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The Fattest Leech

Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

On Varys: he’s very inconsistent when it comes to what he values in a ruler. He’s blunt to Ned that Robert is a fool because he makes no effort as King and didn’t want the crown, yet he says to Jon he’d be a great ruler because he doesn’t want to rule. The worst part is that Varys, who was trying to poison Daenerys at the time, somehow forgot that Robert was so apathetic because the woman he cared for died. How did he expect Jon was going to be if the woman he loved died?

 One could try to rationalise it by saying that Varys wanted a weak ruler who would do whatever Varys said, but it's probably impossible to rationalise what was going on.

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46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 One could try to rationalise it by saying that Varys wanted a weak ruler who would do whatever Varys said, but it's probably impossible to rationalise what was going on.

Yeah, show Varys just did what the writers wanted him to, presumably, hopefully, if we ever get any more story, original Varys will have more of a through line in terms of what his goals are what the internal calculations are in terms of when he does or doesn't make a move.

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4 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Agreed 100%. For all their many faults, D&D never pandered to the sjw crowd that so many other people have. Like you said, it would never stand now.

Full frontal naked women and excessive sex scenes focusing mostly on the women, rape being used to make women stronger, that crowd surfing bit, getting rid of the older characters like Barristan, Stannis and Roose to focus on the younger ones like Tyrion, Jon and Ramsay. And of course deciding Danaerys being a woman is a reason she's unfit to rule Westeros.

There's so much that would never stand and it's a miracle they could get away with it back then.

There are two major complaints that I foresee for HOTD: Laenor's death, which will be characterized as "burying your gays," and Mysaria. Because Mysaria is an Asian sex worker, people online will say that this is exoticization and racism, and rage that she lives to please Daemon--ignoring the fact that Daemon's Flea Bottom revels aren't supposed to be seen as something heroic (I mean, how gross is the line about him "delighting in deflowering maidens"?) Then again, even if it is clear that Daemon/Mysaria are intentionally problematic, there will still be people who say that instances like this should not be featured on a TV show. The problem is, it's not just people on Twitter who make these arguments anymore, but columnists for major magazines :dunce:

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, show Varys just did what the writers wanted him to, presumably, hopefully, if we ever get any more story, original Varys will have more of a through line in terms of what his goals are what the internal calculations are in terms of when he does or doesn't make a move.

After Season 4 the show runners had no idea what to do with Varys. His dialogue with Illyrio at the start of Season 1, and his decision to free Tyrion and egg him on to kill Tywin, become pointless, in the absence of any plan to put his own pretender on the Iron Throne.  And, one can deduce from the books that he wanted the assassination of Daenerys to be botched, or even if successful, traced back to Kings Landing, because he and Illyrio want the Dothraki to invade. Here, he goes from being entirely on board with the assassination, to deciding to serve her, without any explanation as to why. 

It would have made more sense to kill him off, rather than have him decide to serve her, travel to Meereen, witness Dany killing slavers, promise "fire and blood" to Olenna and the Sands, before deciding in Season 7 that, actually, violence against Cersei and her followers is just not on. 

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The Ds true achievement with the last two seasons is that they fail on every level, for every story and for every character.  The further and deeper you look, the worse it becomes.  Story, plot, themes, realism, character, consistency, artistry, writing, they even destroyed the direction due to the obsession with candle light.  

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Randall Tarly was not a good guy. Tyrion has been very grey and may go different ways. Varys was very iffy. Still Daenerys wasn’t gloating or slavering over executions and battle destruction, so suddenly going mad queen did not make sense. In a way these books could be the anatomy of villainy or heroism in war time. It’s grey!

There are examples in history of there not being a lot of joy in having an excessively brutal king or heir. Fear, yes, but that could lead to friendly fire. IDK if Daenerys is going to be that kind by the end. It would need a much better build up than what was shown in the abomination. Whatever happens, we will not feel tidy!

Ramsay, Cersei, and Arya (!) were the three principal characters who actually enjoyed inflicting cruelty, even to the point of being aroused by it. In the case of Arya, the show runners thought this was positive.

Edited by SeanF

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ramsay, Cersei, and Arya (!) were the three principal characters who actually enjoyed inflicting cruelty, even to the point of being aroused by it. In the case of Arya, the show runners thought this was positive.

Don’t forget Sansa at the end of Battle of the Bastards.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/2/2021 at 5:39 AM, SeanF said:

What one needs to avoid is (a) anachronisms, such as someone suggesting that women should get the vote; or (b) endorsing the most bigoted of in-universe prejudices.

One also needs to avoid just putting a bunch of nasty stuff on the screen without a point. All they did was play dolls with the actors (and for all their contempt of girls, girls playing dolls tell better stories).

Themes: Not Just for Eighth Graders.

Basically they were George Costanza and the show was the Pensky file. Only worse, like if George had tossed the contents of the Pensky file out the window. All that was left after they got through with it was the folder.

Edited by Le Cygne

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Don’t forget Sansa at the end of Battle of the Bastards.

TBF to Sansa, there's no reason to think she actually got off on cruelty.  Her sins were more being sly, faithless, and corruptible.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

TBF to Sansa, there's no reason to think she actually got off on cruelty.  Her sins were more being sly, faithless, and corruptible.

I was thinking more of the smirk she gave while walking away from the hounds. As far as being faithless and corruptible, that's going back a lot further than the show. It's one of the complaints about Sansa in the books, being sly is something she grew into.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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there was plenty of fantasy on the telly in the '70s and '80s. granted it was often sort of marketed to kids.

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 7

my comments are in square brackets.

"tyrion was often an ineffective advisor, and he'd made a slew of strategic errors over the years." [you don't say.] but in scene w/ tyrion he acted as informal hand to "the true king of westeros, and for once his advice was effective, correct, and devastating." "duty is the death of love". [dany is so cartoonishly evil at this point that why is it even an issue] [also the "evil men" speech is Worst. Retcon. Ever.]

jon didn't plan on killing dany. but when he asks about all the other ppl and she says "they don't get to choose", he realises he has to off her.

KH: dany's the second woman he waas in love w/ who died in his arms. "this destroys him."

in books but not show, old bear says "the things we love destroy us." this means it's deep.

EC: "he just doesn't like women, does he? he keeps f***ing killing them." could he have had a converssation w/ me or asked my opinion? "it's like being in the middle of a phone call w/ your boyfriend and they just hang up and never call you again."

KH: "we spent a week shooting it."
EC: "we reshot it more than any other scene, trying to get it perfect." [DD penchant for micromanaging, which is weirdly combined w/ sloppiness]

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

there was plenty of fantasy on the telly in the '70s and '80s. granted it was often sort of marketed to kids.

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 7

my comments are in square brackets.

"tyrion was often an ineffective advisor, and he'd made a slew of strategic errors over the years." [you don't say.] but in scene w/ tyrion he acted as informal hand to "the true king of westeros, and for once his advice was effective, correct, and devastating." "duty is the death of love". [dany is so cartoonishly evil at this point that why is it even an issue] [also the "evil men" speech is Worst. Retcon. Ever.]

jon didn't plan on killing dany. but when he asks about all the other ppl and she says "they don't get to choose", he realises he has to off her.

KH: dany's the second woman he waas in love w/ who died in his arms. "this destroys him."

in books but not show, old bear says "the things we love destroy us." this means it's deep.

EC: "he just doesn't like women, does he? he keeps f***ing killing them." could he have had a converssation w/ me or asked my opinion? "it's like being in the middle of a phone call w/ your boyfriend and they just hang up and never call you again."

KH: "we spent a week shooting it."
EC: "we reshot it more than any other scene, trying to get it perfect." [DD penchant for micromanaging, which is weirdly combined w/ sloppiness]

Much to unpack there.

1. Tyrion has been (at best) grossly incompetent as Hand (at worst) actively trying to undermine Daenerys, in order to protect his siblings.

2. Tyrion's advice to Jon is excellent - for Tyrion.  If Jon kills Daenerys, Tyrion gets to save his own hide, avenge his siblings, and has a chance to worm his way back into power.  Jon, in the time-honoured manner of assassins who have outlived their usefulness, is chucked into the wilderness. He was probably fortunate not to be quietly disposed of.  No one cared about Jon's status as "the true king" for Jon.  It was always used to undermine Daenerys.

I don't want to revisit "First they came for the slave traders and I did nothing, for I was not a slave trader."

The more I think about it, the more disgusting the whole thing is.  An evil man, who has waded through innocent blood, persuades a decent man to do his dirty work for him, prior to discarding him.  And, the two D's attempt to sell this as good.  

3. Kit Harrington's comment destroys the notion that this was somehow a happy ending for Jon.  It's a wretched, shitty ending.  Admittedly, he showed very little evidence that he loved Daenerys during Season 8, but that's down to shitty writing.  Jon's character was completely trashed by Ding & Dong.

4. No one objected when sixteen oligarchs agreed "they don't get to choose, " when it came to choosing the next king.

5. Emilia Clarke, once again, refuses to toe the party line.

Edited by SeanF

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i love emilia clarke.

i guess the Ds intend tyrion to be "good" and the fact that it makes more sense if he's bad (or grey at least) doesn't occur to them.

jon gets to be true king for one paragraph. yay?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

i love emilia clarke.

i guess the Ds intend tyrion to be "good" and the fact that it makes more sense if he's bad (or grey at least) doesn't occur to them.

jon gets to be true king for one paragraph. yay?

The author has stated more than once, that Tyrion is "the villain".  Granted, he loves the character, but he is Martin's version of Richard III.

So, the story simply cannot sustain Tyrion being a hero.  Unless you really love show Tyrion, and/or hate Daenerys, his conduct cannot be seen as anything other than villainous, however much the two D's try to spin it as heroic. His entire arc is about proving his father right about him.

And, this is one of the reasons why the series fell apart, trying to hammer the square peg of a villainous character, into the round hole of heroism. Everything else has to alter. 

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

EC: "he just doesn't like women, does he? he keeps f***ing killing them." could he have had a converssation w/ me or asked my opinion? "it's like being in the middle of a phone call w/ your boyfriend and they just hang up and never call you again."

KH: "we spent a week shooting it."
EC: "we reshot it more than any other scene, trying to get it perfect." [DD penchant for micromanaging, which is weirdly combined w/ sloppiness]

Jon only kills one woman, that's Daenerys. Olly (one of those characters nobody likes to talk about) kills Ygritte.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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58 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The author has stated more than once, that Tyrion is "the villain".  Granted, he loves the character, but he is Martin's version of Richard III.

So, the story simply cannot sustain Tyrion being a hero.  Unless you really love show Tyrion, and/or hate Daenerys, his conduct cannot be seen as anything other than villainous, however much the two D's try to spin it as heroic. His entire arc is about proving his father right about him.

And, this is one of the reasons why the series fell apart, trying to hammer the square peg of a villainous character, into the round hole of heroism. Everything else has to alter. 

Well, GRRM said Tyrion's his favorite character, why not pander him to what we think our favorite character should act, you know?

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In retrospect, I’m surprised that Jon murdering his girlfriend didn’t get more backlash on its own. I guess everyone was so distracted by the King’s Landing barbecue that they didn’t really focus on it, but it certainly seems like the sort of thing that would piss a lot of people off. 

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Posted (edited)

I went on a really long rant yesterday that was extremely off-topic and since removed by the moderators; they were right to do so. It was ridiculously long and basically me ranting about parallels to Elizabeth Holmes over and over again. REALLY tangential and not even landing on a point. Sorry about that I was thinking out loud. I was out at a relative's house all of today and in the back of my mind I kept thinking "I should really remove that long rant I posted when I was half-awake last night" but by the time I got back to my computer at home the moderators already deleted it. 

I feel bad about this, I don't want to give the moderators more grief. It was a pretty sloppy and cringe-worthy rant, my offline life has been pretty frustrating this week and I was venting in a rant post, I shouldn't have.

Please ignore that and carry on.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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I don't look forward to House of the Dragon cast and writers being barraged with questions about the Game of Thrones ending....I really feel bad about this in the back of my mind. How the heck could they respond to that in any way?

I'm still baffled why audiences complained about Season 8 when it did the exact same things they did in Seasons 5 through 7. Objectively...yeah, Season 8 it was dialed up worse than ever. But I thought they were number to it by then. Some still insist on "both sides-ism" and that it was "good" or the fans are wrong to be so shocked.

It's weird trying to go through a list of why the casuals hated it; dropping the White Walker storyline line a stone? (Abandoning Jon Snow's storyline to have Arya kill the Night King)...that was quite a shock. Turning Daenerys evil was also a huge one.

But what's fascinating are all the sloppy little points that infuriate one person or another, i.e. Rhaegal's death.

But thinking of House of the Dragon, that's the question I get barraged with over and over again in comments sections; "Why should we care about a Targaryen prequel when we know that they end with Daenerys going insane and evil?"

What if someone actually asks the cast & crew that during a live Q&A? Yikes.

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