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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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Posted (edited)

This article deeply upset me: not only does it try to rationalize Arya's "storyarc" as being good through the finale...it actually concludes by saying "hey, if the ending was 'divisive'....just focus on the Arya storyline, which is better than some of the other ones:

https://collider.com/game-of-thrones-best-character-arya/

Quote

With a bit of distance from the series finale, I’m sure some folks out there have begun to consider revisiting the series as a whole but remain concerned about sitting through some of the show’s more unfortunate missteps. My advice? Watch for Arya. Devote your attention to the one character who made it through from start to finish unscathed and travels a hero’s journey that is both unconventional and completely satisfying. Beyond that, anything else that happens to still hold up is gravy.

This is what passes for journalism these days?

We responded to the finale by trying to research behind the scenes statements.

TWO YEARS ON, none of these shallow media reactions changed. Not time for "new evidence" to turn up. No coherent research. Dear god, are they still just stumbling around blind not even trying to search for answers? I Mean, specifically compared to how LC Dunn and Count Balerion's team actually sat down to systematically read through Hibberd's behind the scenes book.

It's just...people trying to rationalize why Season 8 was really good...instead of researching "what the heck writing decisions went into this?"

EDIT: It's really just this one person's op-ed though, even Collider as a whole...turns out LAST WEEK their combined staff put out an article mocking storylines the show "kinda forgot". This restores my faith in humanity.

https://collider.com/game-of-thrones-biggest-plot-holes-kind-of-forgot/

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

This article deeply upset me: not only does it try to rationalize Arya's "storyarc" as being good through the finale...it actually concludes by saying "hey, if the ending was 'divisive'....just focus on the Arya storyline, which is better than some of the other ones:

https://collider.com/game-of-thrones-best-character-arya/

This is what passes for journalism these days?

We responded to the finale by trying to research behind the scenes statements.

TWO YEARS ON, none of these shallow media reactions changed. Not time for "new evidence" to turn up. No coherent research. Dear god, are they still just stumbling around blind not even trying to search for answers? I Mean, specifically compared to how LC Dunn and Count Balerion's team actually sat down to systematically read through Hibberd's behind the scenes book.

It's just...people trying to rationalize why Season 8 was really good...instead of researching "what the heck writing decisions went into this?"

EDIT: It's really just this one person's op-ed though, even Collider as a whole...turns out LAST WEEK their combined staff put out an article mocking storylines the show "kinda forgot". This restores my faith in humanity.

https://collider.com/game-of-thrones-biggest-plot-holes-kind-of-forgot/

In the case of Arya, would her arc have been satisfied with her death via two ways:

Dying while killing the Night King. She had no impact for the rest of the season (note that everyone who died that episode didn’t have an arc or fulfilled it in that episode) and it would have underscored the cost of beating back the Army of the Dead: your favorite characters may and will die, one of the various messages of the series: anyone can die.

Alternatively, if she had died in various ways during The Bells, ie being flattened by the fleeing people or burned to a crisp, which would play up the message the showrunners were pushing that revenge is futile?

Seriously, what was the point of keeping her alive if she had no purpose to fill in the plot?

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Posted (edited)

One could just watch a good show to see a good character.

Media is a business, and show business has always been about throwing money around to sway people. They aren't going to pay money for people to write about things that won't make them money.

When they finally got a chance to tell the truth, since by then the whole world knew, the vast majority said the show was terrible. No one wants to rewatch this. And especially not for one character.

They screwed over Arya, too. Let's look at her arc:

Season 1 - scrappy!

Season 2 - scrappy!

Season 3 - scrappy!

Season 4 - scrappy psycho!

Season 5 - psycho!

Season 6 - psycho!

Season 7 - psycho!

Season 8 - Ninja Turtle then Dora the Explorer

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

One could just watch a good show to see a good character.

Media is a business, and show business has always been about throwing money around to sway people. They aren't going to pay money for people to write about things that won't make them money.

When they finally got a chance to tell the truth, since by then the whole world knew, the vast majority said the show was terrible. No one wants to rewatch this. And especially not for one character.

They screwed over Arya, too. Let's look at her arc:

Season 1 - scrappy!

Season 2 - scrappy!

Season 3 - scrappy!

Season 4 - scrappy psycho!

Season 5 - psycho!

Season 6 - psycho!

Season 7 - psycho!

Season 8 - Ninja Turtle then Dora the Explorer

What type of scrappy? Like the determined, dedicated scrappy or the TV tropes scrappy (a character who’s widely disliked by the fandom; read: Jar-Jar)?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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14 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

GRRM was definitely influenced by IVANHOE, or i'll eat my hat.

if you're in the mood for another GOT hate-video: WightCast#6 Covering Another Game Of Thrones Video - What Game Of Thrones Kinda Forgot - YouTube

If anyone wants to form an opinion on the video they talk over beforehand, here it is:

 

 

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Jar Jar Binks was bizarre in an unpleasant way. People liked Yoda, 3 CPO, R2D2  and Chewbacca, and then they tried something too far even for that. Less is more. You can say this about art...it didn’t work.

People often like Shrek, Princess Fiona, talking Donky, Klingons, Vulcans, Wall-e, K-9.

They had a great character in Arya and went too far, too fast. I don’t mind that she stabbed the NK, on its own. At least they made the case that she was training. But Jon needed a lot more story too. It’s bad writing and editing.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

An article I hadn't seen before, mocking the empty words "the pack survives" spoken by the two sisters who almost killed each other. That's this show in a nutshell, even when they bother to say something, it doesn't mean anything.

Then one sister betrayed her brother, breaking a weirwood tree promise like breaking a nail, and the other sister blew off the same brother, as he was sobbing and asking her to please come visit him. They abandoned the other brother, too.

GO PACK!

I'd say poor Jon, to have such faithless sisters, except he just murdered his aunt, so the pack didn't survive in that case, either.

(Also, pack is not about physical proximity, but spiritual closeness. The show could have given meaning to the line even if they ended up scattered across the globe, but they did not. The show repeatedly mocked Ned, and everything he stood for.)

Revisiting the “happy ending” for the Starks: Sansa and Arya stood atop a castle wall in Winterfell this season as Sansa echoed the words of their father: “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” Apparently, the pack was only needed to survive until the finale, where Arya decided she was better off playing the lead in a Pirates of the Caribbean remake. Thumbs up for female empowerment, but could we stick to a family ethos for… a month? That doesn’t seem like a huge request.

Bran Stark, the true-born male heir of Winterfell, became the king of Westeros after being selected by a panel that included Sansa Stark. For some reason, the people of the North, who have followed the Stark family through thick and thin for hundreds of years through triumph and tragedy alike, decided they would follow another Stark who seceded from the kingdom instead. They’re an independent group of people, but really?...

Without going too far down this wormhole, I’ll say this: "Thrones" spent much of the last two seasons invalidating the core of what got them here. A few carefully-collected quotes and callbacks do not change this.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/game-thrones-finale-sucked-and-heres-why-hbo-got-finale/

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

An article I hadn't seen before, mocking the empty words "the pack survives" spoken by the two sisters who almost killed each other. That's this show in a nutshell, even when they bother to say something, it doesn't mean anything.

Then one sister betrayed her brother, breaking a weirwood tree promise like breaking a nail, and the other sister blew off the same brother, as he was sobbing and asking her to please come visit him. They abandoned the other brother, too.

GO PACK!

I'd say poor Jon, to have such faithless sisters, except he just murdered his aunt, so the pack didn't survive in that case, either.

Revisiting the “happy ending” for the Starks: Sansa and Arya stood atop a castle wall in Winterfell this season as Sansa echoed the words of their father: “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” Apparently, the pack was only needed to survive until the finale, where Arya decided she was better off playing the lead in a Pirates of the Caribbean remake. Thumbs up for female empowerment, but could we stick to a family ethos for… a month? That doesn’t seem like a huge request.

Bran Stark, the true-born male heir of Winterfell, became the king of Westeros after being selected by a panel that included Sansa Stark. For some reason, the people of the North, who have followed the Stark family through thick and thin for hundreds of years through triumph and tragedy alike, decided they would follow another Stark who seceded from the kingdom instead. They’re an independent group of people, but really?...

Without going too far down this wormhole, I’ll say this: "Thrones" spent much of the last two seasons invalidating the core of what got them here. A few carefully-collected quotes and callbacks do not change this.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/game-thrones-finale-sucked-and-heres-why-hbo-got-finale/

I remember I did a thread on this concept awhile back that the phrase rings hollow.

 

Edit: It's right here.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

This is IMO one of the important things GRRM is telling:

Quote

The frailty of putting your faith into the hands of one person (or even a small group of people) should have been brought into focus by Daenerys’ sudden descent into madness. Dozens of the most important people in the world took up arms for a person they believed to be better than the rest, who had proven she would look out for the downtrodden, only for her to turn King’s Landing into ash. All it took to look past this and continue down a similar path was a decent speech from Tyrion and a bit of banter about brothel building. Now everybody is just singing Kumbaya and believing it’ll all work out?

At some point, power always ends up in the wrong hands.

Except maybe the Manderlies, no house of the North has armies enough to engage in significant warfare. Not the Starks. Ned had no more than 50 men to bring to KL.This is mostly because the North has no food (except the Manderlies) to sustain idle armies. Minor powers mean minor unrests. The Starks can keep the peace so long as a few houses respond to calls and provide a bit of assistance. In fine, the peace is guaranteed by Winter. Anyone unprepared will die when it comes.

In another story GRRM said:

Quote

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

 

Related to this question of power is Varys riddle. People have power mostly by the support given to them. Aerys endured because too many people were giving him their swords. The rebellion is the result of those like Rossart who supported him for personal reasons, not for the greater good.

ETA: personal reasons, including an inflated sense of honor.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 8

my comments are in square brackets.

EC: "i very much wanted her final moment to be childlike in her innocence ... in the penultimate episode, i felt like i slammed into the wall of how manic or crazy she could be. where else is there for you to go other than right back to the beginning?" [reminder: when she came up w/ that interpretation, she didn't know dany had fire-bombed the civilians -- b/c she *hadn't*. she's thinking of the *original script* version here.]

EC: having dany die was like mourning her father AND her brain haemorrhages all over again, as well as "grieving what danerys could have been, and grieving the love that i had for the show".

drogon' burning the IT "was not explained". but given dany's connexion to drogon, "it's fair to assume the creature understood ... that it had somehow led to her doom" through her obsession. [according to script the IT was an accidental victim]

EC thinks he carries around until she decomposes.

jason mamoa thinks she's had a rubbish life and "goes off on everyone. it's just sad."

EC asks where the blazes else she can go? "it's not like she's suddenly going to go, 'OK, i'm gonna put a kettle on and put some cookies in the oven and we'll just sit down and have a lovely time and pop a few kids out.'" she's a targ "and your childhood and upbringing affects your choices in life so greatly." [there are no choices made heretofore that suggest she'll do genocide.] she did it all for her family. "she was *that* close to fulfilling that seal of approval, that thing we all secretly want." [surely she DID fulfil it?] but having said all the things i've just said ... i stand by daenerys. i stand by her! i can't not."

and thankfully i finished this God-help-us chapter. a couple more to go.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2021 at 2:43 PM, Count Balerion said:

FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, CHAPTER 30. A LOT OF SOPHISTRY TRYING TO "DEFEND" EVIL DANY AND JUST SHUT THE BLAZES UP ALREADY, PART 8

my comments are in square brackets.

EC: "i very much wanted her final moment to be childlike in her innocence ... in the penultimate episode, i felt like i slammed into the wall of how manic or crazy she could be. where else is there for you to go other than right back to the beginning?" [reminder: when she came up w/ that interpretation, she didn't know dany had fire-bombed the civilians -- b/c she *hadn't*. she's thinking of the *original script* version here.]

EC: having dany die was like mourning her father AND her brain haemorrhages all over again, as well as "grieving what danerys could have been, and grieving the love that i had for the show".

drogon' burning the IT "was not explained". but given dany's connexion to drogon, "it's fair to assume the creature understood ... that it had somehow led to her doom" through her obsession. [according to script the IT was an accidental victim]

EC thinks he carries around until she decomposes.

jason mamoa thinks she's had a rubbish life and "goes off on everyone. it's just sad."

EC asks where the blazes else she can go? "it's not like she's suddenly going to go, 'OK, i'm gonna put a kettle on and put some cookies in the oven and we'll just sit down and have a lovely time and pop a few kids out.'" she's a targ "and your childhood and upbringing affects your choices in life so greatly." [there are no choices made heretofore that suggest she'll do genocide.] she did it all for her family. "she was *that* close to fulfilling that seal of approval, that thing we all secretly want." [surely she DID fulfil it?] but having said all the things i've just said ... i stand by daenerys. i stand by her! i can't not."

and thankfully i finished this God-help-us chapter. a couple more to go.

If the Iron Throne was an accidental victim, how did Drogon miss? In theory, wouldn't he just start blasting wherever until he burned whatever he was trying to hit?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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1 hour ago, Count Balerion said:

it's D&D. don't expect it to make sense! sense and D&D don't mix.

I guess I expect things to work from a reasoning/psychological standpoint, physics not-so-much (this is fantasy we're talking about), though if things are shown working one way, the rules should remain consistent (ie Daenerys should have been flying around naked at some point during The Bells since her clothes always burn off).

"Smokey, this isn't 'Nam; this is bowling, there are rules."

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20 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

it's D&D. don't expect it to make sense! sense and D&D don't mix.

Funny thing, there was a part about one of D&D's additions that did make sense. In the books, Tywin has Sansa marry Tyrion and Roose Bolton would be named Warden of the North, right? The problem is that Tywin seems to have given those titles to Roose Bolton for life... which is a problem because the North doesn't like it if there isn't a Stark on top, that's why we have schemes like Wyman sending Davos to Skagos, the Jeyne!Arya smuggling plan, and Robb legitimizing Jon, sending Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont and two of Maege's daughters to The Neck with Robb's will. The show explains that Roose is to be regent until Tyrion and Sansa's son (if there is one) comes of age, so the Northern Lords will only have to grouse about it for a relatively short time.

Of course (and this is common to both versions), Tywin doesn't seem to consider that Tyrion and Sansa would not be accepted in the North as:

  1. A Lannister (Tyrion)
  2. Sansa has been associated with the Lannisters for too long to not believed tainted thought process-wise (show)
  3. Tyrion is a cripple, as the North doesn't like cripples with Torrhen and Eddard Karstark saying that Bran should commit suicide
  4. Robb disinherited Sansa so the Lannisters wouldn't get Winterfell

True to form, Sansa is rebuffed in Season 6 by the Starks' traditional supporters (like the Glovers) because she's a woman.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Funny thing, there was a part about one of D&D's additions that did make sense. In the books, Tywin has Sansa marry Tyrion and Roose Bolton would be named Warden of the North, right? The problem is that Tywin seems to have given those titles to Roose Bolton for life... which is a problem because the North doesn't like it if there isn't a Stark on top, that's why we have schemes like Wyman sending Davos to Skagos, the Jeyne!Arya smuggling plan, and Robb legitimizing Jon, sending Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont and two of Maege's daughters to The Neck with Robb's will. The show explains that Roose is to be regent until Tyrion and Sansa's son (if there is one) comes of age, so the Northern Lords will only have to grouse about it for a relatively short time.

Of course (and this is common to both versions), Tywin doesn't seem to consider that Tyrion and Sansa would not be accepted in the North as:

  1. A Lannister (Tyrion)
  2. Sansa has been associated with the Lannisters for too long to not believed tainted thought process-wise (show)
  3. Tyrion is a cripple, as the North doesn't like cripples with Torrhen and Eddard Karstark saying that Bran should commit suicide
  4. Robb disinherited Sansa so the Lannisters wouldn't get Winterfell

True to form, Sansa is rebuffed in Season 6 by the Starks' traditional supporters (like the Glovers) because she's a woman.

I don't think Tywin even thinks about the end result. If Tyrion went to the North to rule in his son's name, then the Northerners would cut his throat in his sleep.  For all of Tywin's schemes, he doesn't seem to understand that a piece of paper won't mean a thing to the lords and commoners.

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tywin isn't as smart as he thinks. the red wedding was a really bad idea. the north will never submit to the lannisters, freys, or boltons willingly now, and it's too large to be held by fear and force. sure, they're going along for now; but for how long.

that's by the way. D&D gave up logic long ago, i fear.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2021 at 2:43 PM, Count Balerion said:

EC thinks he carries around until she decomposes.

Might as well go with something good, while she's at it. No, Dany wasn't really dead, Drogon flew her to Daario in Essos, where the best maesters nursed her back to health in the house with the red door.

That's where all the real characters went to live, after the pod people took over their bodies on the show. The show was just a really bad movie and will be laughed at on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Might as well go with something good, while she's at it. No, Dany wasn't really dead, Drogon flew her to Daario in Essos, where the best maesters nursed her back to health in the house with the red door.

That's where all the real characters went to live, after the pod people took over their bodies on the show. The show was just a really bad movie and will be laughed at on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Or she goes to Volantis and she’s resurrected. If the show follows its own rules from Season 6 onward she’ll be back on her feet in no time, still with most of a brain.
 

As for Mystery Science Theater, I’ve been waiting for TV Sins (the spin-off of Cinema Sins) to cover it for two years now.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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