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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2021 at 4:04 PM, Maia said:

 

I want to thank you for your perseverance and for all the interesting tidbits that you researched and shared in this thread! Good work. I was going through it these last couple of weeks, since I pretty much dropped out of all things GoT and ASoIaF related for the last 2 years. 

As to HoTD, frankly, I can't fathom what GRRM was thinking when he was writing the material for it. I felt that his depiction of women in it and and in FaB was quite problematic and disappointing back when I believed that a great queen was the endgame. Who, by all means could have been Sansa marrying Aegon and doing Catherine the Great, as long as it was well done. But with Bran as endgame, wow! It seems like Martin was going to prove all the naysayers of female succession right?! I honestly don't see how this can be salvaged. I expect it to crash and burn - deservedly so. They should have done the pre-Fall Valyria as Rome with dragons, founding of Braavos and the Faceless Men, Aenar, Daenys the Dreamer - that could have worked. YMMV.

 

I like the Stark siblings - and IMHO a happy ending would have been for at least some of them to come and stay together helping and supporting each other, not to separate forever after a brief and fraught interaction. I hated where the show had left them.

I am also a fan of Tyrion, but of the book version, and I am in no way inclined to white-wash him. His character was destroyed in the show. 

 

I disagree with the notion that the North is this super-special country where nobody looks to their own self-interest and everybody is suicidally loyal to their dead overlords. In books it is fairly clear that Bolton _could_ have been successful if he had a reasonable heir instead of Ramsey. Even Jon thought so.  Tywin's idea was to wait out  what looked to become a very fierce and long winter, have Sansa produce a healthy Lannister-Stark heir and then maybe try to claim the North in his name, buying off the starving opposition. It wasn't a bad plan, if several things fell out his way, but it wasn't the only one. He could also have lived with Bolton in charge.  And IMHO it was mostly intended to fend off Tyrion's ambitions for Casterly Rock.   

Oh, and I wanted to thank you too for all the fascinating excerpts from Hibberd's book and the analysis thereof. You have suffered so that we won't have to!

 

Well, thanks to this thread we know that GRRM is on-record with Sansa's plot-line being very different in the books, so there is that. I think that both @The Dragon Demands and @Count Balerion posted the relevant quote some pages back.

 

I think that Bran as some kind of benevolent god-king would be a disappointing and very lame outcome to the tale, it that is indeed the outcome.  In my view, it would be a real cop-out to have some kind of ominiscient being putting everything right, in a tale that's meant to feature political realism.  Bran as a malevolent god-king would be better in a narrative sense, and would surely fit with the author's remark that his warging into Hodor is "an obscenity".  It would however, be a very bleak end to the story, and would hardly be bittersweet, unless other sympathetic characters were able to escape from him.

It makes perfect sense that there should be an in-universe prejudice against women in power.  It would hardly be subversive of tropes if the author ends up presenting this prejudice to us as an ethical truth. Or only subversive in the sense that it's now pretty much a dead horse trope.

I like Sansa well enough in the books and Arya a lot (Bran doesn't interest me much).  By the end of the show I pretty much loathed them all. They had become Lannisters with different hair colour.  Again, perhaps this is how Martin intends them to finish up. But if so, I think that would be a sad outcome, not a good one.  The problem is that the show runners thought that Tywin, Cersei, LF are all people to be emulated, not people whose example is to be avoided.  They even had Arya express the same philosophy as Cersei to Joffrey, towards the end "she's not one of us."

I agree Tyrion was destroyed by the show.  I hated that someone so useless should be allowed constantly to fail upwards. Actions ought to have consequences.

Edited by SeanF

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On 7/20/2021 at 3:55 AM, SeanF said:

I think that Bran as some kind of benevolent god-king would be a disappointing and very lame outcome to the tale, it that is indeed the outcome.  In my view, it would be a real cop-out to have some kind of ominiscient being putting everything right, in a tale that's meant to feature political realism.  Bran as a malevolent god-king would be better in a narrative sense, and would surely fit with the author's remark that his warging into Hodor is "an obscenity".  It would however, be a very bleak end to the story, and would hardly be bittersweet, unless other sympathetic characters were able to escape from him.

A benevolent god-king is disappointing how? Isn't the king supposed to be the most powerful person in the land?

ASOIAF is panning out to be this fairytale epic -- that is a blend between epic poetry, political drama, horror and fantasy -- of biblical length and complexity. Think of a fusion between the Matter of Britain, All the President's Men, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, The Witches and Raya and the Last Dragon.

Fairy tales, epics and coming-of-age stories most often end with the protagonist saving the day (or just surviving the day) and then becoming either royalty or retiring from public spotlight for a private life.

It makes sense for Bran to be king.

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

A benevolent god-king is disappointing how? Isn't the king supposed to be the most powerful person in the land?

ASOIAF is panning out to be this fairytale epic -- that is a blend between epic poetry, political drama, horror and fantasy -- of biblical length and complexity. Think of a fusion between the Matter of Britain, All the President's Men, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, The Witches and Raya and the Last Dragon.

Fairy tales, epics and coming-of-age stories most often end with the protagonist saving the day (or just surviving the day) and then becoming either royalty or retiring from public spotlight for a private life.

It makes sense for Bran to be king.

For me it's a combination of not finding Bran a terribly engaging protagonist and disliking deus ex machina.

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45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For me it's a combination of not finding Bran a terribly engaging protagonist and disliking deus ex machina.

I think Bran's time to shine will come in the last two books. The most engaging thing about Bran is the unusual magic system and sheer unfathomable mysteries of his storylines/chapters. Bran's innate calm melancholic nature and his story in Storm is the main reason why I think nobody really likes or pays attention to him.

He stopped appearing right when his story got super interesting. Bran III is not only one of the most fascinating chapters in the entire series but it's the most interesting Bran has been since Bran VII in Clash.

As for the deus ex machina? I think you're just going to have to pucker up buttercup because this story has a lot of deus ex machinas and there will probably be more. The thing with the deus ex machina in ASOIAF is that:

  • GRRM has had the deus ex machina (at least for now) exclusively favor the villains
  • GRRM does deus ex machina so well, it becomes invisible...nobody notices them

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On 7/4/2021 at 3:35 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

Same as Sansa in s5, which was also something people ignored.

People did not ignore that in s5.

A big part of the problem people had with the Sansa thing was a matter of her youth. The only way it could've been worse is if it was Arya instead.

On 7/2/2021 at 8:30 AM, sifth said:

You know, I come back to this time and time again, but I think Arya surviving getting stabbed 3 times and being thrown into a river, might be the dumbest thing I've seen the show do. The fact that she's patched up and jumping off buildings only two episodes after the fact, only adds salt to the wound. I don't think I've ever seen a show give a character that level of plot armor before.

It's certainly not the dumbest thing if you ask me but it's up there.

I actually remember all of the rants and complaints and questions about that. It all vanished and seemingly forgaven by the general audiences by the time the s6 finale aired.

On 6/30/2021 at 10:07 AM, Cas Stark said:

Also, I always felt like they unconsciously punished the traditionally handsome actors.  

Unconsciously?

It was pretty conscious as far as I am concerned. The only exception to this rule was Jason Momoa and that was because he terrified D&D

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On 7/18/2021 at 11:04 AM, Maia said:

 

I want to thank you for your perseverance and for all the interesting tidbits that you researched and shared in this thread! Good work. I was going through it these last couple of weeks, since I pretty much dropped out of all things GoT and ASoIaF related for the last 2 years. 

As to HoTD, frankly, I can't fathom what GRRM was thinking when he was writing the material for it. I felt that his depiction of women in it and and in FaB was quite problematic and disappointing back when I believed that a great queen was the endgame. Who, by all means could have been Sansa marrying Aegon and doing Catherine the Great, as long as it was well done. But with Bran as endgame, wow! It seems like Martin was going to prove all the naysayers of female succession right?! I honestly don't see how this can be salvaged. I expect it to crash and burn - deservedly so. They should have done the pre-Fall Valyria as Rome with dragons, founding of Braavos and the Faceless Men, Aenar, Daenys the Dreamer - that could have worked. YMMV.

 

I like the Stark siblings - and IMHO a happy ending would have been for at least some of them to come and stay together helping and supporting each other, not to separate forever after a brief and fraught interaction. I hated where the show had left them.

I am also a fan of Tyrion, but of the book version, and I am in no way inclined to white-wash him. His character was destroyed in the show. 

 

I disagree with the notion that the North is this super-special country where nobody looks to their own self-interest and everybody is suicidally loyal to their dead overlords. In books it is fairly clear that Bolton _could_ have been successful if he had a reasonable heir instead of Ramsey. Even Jon thought so.  Tywin's idea was to wait out  what looked to become a very fierce and long winter, have Sansa produce a healthy Lannister-Stark heir and then maybe try to claim the North in his name, buying off the starving opposition. It wasn't a bad plan, if several things fell out his way, but it wasn't the only one. He could also have lived with Bolton in charge.  And IMHO it was mostly intended to fend off Tyrion's ambitions for Casterly Rock.   

Oh, and I wanted to thank you too for all the fascinating excerpts from Hibberd's book and the analysis thereof. You have suffered so that we won't have to!

 

Well, thanks to this thread we know that GRRM is on-record with Sansa's plot-line being very different in the books, so there is that. I think that both @The Dragon Demands and @Count Balerion posted the relevant quote some pages back.

 

yes, there's a quote in FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON where he says LF would never give sansa to the boltons.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/21/2021 at 2:26 PM, Count Balerion said:

also here's an interesting essay on why season 8 was bound to fail:

 

That was good, showed how they dismantled the story and the characters long before the ending, which was just a rush to finish what could never be fixed.

It's remarkable how destructive they were, at every turn. It's like they were drawn to this material for the darkness only, as they removed all meaning from it.

Edited by Le Cygne

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21 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

That was good, showed how they dismantled the story and the characters long before the ending, which was just a rush to finish what could never be fixed.

It's remarkable how destructive they were, at every turn. It's like they were drawn to this material for the darkness only, as they removed all meaning from it.

That’s an excellent presentation.  It’s debatable which character they butchered worst,  it would be easy to say Daenerys, but Jon, Jaime, Tyrion are all contenders, and among lesser figures, Varys and Ellaria.

Why did Jon lose his intelligence and backbone? Why did Tyrion become a moron, or was he a traitor?  Why did a subtle spymaster yell treason out loud?  Why did Ellaria avenge her dead lover by murdering his brother and nephew?

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! "She almost gets him killed!"

And combined with Sophie Turner telling Comiccon that she withheld the information about the Vale Knights because she wanted to get the credit for victory, I don't how anyone can believe that Sansa and Jon were a romantic item. Jon was expendable to her.

Sansa was not Kellerman at Marengo, launching a perfectly timed cavalry charge.

Edited by SeanF

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

That’s an excellent presentation.  It’s debatable which character they butchered worst,  it would be easy to say Daenerys, but Jon, Jaime, Tyrion are all contenders, and among lesser figures, Varys and Ellaria.

Why did Jon lose his intelligence and backbone? Why did Tyrion become a moron, or was he a traitor?  Why did a subtle spymaster yell treason out loud?  Why did Ellaria avenge her dead lover by murdering his brother and nephew?

 

Cersei is a contender for a single season (the last season). She pretty much does nothing for one episode except drink wine and complain about no elephants, then more drinking and staring out of windows, then breaks down as rocks get dropped on her head.

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

And combined with Sophie Turner telling Comiccon that she withheld the information about the Vale Knights because she wanted to get the credit for victory, I don't how anyone can believe that Sansa and Jon were a romantic item. Jon was expendable to her.

Sansa was not Kellerman at Marengo, launching a perfectly timed cavalry charge.

I'll tell you why; they had good onscreen chemistry (better than Jon and Daenerys) in that season, and Sansa gave Jon purpose; he tried to raise an army and fought that battle for hers and Rickon's safety, otherwise Jon would have buggered off to die alone.

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On 7/24/2021 at 6:16 AM, Le Cygne said:

That was good, showed how they dismantled the story and the characters long before the ending, which was just a rush to finish what could never be fixed.

It's remarkable how destructive they were, at every turn. It's like they were drawn to this material for the darkness only, as they removed all meaning from it.

Isn't that what I've been saying, in my thread on Benioff and Weiss making things worse?

 

On 7/24/2021 at 6:00 PM, Count Balerion said:

these performances, these faces.

Sergio Leone they are not.

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Posted (edited)

They basically took every character and erased the best things about them, and did a 180 on their arcs. And that's what they did to Jon Snow.

In the books, Jon is someone who is trying so hard to be noble, and do his duty... and then he hears his beloved Arya is in trouble and he just has to save her.

GRRM shows him thinking of her constantly, and then the worst happens. Arya is in big trouble. He's so worried, and he's just got to do something.

Leading up to this is the drum beat of his remembrances of Arya. He remembers he told her stick 'em with the pointy end, then those are his dying thoughts.

Jon Snow is motivated by love. They replaced a story about love with the glorification of Ramsay Bolton, and turned Jon into a bystander... until the end.

It took quite some doing to take a many-layered and well-loved character, and turn him into a mere plot device for Tyrion at the last minute. Then he was a bystander again.

Edited by Le Cygne

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I just got back from watching The Green Knight and....let me tell you that the people behind A24 should have done Game of Thrones

 

Between HereditaryThe Green Knight (which, I can see now is the inspiration for the Brienne/Jaime/LS plotlines in A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons and soon The Winds of Winter) and Midsommar, they seem to be able to tell an engaging, passionate story and incorporate the use of magic

 

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Posted (edited)

It was all needless, and for nothing. We heard stories like this all along. And instead of accountability, the old boys network rewarded those in charge.

Game Of Thrones’ Lena Headey and Hannah Waddingham have joined forces to discuss the ‘horrific’ 10-hour day spent filming a torture scene.

The duo are scene partners in a number of Game Of Thrones’ most iconic sequences, but most recently have opened up on one particular scene where Septa Unella (Waddingham) is waterboarded by a vengeful Cersei Lannister (played by Headey).

Describing the scene as ‘traumatic’, Waddingham has since spoken out about how she was strapped to a table for 10 hours as wine was repeatedly poured onto her face by Headey.

Reliving the moment alongside Headey in a new interview with Entertainment Weekly, Waddingham said: “People are always quite shocked that that actually did happen in reality and there was nothing CGI’d.

"One thing I’ve said a lot is that both of us were quite uncomfortable about it, but as with all these things, you know that they’re not actually going to kill you so you just get on with it and do it.”...

In a previous interview, Waddingham admitted she was so traumatised by the experience she had to speak to a counsellor about suffering claustrophobia.

She was also left with a fear of water as a result of the torture scene.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-waterboarding-torture-141315814.html

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

The "sad it was ending" talking point they were given added insult to injury. They were treated so badly, then told to say they didn't want it to end.

Kit Harington said that playing Jon Snow on the HBO series "Game of Thrones" broke him down in real life. The actor talked about the impact of working on the intense and often violent HBO series during an interview on SiriusXM's "The Jess Cagle Show."

US Magazine reported that Harington went to a rehab facility in 2019 for stress and alcohol abuse.

“The last season of Thrones seemed to be designed to break us. Everyone was broken at the end,” he told GQ Australia in January 2019. “I don’t know if we were crying because we were sad it was ending or if we were crying because it was so f—king tiring. We were sleep deprived.”

https://crooksandliars.com/2021/08/kit-harrington-game-thrones-directly

Edited by Le Cygne

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