathic butchers, either,

[Count Balerion]

there's also erendis, a rather grey character. a lot of this is tolkien not looking upon women primarily as sex objects. benioff represented "the perv side of the audience" or some such.

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

there's also erendis, a rather grey character. a lot of this is tolkien not looking upon women primarily as sex objects. benioff represented "the perv side of the audience" or some such.

I think a problem with bad forms of grimdark writing or TV is that the authors and producers react to complaints of female underrepresentation by portraying "strong" women as sociopaths, or men in drag, and think lots of sex is adult and realistic.

In the hands of the two D's, Arya became a sadist, and Sansa became Cersei 2.0, which were portrayed as positive, and Dany became a Mad Queen, which was portrayed negatively. 

Whereas, despite writing 60 years ago, Tolkien could write far better about women in positions of authority.  Robyn Hobb is another writer who does that very well, too.  People like Kettricken and Ronica Vestrit are no pushover, but they are decent at heart. 

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think a problem with bad forms of grimdark writing or TV is that the authors and producers react to complaints of female underrepresentation by portraying "strong" women as sociopaths, or men in drag, and think lots of sex is adult and realistic.

In the hands of the two D's, Arya became a sadist, and Sansa became Cersei 2.0, which were portrayed as positive, and Dany became a Mad Queen, which was portrayed negatively. 

Whereas, despite writing 60 years ago, Tolkien could write far better about women in positions of authority.  Robyn Hobb is another writer who does that very well, too.  People like Kettricken and Ronica Vestrit are no pushover, but they are decent at heart. 

I agree, but would not offer that as an excuse. Directly related to these bad representations of women is that the old boys network keeps giving the showrunner jobs to men like Benioff and Weiss.

They were called on these issues all along. I have posted articles sounding the alarm in season 1, here's a good one:

https://www.slantmagazine.com/tv/game-of-thrones-season-one/

Here's a later article, and there were lots of articles like this all along (this article was written before The Bells, which is one huge example of failing women characters):

https://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-throness-ugliest-legacy-failing-women

Here's one pointing out issues with The Bells (there were so many more, this is just handy):

https://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-the-bells-baffling-decision-to-turn-daenerys-into-a-crazy-murderous-ex-girlfriend

The viewers called them on it, too. There were uncritical media takes from those more interested in being fans and keeping access, but there were also honest critiques.

And apart from this, they knew, they aren't babes in the woods, they are grown men who thumbed their noses at critics, every time. There were many examples.

They blamed women for doing things they never would have done, then had the women thank them for doing it to them. It doesn't get more deliberate than that.

And HBO basically said whatever you want, boys.