Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I wanted to see Bran as lord of Winterfell, and I still think he may be, if we ever get the ending to the books. But Branbot? Not so much. There was no Sansa on the show. None of the characters were even likeable.

Arya and Dany still had bits and pieces of their real story but it was really hard to pretend it was them. I used to call Sandor just Hound (he didn't even merit a "the" in front) to distinguish him from the real one.

We came up with some good names for the pod people characters here. It was like the characters were all seen through funhouse mirrors, only it wasn't any fun.

I recall Sandra and Carol.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I recall Sandra and Carol.

I think gotgifsandmusings was responsible for those, whose blog I sorely miss. Hopefully she’ll come back for HOTD. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Here’s something that I don’t remember talking about much: Will Brienne kill Stannis in the books, as she did in the show? I don’t see how she could, but there was some set-up in the books.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s something that I don’t remember talking about much: Will Brienne kill Stannis in the books, as she did in the show? I don’t see how she could, but there was some set-up in the books.

I sure hope she doesn't. The difference between books and show is that revenge is awesome on the show. It's like all the lessons humans learn in kindergarten escaped Benioff and Weiss.

Brienne was soft-hearted in the books, but on the show, she was the terminator. We called her Brienne the Brute. There were no shades of gray for Brienne the Brute, her world was black and white.

They stripped the story of meaning at every turn. Needle isn't Jon Snow's smile, it's revenge. And revenge is everything. There's no compassion, no wisdom, no thought at all. No humanity.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Le Cygne

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s something that I don’t remember talking about much: Will Brienne kill Stannis in the books, as she did in the show? I don’t see how she could, but there was some set-up in the books.

doubtful

[BlackLightning]

On 3/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s something that I don’t remember talking about much: Will Brienne kill Stannis in the books, as she did in the show? I don’t see how she could, but there was some set-up in the books.

I think that there more than just some set-up for it in the books. I think that there's a lot of set up for it.

It's very feasible for Brienne to come face-to-face with Stannis and kill him in the next book.

Like, Catelyn once swore to Brienne that when the time came, she would not hold her back from Stannis--that she would allow her to slay Stannis to avenge Renly.

I'm gonna make a thread on it in the Book section.

 

Brienne executing Stannis - in and of itself - is not something that I had a problem with. I actually liked that individual scene, believe it or not.

What I didn't like was everything else pertaining to both Stannis and Brienne that season.

[SeanF]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:17 PM, Le Cygne said:

I sure hope she doesn't. The difference between books and show is that revenge is awesome on the show. It's like all the lessons humans learn in kindergarten escaped Benioff and Weiss.

Brienne was soft-hearted in the books, but on the show, she was the terminator. We called her Brienne the Brute. There were no shades of gray for Brienne the Brute, her world was black and white.

They stripped the story of meaning at every turn. Needle isn't Jon Snow's smile, it's revenge. And revenge is everything. There's no compassion, no wisdom, no thought at all. No humanity.

Arya seemed to be receiving orgasm as she watched Walder Frey die in front of her.   in general, she just loved to play with her food.

I would qualify your statement to say that revenge was awesome, so long as it was being done by or on behalf of House Stark, or by Tyrion.

Edited March 28, 2022 by SeanF

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Arya seemed to be receiving orgasm as she watched Walder Frey die in front of her.

I did not get that impression...

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I did not get that impression...

The look on her face is ecstatic

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The look on her face is ecstatic

Maybe, but I still wouldn't go that far.

[Le Cygne]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:29 AM, SeanF said:

Arya seemed to be receiving orgasm as she watched Walder Frey die in front of her.   in general, she just loved to play with her food.

I would qualify your statement to say that revenge was awesome, so long as it was being done by or on behalf of House Stark, or by Tyrion.

I would extend that to Lannisters, except for Jaime, who for a time (and only a time, sadly) was allowed to stray from the Lannisters. Cersei was presented as awesome to the very end, even as she did horrific things.

Benioff and Weiss seemed to find all manner of violence awesome, there really was no good guy, other than Saint Tyrion. They didn't like the Starks. They called Ramsay a badass while he was torturing a Stark.

There was also the Sand Fakes, badassery with boobs. I'm surprised they didn't have Arya strip when she killed Walder Frey. Fake Elaria, with her 180 from the books revenge is everything "plot" was awesome, too.

Littlefinger, they made up the disgusting revenge on Ros scene and presented it like he was a badass, too. They never brought it up again. Villains and revenge was pretty much universally presented as badassery.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I would extend that to Lannisters, except for Jaime, who for a time (and only a time, sadly) was allowed to stray from the Lannisters. Cersei was presented as awesome to the very end, even as she did horrific things.

Benioff and Weiss seemed to find all manner of violence awesome, there really was no good guy, other than Saint Tyrion. They didn't like the Starks. They called Ramsay a badass while he was torturing a Stark.

There was also the Sand Fakes, badassery with boobs. I'm surprised they didn't have Arya strip when she killed Walder Frey. Fake Elaria, with her 180 from the books revenge is everything "plot" was awesome, too.

Littlefinger, they made up the disgusting revenge on Ros scene and presented it like he was a badass, too. They never brought it up again. Villains and revenge was pretty much universally presented as badassery.

I'd forgotten that horrid scene.

They really did fetishise violence against women.  What ended with Daenerys being romantically stabbed through the heart, began with Joffrey torturing for kicks. Though come to think of it, Daenerys' arc was about being molested by her brother and raped on her wedding night, ending with being murdered by her nephew and lover.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'd forgotten that horrid scene.

They really did fetishise violence against women.  What ended with Daenerys being romantically stabbed through the heart, began with Joffrey torturing for kicks. Though come to think of it, Daenerys' arc was about being molested by her brother and raped on her wedding night, ending with being murdered by her nephew and lover.

They never saw Dany (or any of the others) as a person. She was just a thing, to have things done to, and to do things back. Rinse and repeat. Their worldview is just so rotten. And empty.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Le Cygne

[Darryk]

20 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They never saw Dany (or any of the others) as a person. She was just a thing, to have things done to, and to do things back. Rinse and repeat. Their worldview is just so rotten. And empty.

We really makes you wonder how they managed to create such a brilliant first season with so many strong, emotional moments between characters.

Hard to believe the same guys did season 5 to 8.

I don't know what D+D are like in really life, maybe they're nice guys, but some of the decisions they made story-wise were borderline psychotic, like having the Red Wedding start off with a pregnant woman getting stabbed.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

I don't know what D+D are like in really life, maybe they're nice guys, but some of the decisions they made story-wise were borderline psychotic, like having the Red Wedding start off with a pregnant woman getting stabbed.

they might have just gotten carried away from season 4 . to be fair , in the example pf Red Wedding , starting off with Robb's wife's death did have the impact intended for something like Red Wedding: to be utterly gut wrenching . although , some of their decisions in the earlier seasons , like Jofferey's treatment of whores in his bedroom , Qarth's unnecessary sack and starting off Danny's romance with Drogo with rape , were questionable and maybe should have warned us about the path they were taking with the rest of the series. 

[Darryk]

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

they might have just gotten carried away from season 4 . to be fair , in the example pf Red Wedding , starting off with Robb's wife's death did have the impact intended for something like Red Wedding: to be utterly gut wrenching . although , some of their decisions in the earlier seasons , like Jofferey's treatment of whores in his bedroom , Qarth's unnecessary sack and starting off Danny's romance with Drogo with rape , were questionable and maybe should have warned us about the path they were taking with the rest of the series. 

I think it's weird that they felt they needed to make the Red Wedding MORE shocking than it already was.

It's also just disturbing they went to all this effort (writing a new character for Robb's wife, having her get pregnant, having Robb stupidly take her with the Red Wedding etc) just so they could manufacture a situation in which a pregnant woman gets stabbed onscreen.

Like, pregnant woman getting stabbed is something I think most directors, even the most sadistic ones would shy away from unless they absolutely had to do it, but these guys did it enthusiastically rather than reluctantly.

 

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

I think it's weird that they felt they needed to make the Red Wedding MORE shocking than it already was.

It's also just disturbing they went to all this effort (writing a new character for Robb's wife, having her get pregnant, having Robb stupidly take her with the Red Wedding etc) just so they could manufacture a situation in which a pregnant woman gets stabbed onscreen.

Like, pregnant woman getting stabbed is something I think most directors, even the most sadistic ones would shy away from unless they absolutely had to do it, but these guys did it enthusiastically rather than reluctantly.

 

I don't think the only reason for that was shock value.  by creating Talisa instead of Jeyne , they created a mess for themselves . I remember many theories about how she was Tywin's agent for some letter she was once writing . they clearly couldn't give whatever role George has stored up for Westerling family to this not-so-well-thought new character , so they had to kill her off alongside Robb . killing one of the major characters in the start of Red Wedding wasn't such a bad idea in my opinion since it set it in stone that Red Wedding wasn't just some not so terrible pay off for Robb's betrayal ( as some book fans oddly think so) , rather it was a non-defendable monstrosity . the bad idea was making her pregnant . although , to play devil's advocate, one could argue that pregnancy gave more innocence to their sloppy suspicious new character or that they better made their point by having Freys doing one of the worst atrocities ( which for some fans can't be said about killing King Robb and his allies) .  anyways, on it's own this doesn't suggest anything about the nature of the writers. it's in the light of purposeless violent acts (like Ros's death or Joff & whores) , that one would doubt D&D's ability to see beyond what their scenes represents . 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think the only reason for that was shock value.  by creating Talisa instead of Jeyne , they created a mess for themselves . I remember many theories about how she was Tywin's agent for some letter she was once writing . they clearly couldn't give whatever role George has stored up for Westerling family to this not-so-well-thought new character , so they had to kill her off alongside Robb . killing one of the major characters in the start of Red Wedding wasn't such a bad idea in my opinion since it set it in stone that Red Wedding wasn't just some not so terrible pay off for Robb's betrayal ( as some book fans oddly think so) , rather it was a non-defendable monstrosity . the bad idea was making her pregnant . although , to play devil's advocate, one could argue that pregnancy gave more innocence to their sloppy suspicious new character or that they better made their point by having Freys doing one of the worst atrocities ( which for some fans can't be said about killing King Robb and his allies) .  anyways, on it's own this doesn't suggest anything about the nature of the writers. it's in the light of purposeless violent acts (like Ros's death or Joff & whores) , that one would doubt D&D's ability to see beyond what their scenes represents . 

To me, it's their behaviour towards various actors that comes over as borderline psychopathic, like spending ten hours waterboarding the actress playing Unella, to the point where she developed a phobia of water.   One of the horrible things about the whole Ros scene is my recent discovery that the actress in question was being horrendously abused by her boyfriend at the time.

[sifth]

On 4/2/2022 at 1:51 PM, EggBlue said:

I don't think the only reason for that was shock value.  by creating Talisa instead of Jeyne , they created a mess for themselves . I remember many theories about how she was Tywin's agent for some letter she was once writing . they clearly couldn't give whatever role George has stored up for Westerling family to this not-so-well-thought new character , so they had to kill her off alongside Robb . killing one of the major characters in the start of Red Wedding wasn't such a bad idea in my opinion since it set it in stone that Red Wedding wasn't just some not so terrible pay off for Robb's betrayal ( as some book fans oddly think so) , rather it was a non-defendable monstrosity . the bad idea was making her pregnant . although , to play devil's advocate, one could argue that pregnancy gave more innocence to their sloppy suspicious new character or that they better made their point by having Freys doing one of the worst atrocities ( which for some fans can't be said about killing King Robb and his allies) .  anyways, on it's own this doesn't suggest anything about the nature of the writers. it's in the light of purposeless violent acts (like Ros's death or Joff & whores) , that one would doubt D&D's ability to see beyond what their scenes represents . 

A big problem with the tv shows version of the Red Wedding, is we didn't get to know Robb's bannermen and lords all that well. So all those character were really just a bunch of faceless extras and not the characters the reader came to know and possibly care about. So their deaths during the Red Wedding on the show had no effect on the audience. They needed something to replace the death of characters the readers came to care about, and their solution was Robb's pregnant wife getting violently murdered. That's my guess anyway.

Edited April 3, 2022 by sifth

[Le Cygne]

Vince Gilligan talking about how to write a good show (this part excerpt starts around 25:00). Benioff and Weiss did the opposite with Game of Thrones.

It's very tricky it's very you know it's why it's why it's such a group effort, it's why we have you know it's why I never wrote Breaking Bad all by myself and and why Peter doesn't write Better Call Saul all by himself...

It really takes it takes a village and it takes time... you need a lot of really smart people and then you need to sit around a table for weeks and months on end and figure out this chess game...

That's what we have to do for all these characters and we have to do it because it's Storytelling 101 rules but the one I'm talking about now is you don't want to write stupid characters unless you're doing Dumb and Dumber the movie...

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Le Cygne