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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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12 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

waterboarding. yikes. 10 hours?

claustrophobic around water?

 

More like wine.

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23 hours ago, SeanF said:

No surprise that they intended to have her raped.  I'm only surprised that they didn't have the Dothraki rape Daenerys at the start of Season 6, rather than talk about raping her.

They were no doubt going there, but the backlash from "hey let's rape Sansa" stopped them.

What they did with Dany at the end of season 5 was yet another 180 from the books on their part. They love taking big book moments and doing a 180.

Jaime turning down Cersei and writing a new page in the white book... becomes... Jaime pushing the white book to the floor to screw his sister.

And the same here, another 180.

The show sets up yet another rape with a damsel in distress hoping for rescue, her dragon is a wee baby with a tummy ache who needs nap time:

Daenerys is stuck on this beautiful but isolated plateau... [with] a dragon which is mostly sleepy and wants to get better... When she sees the Dothraki, she knows what that means. And her relationship with Drogo was one thing, but Drogo is gone, and she knows in a way he was sort of an anomoly... She drops the ring... Somebody down the line hopefully who means her less harm than the Dothraki will notice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHMuqH7yOQc

And with this obsession, they have once again blown off the positive sexuality for women in the books. In this case, the connection with Drogo that's carried through with Daario, who encourages her to embrace her inner dragon.

Drogon is symbolic of this. And they've completely wiped that out.

In the books, Dany has embraced her dragon, who is herself, and he stands tall beside her... the grass bows before him, he's just killed a horse... she has power over the Dothraki. This is one of my favorite parts of the books, I wanted to see THIS:

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse ... and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky...

The dragon descended on him, roaring, and all at once the poor beast was aflame, yet somehow he kept on running, screaming with every step, until Drogon landed on him and broke his back. Dany clutched the dragon's neck with all her strength to keep from sliding off.

The carcass was too heavy for him to bear back to his lair, so Drogon consumed his kill there, tearing at the charred flesh as the grasses burned around them, the air thick with drifting smoke and the smell of burnt horsehair. Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare, burned hands. In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now?

Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario ...

Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside her.

As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon.

Again and again, they were given these powerful, well thought out storylines that were perfect for the screen, he all but wrote the screenplays for them, and yet they destroyed it all for TRASH.

Edited by Le Cygne

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35 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They were no doubt going there, but the backlash from "hey let's rape Sansa" stopped them.

What they did with Dany at the end of season 5 was yet another 180 from the books on their part. They love taking big book moments and doing a 180.

Jaime turning down Cersei and writing a new page in the white book... becomes... Jaime pushing the white book to the floor to screw his sister.

And the same here, another 180.

The show sets up yet another rape with a damsel in distress hoping for rescue, her dragon is a wee baby with a tummy ache who needs nap time:

Daenerys is stuck on this beautiful but isolated plateau... [with] a dragon which is mostly sleepy and wants to get better... When she sees the Dothraki, she knows what that means. And her relationship with Drogo was one thing, but Drogo is gone, and she knows in a way he was sort of an anomoly... She drops the ring... Somebody down the line hopefully who means her less harm than the Dothraki will notice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHMuqH7yOQc

And with this obsession, they have once again blown off the positive sexuality for women in the books. In this case, the connection with Drogo that's carried through with Daario, who encourages her to embrace her inner dragon.

Drogon is symbolic of this. And they've completely wiped that out.

In the books, Dany has embraced her dragon, who is herself, and he stands tall beside her... the grass bows before him, he's just killed a horse... she has power over the Dothraki. This is one of my favorite parts of the books, I wanted to see THIS:

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse ... and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky...

The dragon descended on him, roaring, and all at once the poor beast was aflame, yet somehow he kept on running, screaming with every step, until Drogon landed on him and broke his back. Dany clutched the dragon's neck with all her strength to keep from sliding off.

The carcass was too heavy for him to bear back to his lair, so Drogon consumed his kill there, tearing at the charred flesh as the grasses burned around them, the air thick with drifting smoke and the smell of burnt horsehair. Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare, burned hands. In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now?

Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario ...

Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside her.

As the western sky turned the color of a blood bruise, she heard the sound of approaching horses. Dany rose, wiped her hands on her ragged undertunic, and went to stand beside her dragon.

A most frustrating cliffhanger, which we've been waiting for the answer for over ten years.  It seems like a Mexican standoff to me.  Out of fifty Dothraki, some at least could shoot Dany, at the price of being roasted. 

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2021 at 3:35 AM, Cas Stark said:

You know, it may be a miracle that they didn't actually harm or kill anyone.

The more that's revealed about the production, the worse Benioff & Weiss come over.  There were the unfunny practical jokes that made Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams cry, the risks to actors' safety, the petty swipes at actors who offended them , the fact that some people considered it a perk of the job to perv on naked actresses, etc.

I do wonder if this pair have any redeeming qualities whatsoever.

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On 5/23/2021 at 9:40 PM, Count Balerion said:

they changed it at the last minute. where have we heard that?

Oh your podcast already covered this chapter of the book - remember we were all shouting "WHY IS NO ONE REPORTING ON THIS?!" (well I was in chatroom shouting)

But it's nice to see it actually grabbing the public's attention.

I...suspect that the masses of the general audience....only really pay attention when it's a cast member saying something on video. They ignore text.  That Last Watch documentary had big impact, even if they weren't directly challenging D&D.

...dear god, if Emilia Clarke ever publicly turns against them, in a video interview, D&D would be over within a week.  And the entire legacy of GoT would collapse, we wouldn't have as many people defending the TV ending as now. If only Emilia came on camera and said "this wasn't the ending at the Season 8 table read, it was a last minute change, they're lying when they say they came up with it in Season 3"....they'd be over in a week. 

Even this, a third-tier character like Septa Unella...look at how much this is circulating, now that it's on video.

Imagine if Jessica Henwick actually said on video what filming the Season 7 naval battle was like. 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Posted (edited)

It's the 10 hours of filming that really stun me - even the actress points out "for a minute and a half long scene?" 

Why did they refilm this so many times?  We've increasingly seen corroboration from other reports that in the later seasons, D&D kept making everyone refilm scenes over and over again, to the point of absurdity. It got worse every season.

The mind boggles at how much of a fraction of overall filming schedule was devoted to endlessly refilming Dany's death scene.  Granted, it's an important scene, but even Kit and Emilia said in their opinion it was excessive.

My running theory is that D&D got increasingly paranoid that their own writing wouldn't hold up to scrutiny, and they...tried to compensate by trying to force the actors to give the "perfect emoting".  There's no such thing, simply because no matter how well the actors performed a scene, even they couldn't elevate it beyond a certain point.

It says something that...in Season 6, the casual viewers liked plot holes like Battle of the Bastards, or even Season 7's Sansa "killing" Littlefinger, because the "power" of the actors non-verbal facial emoting was enough to "carry" the scenes for them......it says something that even morons who were entranced by "the faces" in Seasons 6 and 7....felt the writing in Season 8 was so bad that no amount of emoting by their celebrity-actor-gods could elevate it.  People who said "but look at Sophie-Sansa's FACE!" in Season 7" ....just....could not keep up with the lie in Season 8.

But we heard that from NCW and stuff; even in season 7 D&D were putting a LOT more pressure on everyone, paranoid that the ending had to be "PERFECT!" "This is OUR show, not GRRM!" (according to NCW).....refilming it over and over.

Dear god there are actual movies and TV shows before this mocking tyrannical, petty directors who ask actors to film dozens of takes on failing projects...because they're that insecure.

Professional showrunners would know how many takes actors fan safely film without harming themselves.

Something as simple as "if you ask Kristian Nairn to carry Isaac for 70 takes in a row, literally 70 takes, it might permanently injure his back".  

And this isn't something D&D delegated; she says Weiss was THERE, and...pressured her into doing it anyway?  And that's disturbingly the same speech we've heard D&D give over and over again: "This is IMPORTANT!  Don't you want to be a team player? This is TV history! It's important that Cersei's so angry at Unella she nearly drowns her!"....yeah, that doesn't mean you should film it for 10 hours straight! "Damn it, we want that zombie polar bear!"

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Posted (edited)

What really frightens me are all the dangerous stunts they DIDN'T tell us about, even in Hibberd's book.

What my mind keeps going back to is when Peter Dinklage - a man with dwarfism - did that dangerous real-life stunt jumping into a pool in Season 5, when the Stone Men attack.

They show it at the end of the video.

Now they didn't do it in a river but in controlled circumstances in a pool....but they still had Dinklage, a disabled man, dragged a full 10 feet underwater by stuntmen in scuba gear off-camera (who were themselves weighted down).....GRANTED, there were A LOT of other stuntmen off-camera and around the pool to help him, and they show that they had stuntmen underwater just off-camera with oxygen tanks to give Dinklage air between takes...

...so it doesn't SEEM dangerous to me...

...I don't think this was dangerous for Ian Glenn, but I worry about Dinklage due to his dwarfism.

It doesn't SEEM like a dangerous stunt, because they had a lot of visible precautions in the video...but I wonder...is this another case of them putting a positive spin on something that was actually really dangeorus?

If nothing else it strikes me as another case of "We want Stonehenge AND the Horse":

rather than use CGI for impractical or dangerous shots, D&D would INSIST on actors doing their own stunts. All the time. And just browbeat them into it. Even when it's a handicapped actor being submerged 10 feet underwater (with stuntmen just off-camera with oxygen tanks to rush to his aid) --- why not just use a wind chamber for this shot? Like when Frodo rescues Sam from the river at the end of FOTR? (because their clothes wouldn't look realistically wet?)

But I think of this scene all the time now.

Moreover, the stuntman who played a stone man explained that he ACTUALLY jumped from a height of 21 feet into the river...why?!  Again, it doesn't seem too egregious - they said they worked out ahead of time how deep an object of his weight would plunge into the river, realized it was too shallow, so they dredged it to be deeper, well in advance of actual filming on the scene...and he IS a stuntman....but still....why? When CGI would be safer, for a minor shot?

But as I've said before, I don't worry as much about blatantly dangerous things, like intentionally setting stuntmen on fire - they know that's dangerous, blatantly dangerous, they talk precautions.

What frightens me are the moderately-dangerous things, because they pay less attention to it. Even something as simple as "we want Kit Harington to actually jump over a wall" -  he might break his ankle or something. Kristian Nairn might strain his back just lifting stuff; or WATERBOARDING for TEN HOURS.

And all the stuntmen who *literally fainted from heat exhaustion or cold* from filming battle scenes for a full day!

And don't get me started on the horse-related injuries...

They let a trust fund frat boy run a show with DANGEROUS stunts with flippant indifference for a decade!

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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51 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Moreover, the stuntman who played a stone man explained that he ACTUALLY jumped from a height of 21 feet into the river...why?!  Again, it doesn't seem too egregious - they said they worked out ahead of time how deep an object of his weight would plunge into the river, realized it was too shallow, so they dredged it to be deeper, well in advance of actual filming on the scene...and he IS a stuntman....but still....why? When CGI would be safer, for a minor shot?

(Emphasis mine)

This just seems like another pebble on the mountain of wasteful spending associated with this.  I mean, it would most likely have been much less costly than actually dredging to simply have the actor jump from a lower, safer height for the "entering the water" part and show him at the 21 foot height for the "starting the jump" part and then just...edit them together, right? 

Or, as you say, just CGI it:dunno:  Anyway, the whole thing was just such a travesty and that's a real tragedy.  

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1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

(Emphasis mine)

This just seems like another pebble on the mountain of wasteful spending associated with this.  I mean, it would most likely have been much less costly than actually dredging to simply have the actor jump from a lower, safer height for the "entering the water" part and show him at the 21 foot height for the "starting the jump" part and then just...edit them together, right? 

Or, as you say, just CGI it:dunno:  Anyway, the whole thing was just such a travesty and that's a real tragedy.  

Yes.  Admittedly, the show did look good until they refused to light it, but they must have wasted tens of millions on this type of nonsense.  I wonder if one/both of them is a little on the OCD side.  I will still never really understand all of this pointless expense, angst, danger, reshoots for days and weeks....and NO FUCKING ATTENTION TO THE STORY.  No attention to the writing, the plot, the characters.  

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D&D are very, very poor story tellers.  They were given a once in a lifetime opportunity to work with a terrific group of actors, some of best tradespeople, artists and professionals in the industry, for a channel that knows how to produce quality and epic shows (Rome, Deadwood, The Wire) and an incredible story in ASOIAF.  However, ASOIAF would have challenged the most talented and imaginative of showrunners-given the complexity of the ASOAIF and, especially, since ASOIAF wasn't even finished.  

But D&D, along with all of their other atrocious personal traits, are horrible storytellers.  They simply did not understand the story that they were telling, did not understand that basic storytelling involves certain conventions, one of the most basic is to understand the world you are presenting and have things be consistent in it's expression. An example, both ASOIAF and GOT go to length to explain the Faith of the Seven.  They they present the High Sparrow character-the embodiment of the Faith (extremist one might say). So a viewer would expect that the High Sparrow would espouse the views of the Faith of the Seven to the extreme.  But, D&D have the High Sparrow give a long dissertation on the wastefulness of a shoemaker pursuing a life a study and work to make the best shoes because that led to a life of debauchery.  So he rejected shoemaking.  BUT the problem is that the Smith is one of the Seven-both in ASOIAF and GOT.  So, IN THE GOT WORLD, being a shoemaker and making the best shoes IS honoring the Seven.  NOT something to be rejected.  So D&D were completely inconsistent in their world building, ie how can a viewer understand the High Sparrow when his words and deeds contradict the rules of the world he lives in.

To expand on how D&D do not understand character motivation, see their Season 1 (or maybe 2) commentary on Jon Snow.  Their supplemental explanation of Jon Snow's character when he got to the Night's Watch was that he was seeking a father figure.  Huh?  That makes zero sense.  Jon was raised, nearly exclusively, around men with numerous father figures-Lord Eddard, Maester Leuwin, Rodrik Cassel, even Benjen Stark.  Jon had father figures in abundance.  What is blatantly obvious in ASOIAF is Jon Snow is looking for an identity.  A blind man could see that.  To misunderstand something so basic, so obvious was very, very telling early on that the show would not be quality.  I have said numerous times, GOT is great spectacle, but it is/was horrible storytelling.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2021 at 10:35 PM, SerMixalot said:

D&D are very, very poor story tellers.  They were given a once in a lifetime opportunity to work with a terrific group of actors, some of best tradespeople, artists and professionals in the industry, for a channel that knows how to produce quality and epic shows (Rome, Deadwood, The Wire) and an incredible story in ASOIAF.  However, ASOIAF would have challenged the most talented and imaginative of showrunners-given the complexity of the ASOAIF and, especially, since ASOIAF wasn't even finished.  

But D&D, along with all of their other atrocious personal traits, are horrible storytellers.  They simply did not understand the story that they were telling, did not understand that basic storytelling involves certain conventions, one of the most basic is to understand the world you are presenting and have things be consistent in it's expression. An example, both ASOIAF and GOT go to length to explain the Faith of the Seven.  They they present the High Sparrow character-the embodiment of the Faith (extremist one might say). So a viewer would expect that the High Sparrow would espouse the views of the Faith of the Seven to the extreme.  But, D&D have the High Sparrow give a long dissertation on the wastefulness of a shoemaker pursuing a life a study and work to make the best shoes because that led to a life of debauchery.  So he rejected shoemaking.  BUT the problem is that the Smith is one of the Seven-both in ASOIAF and GOT.  So, IN THE GOT WORLD, being a shoemaker and making the best shoes IS honoring the Seven.  NOT something to be rejected.  So D&D were completely inconsistent in their world building, ie how can a viewer understand the High Sparrow when his words and deeds contradict the rules of the world he lives in.

To expand on how D&D do not understand character motivation, see their Season 1 (or maybe 2) commentary on Jon Snow.  Their supplemental explanation of Jon Snow's character when he got to the Night's Watch was that he was seeking a father figure.  Huh?  That makes zero sense.  Jon was raised, nearly exclusively, around men with numerous father figures-Lord Eddard, Maester Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, even Benjen Stark.  Jon had father figures in abundance.  What is blatantly obvious in ASOIAF is Jon Snow is looking for an identity.  A blind man could see that.  To misunderstand something so basic, so obvious was very, very telling early on that the show would not be quality.  I have said numerous times, GOT is great spectacle, but it is/was horrible storytelling.

Just take a look at Stannis. D&D says he's ambitious but we don't really see that in the books; he wants the throne because by law he is the heir. Of course they don't like Stannis.

As for the High Sparrow, either Benioff or Weiss worked on Troy which was heavily demythologized. There's no Gods in Troy; for example Achilles' mother Thestis is an eccentric who really likes water.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 5/25/2021 at 12:25 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Oh your podcast already covered this chapter of the book - remember we were all shouting "WHY IS NO ONE REPORTING ON THIS?!" (well I was in chatroom shouting)

But it's nice to see it actually grabbing the public's attention.

I...suspect that the masses of the general audience....only really pay attention when it's a cast member saying something on video. They ignore text.  That Last Watch documentary had big impact, even if they weren't directly challenging D&D.

...dear god, if Emilia Clarke ever publicly turns against them, in a video interview, D&D would be over within a week.  And the entire legacy of GoT would collapse, we wouldn't have as many people defending the TV ending as now. If only Emilia came on camera and said "this wasn't the ending at the Season 8 table read, it was a last minute change, they're lying when they say they came up with it in Season 3"....they'd be over in a week. 

Even this, a third-tier character like Septa Unella...look at how much this is circulating, now that it's on video.

Imagine if Jessica Henwick actually said on video what filming the Season 7 naval battle was like. 

Then you have a lot of actors who speak against the fans' petition for a proper season and it's a noticeable divide; the younger, less established ones support D&D while the older, more established ones are a bit more critical of some of the choices, with Dinklage decrying the idiocy of putting civilians in a crypt and Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer expressing disappointment at the anticlimactic endings to their characters.

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FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 5

my comments are in square brackets.

missandei's death. ms. emmanuel thought it was cool. anderson thinks one or the other was going to go, either GW or missandei. "cruel inevitability." ms. emmanuel would have preferred a 1-on-1 scene w/ dany in season 8. mr. nutter (director) thinks b/c she's not royalty and is just a pawn, how it worked is good.

losing missandei infuriated dany, who readied her attack. she turned to jon for love. EC: "there was just this last thread shewas holding onto, this boy." she hoped she'd finally found someone who accepted her for who she was. "and he *f***ing doesn't*."

which led to the crud in "the bells". city bells rang surrender [davos from season 2: "i've never known the bells to mean surrender." preston pointed this out.] dany firebombs city punishing all for cersei's sins.

ms. emmanuel: "you kind of went over the top there. i meant cersei, not, like, *everyone*."

"committing mass murder to punish a defiant enemy has a history in the targaryen family." [no, it doesn't. not on this scale.] aegon the conqueror burnt down harrenhall and roasted everyone inside. [burning a castle is hardly comparable to burning a city!!]

weiss: dany gave up so much "and she's looking at the red keep w/ the lannister logo [logo????] on it where her family's star of the seven [waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait ... i know you're maybe on the spot; but this is basic lore you're getting wrong], her family's birthright was taken from her by the people who have done this to her." [NOT by the ppl of KL]

david benioff [God help us]: "and in spite of all these injustices, she tried her best to make peace w/ cersei -- and got betrayed for it." [this is just another argument *against* evil dany]

weiss: dany sacrificed her ppl and tried to be good and jaime defected.

benioff: ppl who would have tempered worst impulses like jorah [??; he wanted her to get a slave army] and missandei or tyrion either weren;t there or she doesn't trust them. [she was right not to trust tyrion. dany was doing good on her own initiative]

weiss: "dozens and dozens of factors going back to her birth to what she's seeing in her eyes right now a mile away and how that made her feel, all of them stepping on the scale tilting her into a terrible decision." [this makes no sense]

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 5

my comments are in square brackets.

missandei's death. ms. emmanuel thought it was cool. anderson thinks one or the other was going to go, either GW or missandei. "cruel inevitability." ms. emmanuel would have preferred a 1-on-1 scene w/ dany in season 8. mr. nutter (director) thinks b/c she's not royalty and is just a pawn, how it worked is good.

losing missandei infuriated dany, who readied her attack. she turned to jon for love. EC: "there was just this last thread shewas holding onto, this boy." she hoped she'd finally found someone who accepted her for who she was. "and he *f***ing doesn't*."

which led to the crud in "the bells". city bells rang surrender [davos from season 2: "i've never known the bells to mean surrender." preston pointed this out.] dany firebombs city punishing all for cersei's sins.

ms. emmanuel: "you kind of went over the top there. i meant cersei, not, like, *everyone*."

"committing mass murder to punish a defiant enemy has a history in the targaryen family." [no, it doesn't. not on this scale.] aegon the conqueror burnt down harrenhall and roasted everyone inside. [burning a castle is hardly comparable to burning a city!!]

weiss: dany gave up so much "and she's looking at the red keep w/ the lannister logo [logo????] on it where her family's star of the seven [waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait ... i know you're maybe on the spot; but this is basic lore you're getting wrong], her family's birthright was taken from her by the people who have done this to her." [NOT by the ppl of KL]

david benioff [God help us]: "and in spite of all these injustices, she tried her best to make peace w/ cersei -- and got betrayed for it." [this is just another argument *against* evil dany]

weiss: dany sacrificed her ppl and tried to be good and jaime defected.

benioff: ppl who would have tempered worst impulses like jorah [??; he wanted her to get a slave army] and missandei or tyrion either weren;t there or she doesn't trust them. [she was right not to trust tyrion. dany was doing good on her own initiative]

weiss: "dozens and dozens of factors going back to her birth to what she's seeing in her eyes right now a mile away and how that made her feel, all of them stepping on the scale tilting her into a terrible decision." [this makes no sense]

There are ways that it could have been explained, in narrative terms.  Perhaps Daenerys would just snap, after two seasons of being gaslit, undermined, and betrayed by her ostensible allies and supporters (in her position, I would have concluded that the Starks and Tyrion had set me up to be killed the moment I had won their war for them, and that Jon the spineless would do nothing to prevent them from doing so). Or one could argue that the city never in fact surrendered (ringing bells is a call to arms, not a call to surrender);  or that the sack of the city was simply done in accordance with the rules of war in this world (Cersei was offered quarter, and responded by beheading Missandei, the Northern and Vale soldiers went on the rampage and their actions were handwaved by Sansa, Tyrion, Bran etc).  

Even then, it's difficult to explain her swerving aside from the Red Keep, where her most hated enemy, that enemy's servants, and soldiers are located, to attack random civilians.  Like others, I think that was a very late addition to the episode.

But, in the next episode they went with the lamest, most ridiculous, and weakest explanation.  She was always Hitler/Satan from the outset, and you, the viewer, should have realised that was the case.  You were simply blinded by the brilliance of Benioff & Weiss' storytelling.  As every student of history knows, Hitler started off by freeing slaves, before he went to the bad.

As for Tyrion "tempering her worst impulses", he wanted to starve the inhabitants of the city to death.  I've just been reading about the Nazis' Hunger Plan for Soviet Russia, during Operation Barbarossa.  The German High Command weren't proposing mass starvation for humanitarian reasons.

Edited by SeanF

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

There are ways that it could have been explained, in narrative terms.  Perhaps Daenerys would just snap, after two seasons of being gaslit, undermined, and betrayed by her ostensible allies and supporters (in her position, I would have concluded that the Starks and Tyrion had set me up to be killed the moment I had won their war for them, and that Jon the spineless would do nothing to prevent them from doing so). Or one could argue that the city never in fact surrendered (ringing bells is a call to arms, not a call to surrender);  or that the sack of the city was simply done in accordance with the rules of war in this world (Cersei was offered quarter, and responded by beheading Missandei, the Northern and Vale soldiers went on the rampage and their actions were handwaved by Sansa, Tyrion, Bran etc).  

Even then, it's difficult to explain her swerving aside from the Red Keep, where her most hated enemy, that enemy's servants, and soldiers are located, to attack random civilians.  Like others, I think that was a very late addition to the episode.

But, in the next episode they went with the lamest, most ridiculous, and weakest explanation.  She was always Hitler/Satan from the outset, and you, the viewer, should have realised that was the case.  You were simply blinded by the brilliance of Benioff & Weiss' storytelling.  As every student of history knows, Hitler started off by freeing slaves, before he went to the bad.

As for Tyrion "tempering her worst impulses", he wanted to starve the inhabitants of the city to death.  I've just been reading about the Nazis' Hunger Plan for Soviet Russia, during Operation Barbarossa.  The German High Command weren't proposing mass starvation for humanitarian reasons.

Jon and the North absolutely used Dany to win the wars against the walkers and Tyrion did the same to get power for himself in Kings Landing like he had in s2. Dany should have stayed in Essos where over time she would have become the best ruler in Mereen's history.

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36 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Jon and the North absolutely used Dany to win the wars against the walkers and Tyrion did the same to get power for himself in Kings Landing like he had in s2. Dany should have stayed in Essos where over time she would have become the best ruler in Mereen's history.

If the books do conclude with Tyrion playing a role in compassing Daenerys' death, I don't doubt that his motives will be base, like those of Iago. The two D's wanted Tyrion to be their avatar and the hero of the tale, whereas in the books, he is written as a villain. 

Daenerys staying in Meereen would have been win/win.  The freedmen love her, and Westeros would get to be ruled, eventually, by the Night King.  He's male, a native, a warrior, and has never left the place, all that they could desire in a ruler.

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14 hours ago, SeanF said:

There are ways that it could have been explained, in narrative terms.  Perhaps Daenerys would just snap, after two seasons of being gaslit, undermined, and betrayed by her ostensible allies and supporters (in her position, I would have concluded that the Starks and Tyrion had set me up to be killed the moment I had won their war for them, and that Jon the spineless would do nothing to prevent them from doing so). Or one could argue that the city never in fact surrendered (ringing bells is a call to arms, not a call to surrender);  or that the sack of the city was simply done in accordance with the rules of war in this world (Cersei was offered quarter, and responded by beheading Missandei, the Northern and Vale soldiers went on the rampage and their actions were handwaved by Sansa, Tyrion, Bran etc).  

Even then, it's difficult to explain her swerving aside from the Red Keep, where her most hated enemy, that enemy's servants, and soldiers are located, to attack random civilians.  Like others, I think that was a very late addition to the episode.

But, in the next episode they went with the lamest, most ridiculous, and weakest explanation.  She was always Hitler/Satan from the outset, and you, the viewer, should have realised that was the case.  You were simply blinded by the brilliance of Benioff & Weiss' storytelling.  As every student of history knows, Hitler started off by freeing slaves, before he went to the bad.

As for Tyrion "tempering her worst impulses", he wanted to starve the inhabitants of the city to death.  I've just been reading about the Nazis' Hunger Plan for Soviet Russia, during Operation Barbarossa.  The German High Command weren't proposing mass starvation for humanitarian reasons.

It's one of the D's hallmarks that what they think they put on the screen is not what they put on the screen, so it isn't surprising they thought they were creating a house of cards where one by one the cards were being removed.  The viewer was always given the clues that they should support Jon and Tyrion, despite their obvious incredible stupidity and bad decisions.  

Even something as simple as Dany and Missy having a chat at some point before she is captured where Dany verbalizes some of her angst would have been helpful.  But they can't get around the fact that the truncated seasons destroyed any hope, distant and unlikely given the D's writing record, of creating a believable downfall that was of a piece with earlier seasons.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's one of the D's hallmarks that what they think they put on the screen is not what they put on the screen, so it isn't surprising they thought they were creating a house of cards where one by one the cards were being removed.  The viewer was always given the clues that they should support Jon and Tyrion, despite their obvious incredible stupidity and bad decisions.  

Even something as simple as Dany and Missy having a chat at some point before she is captured where Dany verbalizes some of her angst would have been helpful.  But they can't get around the fact that the truncated seasons destroyed any hope, distant and unlikely given the D's writing record, of creating a believable downfall that was of a piece with earlier seasons.

For sure.  Or  just have her increasingly hardened and corrupted by war, as so many commanders have been.  It would not be hard to have a short scene at the end of Season 6, where she makes good her threat to Yunkai, and is shown riding away from a blazing city, past a row of screaming Wise Masters impaled on poles, and a pyramid of heads, like Timur. Then in Season 7, we could have had a couple of scenes of Dothraki bringing fire and sword to civilians in areas that supported Cersei.  None of that would be untypical for medieval warfare, but would give the Northmen and others every reason to be frightened of her, even as they sought alliance against the Dead, and it would make the final destruction of Kings Landing so much more plausible.

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SeanF said:

For sure.  Or  just have her increasingly hardened and corrupted by war, as so many commanders have been.  It would not be hard to have a short scene at the end of Season 6, where she makes good her threat to Yunkai, and is shown riding away from a blazing city, past a row of screaming Wise Masters impaled on poles, and a pyramid of heads, like Timur. 

Are you GRRM? That sounds exactly like what Dany, after embracing her inner dragon, is going to do in Essos during Winds of Winter.

Edited by Ghostlydragon

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58 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Are you GRRM? That sounds exactly like what Dany, after embracing her inner dragon, is going to do in Essos during Winds of Winter.

I'm afraid that the slave masters require a bit of tough love.:D

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