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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yet, it could have been made plausible, had Dany, her commanders, and the armies, been shown as people who had reached snapping point, after months of fighting against a faithless, ruthless enemy, who had left them in the lurch against the Dead.

Just have her paraphrasing Sir Arthur Harris;   "The Lannisters and their supporters entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they could slaughter others and not expect to be slaughtered in turn.  At Harrenhall, Riverrun, Highgarden, and half a hundred other places, they proceeded to put that rather naive theory into effect.  They have sown the wind, and now they shall reap the whirlwind."

The fact is that almost no army in history, in the position of the Unsullied, Dothraki, Northmen, or Valemen,  would be in any mood to display mercy to the defenders of Kings Landing, or the city's inhabitants.  Especially when Cersei responded to an offer of quarter by beheading a prominent prisoner. Every soldier actually behaved in character for an army that takes a city by storm, yet quite dishonestly, this was presented as being completely outside the norms of war, and entirely the fault of Daenerys.  Indeed, the portryal of Daenerys' military campaign from the start of Season 7 was dishonest.  The narrative suggested there was a near-bloodless way of defeating Cersei when that was never an option, and portrayed as sinister the obvious (and least costly in terms of casualties) idea that she should fly to the Red Keep and flatten it.

The Robb Stark and Jon Snow of the books, let alone the Stannis or Tyrion, would have had no compunction about putting the city to the sack, were they placed in a similar position to Daenerys.  Imagine if it was Joffrey beheading Ned on the battlments, or Cersei beheading Arya.

Well there were two issues with the scene:

a) it wasn't clear to the audience why she was burning the city

b) it was jarring for the audience to see her character switch from hero to villain so abruptly

The first issue could probably have been remedied the way you suggest; and if one were being kind to D+D, you could say they thought the same thing as you during the writing process, but that it was lost in translation during the actual execution of the scene.

Unfortunately for them, they've already given away with their own comments that they didn't put the thought into it that you have. DB Weiss said in the behind the scenes featurette:  “I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” and then goes on to say that she basically made the decision on the spot to burn down the city.

So it's funny to see people on the internet try and make excuses for D+D and say things like "well they probably meant this" or "they were probably thinking that" only to have them give away with their own comments that they were basically just winging it.

The second issue with the scene, though, would have been a lot more difficult to remedy. It would have required them to add another season at least, so they could give her a slow descent into tyranny that feels believable. 

Building up a character to be pure and virtuous for 7 seasons, only to have her flip within two episodes, just made it feel like they were playing a prank on the audience rather than writing a serious character arc. So they shouldn't be surprised they got the reaction they got. If you're going to write a pivotal character so haphazardly, don't expect to get a good reaction from the audience.

 

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11 hours ago, Darryk said:

Well there were two issues with the scene:

a) it wasn't clear to the audience why she was burning the city

b) it was jarring for the audience to see her character switch from hero to villain so abruptly

The first issue could probably have been remedied the way you suggest; and if one were being kind to D+D, you could say they thought the same thing as you during the writing process, but that it was lost in translation during the actual execution of the scene.

Unfortunately for them, they've already given away with their own comments that they didn't put the thought into it that you have. DB Weiss said in the behind the scenes featurette:  “I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” and then goes on to say that she basically made the decision on the spot to burn down the city.

So it's funny to see people on the internet try and make excuses for D+D and say things like "well they probably meant this" or "they were probably thinking that" only to have them give away with their own comments that they were basically just winging it.

The second issue with the scene, though, would have been a lot more difficult to remedy. It would have required them to add another season at least, so they could give her a slow descent into tyranny that feels believable. 

Building up a character to be pure and virtuous for 7 seasons, only to have her flip within two episodes, just made it feel like they were playing a prank on the audience rather than writing a serious character arc. So they shouldn't be surprised they got the reaction they got. If you're going to write a pivotal character so haphazardly, don't expect to get a good reaction from the audience.

 

I wouldn't say that Dany was entirely "pure and virtuous".  She could be pretty brutal at times, as well as entitled and arrogant  - but so too were the other sympathetic characters in this tale.  This was a tale set in D & D's version of a medieval world (one can debate how accurate that portrayal is) in which Dany, the Starks, the Lannisters, the Tyrells, all believed that they had the right to rule, based upon their blood;  and that they had the right to use force maintain or restore their positions in this world, and to avenge wrongs done to family.  Neither Robb, nor Jon, nor Sansa, nor Arya disputed that traitors should be put to death, until the rules began to change in Season 7, with the Tarlys.

Dany at least had a cause other than avenging personal wrongs, with her anti-slavery campaign, which was portrayed at the time as heroic, yet retconned as sinister, right at the end.

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On 12/8/2021 at 4:07 PM, SeanF said:

The narrative suggested there was a near-bloodless way of defeating Cersei when that was never an option, and portrayed as sinister the obvious (and least costly in terms of casualties) idea that she should fly to the Red Keep and flatten it.

This is the thing we were supposed to just overlook, that Dany wouldn't just flatten the Red Keep, but instead, wait another season so she could go bonkers over a man ("is that all I am to you? your queen? all right then, let it be fear!"), and Cersei could be "just a girl who needs the comfort of a man."

All because the writers didn't know how to write and have issues. They wrote so much nonsense, for so long, it's hard to speak seriously about it. It's just one stupid thing after another, and in the end, they backed themselves into a corner by the mountain of stupid things they did.

Edited by Le Cygne
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One of the funniest things about GOT is how they constant hyped all the sex and nudity, when almost none of it was actually, well, sexy. They basically had all of the sex scenes be between men and nameless prostitutes, and all the female characters who weren’t prostitutes get assaulted instead. (I also have to wonder if Kit has a bad odor or something, judging by just how uncomfortable Carice and Emilia both looked in their sex scenes with him lol). And by making it so cynical, when the show actually did try to have seductive scenes (like with Arya and Gendry), it ended up feeling exploitative, like some creepy initiation ritual. I mean, Jesus, even the passionately-shipped Jaime and Brienne fell flat. The most sensual scene they were able to pull off was between Missandei and a eunuch.

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19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the funniest things about GOT is how they constant hyped all the sex and nudity, when almost none of it was actually, well, sexy. They basically had all of the sex scenes be between men and nameless prostitutes, and all the female characters who weren’t prostitutes get assaulted instead. (I also have to wonder if Kit has a bad odor or something, judging by just how uncomfortable Carice and Emilia both looked in their sex scenes with him lol). And by making it so cynical, when the show actually did try to have seductive scenes (like with Arya and Gendry), it ended up feeling exploitative, like some creepy initiation ritual. I mean, Jesus, even the passionately-shipped Jaime and Brienne fell flat. The most sensual scene they were able to pull off was between Missandei and a eunuch.

Indeed.

They ended the series on a joke about prostitutes between their self-inserts, Tyrion and Bronn. We were supposed to buy that it was "realistic" for nearly every woman to be sexually assaulted, and yet prostitutes, peasants in a war torn land, were of course absolutely delighted to have sex with these creeps. And hey, isn't it funny?

Shae, the prostitute Tyrion kidnapped and placed in mortal danger for his convenience, adored him! Totes realistic that a slave would beg him, too. Pod, the aged up kid, totes realistic first time! They blathered about the prostitutes in those scenes on the commentary, oblivious to how Pod, a sensitive young boy in the books, might have really been feeling.

They seem to think they did Arya a favor, but it was not what a first time would be, and she was just using a good friend then tossing him aside. Sansa's body was just there to prop up psychopaths, they never let her enjoy her own body. They could have honored these characters with tender scenes, to finish their stories properly.

The focus of Sam and Gilly's first time together on the show was attempted rape. Gendry was also used for another boob opportunity with Mel. In the books he turned down sex with prostitutes, instead they acted like they did him a favor, too. The same with aged up Tommen, they told the actor about it like they did him a favor.

Missandei was aged up for more boob opportunities, which they returned to again and again. It was not realistically what any of these characters would have wanted, in fact, they weren't considered at all. Instead of the tragic scene with Stalwart Shield and the prostitute he just wanted to hold him, they had her strip for yet another boob opportunity.

Benioff and Weiss are so twisted, and they kept passing up all these great opportunities to tell good stories. The characters were begging for things to go differently. They never listened to them.

Edited by Le Cygne
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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed.

They ended the series on a joke about prostitutes between their self-inserts, Tyrion and Bronn. We were supposed to buy that it was "realistic" for nearly every woman to be sexually assaulted, and yet prostitutes, peasants in a war torn land, were of course absolutely delighted to have sex with these creeps. And hey, isn't it funny?

Shae, the prostitute Tyrion kidnapped and placed in mortal danger for his convenience, adored him! Totes realistic that a slave would beg him, too. Pod, the aged up kid, totes realistic first time! They blathered about the prostitutes in those scenes on the commentary, oblivious to how Pod, a sensitive young boy in the books, might have really been feeling.

They seem to think they did Arya a favor, but it was not what a first time would be, and she was just using a good friend then tossing him aside. Sansa's body was just there to prop up psychopaths, they never let her enjoy her own body. They could have honored these characters with tender scenes, to finish their stories properly.

The focus of Sam and Gilly's first time together on the show was attempted rape. Gendry was also used for another boob opportunity with Mel. In the books he turned down sex with prostitutes, instead they acted like they did him a favor, too. The same with aged up Tommen, they told the actor about it like they did him a favor.

Missandei was aged up for more boob opportunities, which they returned to again and again. It was not realistically what any of these characters would have wanted, in fact, they weren't considered at all. Instead of the tragic scene with Stalwart Shield and the prostitute he just wanted to hold him, they had her strip for yet another boob opportunity.

Benioff and Weiss are so twisted, and they kept passing up all these great opportunities to tell good stories. The characters were begging for things to go differently. They never listened to them.

If my memory is correct, Sansa is the only main female character who never had consensual/nonviolent sex. And the fact that she got locked in the rape tower after her “empowering transformation” in the Vale at the end of season four really made it seem like she was being punished for trying to assert herself (and that D&D really don’t understand thematics). 

It is a relief that George seems to have been as disturbed by the additional sexual assault scenes (Dany, Cersei, Sansa) as the rest of us. 

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Remember when the show's version of Littlefinger pushed Lysa Arryn through the Moon Door, and then didn't have a plan for what to do next (versus the book's version who framed the bard), so Sansa lies to save him, and then there's that dramatic scene of her coming down the stairs wearing a black dress, as if she had become Dark Sansa or something?

And then in the next season Littlefinger just sells her to the Boltons, and then is surprised when Ramsay mistreats her, and tells her he didn't know Ramsay was like that?

Wtf were D+D smoking while writing this shit?

 

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2 hours ago, Darryk said:

Remember when the show's version of Littlefinger pushed Lysa Arryn through the Moon Door, and then didn't have a plan for what to do next (versus the book's version who framed the bard), so Sansa lies to save him, and then there's that dramatic scene of her coming down the stairs wearing a black dress, as if she had become Dark Sansa or something?

And then in the next season Littlefinger just sells her to the Boltons, and then is surprised when Ramsay mistreats her, and tells her he didn't know Ramsay was like that?

Wtf were D+D smoking while writing this shit?

 

There is something very ironic about all the people who defended the Sansa rape (many of whom were women) who were then shocked and outraged by the way season eight went. The writing's on the wall, folks.

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24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something from season 8 that I’m surprised doesn’t come up more is how Dany legitimized the son of the king who overthrew her family, And this is presented as some kind of brilliant political move. Definitely an underrated dumb writing decision.

yet, that wasn't dumber than the fact that the son of that king (who was an accepted king by majority) was never a candidate for the throne at the end , all while Edmure Tully and Brandon Stark were!

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15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something from season 8 that I’m surprised doesn’t come up more is how Dany legitimized the son of the king who overthrew her family, And this is presented as some kind of brilliant political move. Definitely an underrated dumb writing decision.

I mean, it's not the best decision but it can work.....possibly. Gendry's only Lord of Storm's End and legitimate because Dany has enough power to back him up. Without the threat of Dothraki and Unsullied (They have the respawn hack) and dragons will do the job. A catatonic wheelchair boy, who implied he let all the suffering and death happen so he and the Bitch in the North Sandra (I despise S7 and S8 Starks, especially Sansa) could rule Westeros, probably doesn't have the strength to uphold it. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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On 12/14/2021 at 7:35 PM, EggBlue said:

yet, that wasn't dumber than the fact that the son of that king (who was an accepted king by majority) was never a candidate for the throne at the end , all while Edmure Tully and Brandon Stark were!

Literally everything about that last episode was painful. Particularly that scene with the meeting.

You can't call it a big meeting as there was no buildup and you definitely can't call it a council.

 

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1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Literally everything about that last episode was painful. Particularly that scene with the meeting.

You can't call it a big meeting as there was no buildup and you definitely can't call it a council.

 

The "council" was one of the most stupidly written scenes in TV history.

Tyrion...the guy on trial for treason...successfully talks the others into crowning the weird kid none of them know king on the basis that he "has the best story".

D+D got so caught up playing pranks on people on set that they lost the ability to tell the difference between playing a prank and writing the finale of the biggest show on television.

 

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2 hours ago, Darryk said:

Tyrion...the guy on trial for treason...successfully talks the others into crowning the weird kid none of them know king on the basis that he "has the best story".

 

Tywin would be rolling in his grave. 

I was wondering why the Dornish and Ironborn, and everyone just decided to hand the realm all over to the Starks. Did they kinda forget all the bad blood between them? 

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2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Tywin would be rolling in his grave. 

I was wondering why the Dornish and Ironborn, and everyone just decided to hand the realm all over to the Starks. Did they kinda forget all the bad blood between them? 

no.. no.. look it's TOTALLY logical:

the Dornish forgot they only married into Targaryens to unite the realm

likewise, the Iron born forgot that they had fought 7 seasons to be independent

they both forgot that they are the only guys not tied to Starks somehow

the rest of the people there forgot that by letting a big piece of country be independent , they chose a foreigner to be their new king.

and Reach was forgotten altogether.

see? 

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On 12/16/2021 at 10:28 AM, Darryk said:

The "council" was one of the most stupidly written scenes in TV history.

Tyrion...the guy on trial for treason...successfully talks the others into crowning the weird kid none of them know king on the basis that he "has the best story".

D+D got so caught up playing pranks on people on set that they lost the ability to tell the difference between playing a prank and writing the finale of the biggest show on television.

 

Plus the fact that Grey Worm allowed Tyrion to speak when he specifically said that he was not allowed to speak .

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On 12/16/2021 at 10:28 AM, Darryk said:

The "council" was one of the most stupidly written scenes in TV history.

Tyrion...the guy on trial for treason...successfully talks the others into crowning the weird kid none of them know king on the basis that he "has the best story".

D+D got so caught up playing pranks on people on set that they lost the ability to tell the difference between playing a prank and writing the finale of the biggest show on television.

 

Ohh that scene has a special place in my memory. So I watched the final with a bunch of my friends that night and when Grey Worm is dragging Tyrion out of prision, a friend of my mine says to me. "Hey, didn't you tell me these Unsullied guys were suppose to be eunuchs. Well look at the bulge between Grey Worms legs" and after that point, my eyes couldn't get away from it for the entire time Grey Worm was on camera, lol

Edited by sifth
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On 12/16/2021 at 9:40 PM, EggBlue said:

no.. no.. look it's TOTALLY logical:

the Dornish forgot they only married into Targaryens to unite the realm

likewise, the Iron born forgot that they had fought 7 seasons to be independent

they both forgot that they are the only guys not tied to Starks somehow

the rest of the people there forgot that by letting a big piece of country be independent , they chose a foreigner to be their new king.

and Reach was forgotten altogether.

see? 

Apparently, there were no nobles or peasants left in the Reach, despite the fact it's larger than modern Turkey, and the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms, and likely has a bigger population than fifteenth century France, in canon.

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