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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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Just now, SeanF said:

The Bells could have been brilliant, had it been anything other than a device to justify Jon killing Dany.

There we’re so many ways it could be made more plausible, eg a surrender that gets botched, causing the attackers to think they’re being betrayed;  a bitter urban street fight that leaves a choice between retreating and unleashing dragon fire; or even the attackers grimly exacting vengeance on the followers of a woman who rejected quarter and slew a prominent prisoner.  

Or maybe Daenerys blowing herself up by accident by unknowingly setting fire to a cache of wildfire? That would be epic (if silly).

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I keep seeing people say that Season 8 was only D&D’s fault, and not also HBO’s, and that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, HBO offered to do more seasons, but they were still the ones who signed every check and approved every decision. They gave D&D the license to do whatever they wanted with minimal oversight, and if they really didn’t like something, they could have overruled them. 

And look, as much as I respect George, it has become abundantly clear that the show would have finished before TWOW was released, no matter how long it went on for. I also don’t think more seasons would have helped with the pacing. Even with ten seasons, I’m willing to bet they would have saved Dany’s heel turn for the last three episodes. They wanted things to be shocking, and they wanted to keep receiving praise for creating “feminist heroes.” 
 

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On 5/18/2022 at 12:12 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The main takeaway from both stories is “bitches be crazy” (it’s just done better and is more Watsonian in the books). I can’t see how HOTD doesn’t result in more backlash.

I'm really curious how is HBO going to spin this? The series will end on another dragon queen betrayed and murdered after being denied her "birthright". This is how the mainstream watchers will see it... 

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15 hours ago, Darryk said:

Reddit / Freefolk is still going strong too. That site gave me so much joy in the wake of the season 8 trainwreck.

They really did her dirty.

I like to see D+D as talented and decent individuals who just got really lazy and arrogant, but the way they reacted to Ian McElhinney's disappointment just makes them sound like prats.

 

The ten hour waterboarding of the actress who played Unella, the fetishisation of Ros’ death, the depictions of happy sex slaves, and the unfunny practical jokes, show them in a pretty poor light, too.

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2 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I'm really curious how is HBO going to spin this? The series will end on another dragon queen betrayed and murdered after being denied her "birthright". This is how the mainstream watchers will see it... 

In a way , I feel sorry if HotD's ending faces backlash for Game of Thrones's ending.. which it most likely will... Rhaenyra , although facing a tragic ending , is not built up to be seen as a "mad queen" who deserves what comes next , rather someone who pushes away her remaining allies after facing betrayals over and over again . and yet after her death , her allies keep fighting in her name . the difference there is that apparently D&D did not understand what they were doing with Daenerys's character. they were apparently going for a "the bitch deserved it" ending ! however , what they came up with was a more unjustly(and illogical as well as not at all developed)  version of Rhaenyra's which basically sucks . because Rhaenyra's ending makes sense, Daenerys 's doesn't. Daenerys , unlike Rhaenyra, never pushed her allies away herself . her doubts about Varys , Jon , Sansa , etc. were spot on . the man who killed her wasn't a brother she never had a relationship with , rather a lover. and her allies she had risked everything for (including her "children") , aka Sansa/Varys/Tyrion, were talking about her demise even before her snap . 

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19 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

In a way , I feel sorry if HotD's ending faces backlash for Game of Thrones's ending.. which it most likely will... Rhaenyra , although facing a tragic ending , is not built up to be seen as a "mad queen" who deserves what comes next , rather someone who pushes away her remaining allies after facing betrayals over and over again . and yet after her death , her allies keep fighting in her name . the difference there is that apparently D&D did not understand what they were doing with Daenerys's character. they were apparently going for a "the bitch deserved it" ending ! however , what they came up with was a more unjustly(and illogical as well as not at all developed)  version of Rhaenyra's which basically sucks . because Rhaenyra's ending makes sense, Daenerys 's doesn't. Daenerys , unlike Rhaenyra, never pushed her allies away herself . her doubts about Varys , Jon , Sansa , etc. were spot on . the man who killed her wasn't a brother she never had a relationship with , rather a lover. and her allies she had risked everything for (including her "children") , aka Sansa/Varys/Tyrion, were talking about her demise even before her snap . 

You aren't paranoid if they're out to get you.  Sansa/Varys/Sam wanted her dead.  Arya despised her because she wasn't a Stark. Tyrion was (to put it as kindly as possible) grossly incompetent.  Jon first lied about his reasons for bending the knee, then ghosted her, upon discovering his parentage.

How would any leader in Daenerys' position come to any other conclusion than that she was being betrayed, by her ostensible allies and supporters?

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11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I keep seeing people say that Season 8 was only D&D’s fault, and not also HBO’s, and that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, HBO offered to do more seasons, but they were still the ones who signed every check and approved every decision. They gave D&D the license to do whatever they wanted with minimal oversight, and if they really didn’t like something, they could have overruled them. 

And look, as much as I respect George, it has become abundantly clear that the show would have finished before TWOW was released, no matter how long it went on for. I also don’t think more seasons would have helped with the pacing. Even with ten seasons, I’m willing to bet they would have saved Dany’s heel turn for the last three episodes. They wanted things to be shocking, and they wanted to keep receiving praise for creating “feminist heroes.” 
 

I think it's better for the producers not to interfere in the creative process, even if the creatives don't know what they're doing.

HBO doesn't interfere (I think) which is why they make so many great shows, it's not their fault the writers for this one didn't know what they were doing.

What HBO could have done though is strongly recommend that D+D hire a team of writers. Or maybe they did that.

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47 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

doesn't it take like half an hour for a person to die from burning? poor Rhaenyra had felt it all...

Dragonfire melts stone, impling a temperature of over 1,200 degrees, so one can assume that death would be pretty well instantaneous.

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17 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I'm really curious how is HBO going to spin this? The series will end on another dragon queen betrayed and murdered after being denied her "birthright". This is how the mainstream watchers will see it... 

Admittedly Rhaenyra's line wins out (posthumously) since her son Aegon III accedes to the throne while Aegon II's line ends with all of his children dying young.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2022 at 5:06 PM, SeanF said:

The Bells could have been brilliant, had it been anything other than a device to justify Jon killing Dany.

There we’re so many ways it could be made more plausible, eg a surrender that gets botched, causing the attackers to think they’re being betrayed;  a bitter urban street fight that leaves a choice between retreating and unleashing dragon fire; or even the attackers grimly exacting vengeance on the followers of a woman who rejected quarter and slew a prominent prisoner.  

Imagine if they had kept Aegon and it had been a battle above King’s Landing? Ahh

When The Bells premiered, I was in Italy, the first (and so far only) time I’ve visited Europe. I wasn’t able to watch the full episode because of whatever fine print HBO uses, but most of the clips were already uploaded on YouTube by the time I woke up. The crazy thing is, I took a bus tour to San Gimiginano that day, and it was the first time I was in an old medieval town like that. It helped me visualize the clips I’d watched and made it much easier to place myself in those scenes. It was a pretty neat coincidence.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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Does anyone else seriously doubt that Cersei will burn KL in the books? That seems to me to have been a fanservice thing, ala Cleganebowl. In the books, Cersei has already been removed from power. I actually find it more likely that she'll try to blow up Casterly Rock in some absurdly paranoid move to prevent Dany or Aegon or whoever from taking it. 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does anyone else seriously doubt that Cersei will burn KL in the books? That seems to me to have been a fanservice thing, ala Cleganebowl. In the books, Cersei has already been removed from power. I actually find it more likely that she'll try to blow up Casterly Rock in some absurdly paranoid move to prevent Dany or Aegon or whoever from taking it. 

I’m inclined to agree.

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I will say this about Season 8: ending with the final fight for the throne (and its aftermath) instead of the White Walkers made sense to me. I've heard all the arguments that the fight against the army of the dead is supposed to transcend human politics and force everyone to put their squabbles aside, but that doesn't mean their alliance is indefinite. Russia and the UK/US were forced to work together during WWII, but that alliance fell apart almost as soon as Japan surrendered. The consequences of the war were enormous: the British Empire was dismantled, the USA renounced isolationism, the Soviet Union was born and Stalin killed a lot more of his own people. And then there are the dozens of other countries that were now profoundly changed. It makes sense to me that the battle for power would resume after the Walkers were defeated, that there would be more bloodshed, and that GOT/ASOIAF would want to show us that. 

It's one of the reasons why I'm so sad we'll likely never see the end of the book series. I'd love to read about all of that.

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15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does anyone else seriously doubt that Cersei will burn KL in the books? That seems to me to have been a fanservice thing, ala Cleganebowl. In the books, Cersei has already been removed from power. I actually find it more likely that she'll try to blow up Casterly Rock in some absurdly paranoid move to prevent Dany or Aegon or whoever from taking it. 

She would have to get back to Casterly Rock somehow; nobody seems to like the place really.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I will say this about Season 8: ending with the final fight for the throne (and its aftermath) instead of the White Walkers made sense to me. I've heard all the arguments that the fight against the army of the dead is supposed to transcend human politics and force everyone to put their squabbles aside, but that doesn't mean their alliance is indefinite. Russia and the UK/US were forced to work together during WWII, but that alliance fell apart almost as soon as Japan surrendered. The consequences of the war were enormous: the British Empire was dismantled, the USA renounced isolationism, the Soviet Union was born and Stalin killed a lot more of his own people. And then there are the dozens of other countries that were now profoundly changed. It makes sense to me that the battle for power would resume after the Walkers were defeated, that there would be more bloodshed, and that GOT/ASOIAF would want to show us that. 

It's one of the reasons why I'm so sad we'll likely never see the end of the book series. I'd love to read about all of that.

One could sketch out a plausible scenario.

1.  Dany fights a savage battle for Kings Landing against Aegon and Arianne.  As her forces close in on the capital, Jon Connington and the Sands murder Tommen, Margaery and Myrcella, who have been kept as hostages in the Red Keep.

Much of the city burns in the fighting. Aegon is killed, Arianne, defiant to the last refuses to bend the knee, and is executed by Dany.

2.  Dany, having crushed her enemies, demands that the lords of the Seven Kingdoms give fealty.  Most agree, but Dorne and the North refuse.  Dany readies for war against them.

3.  The Wall is breached.  Dany is persuaded (by Jon/Sansa?) to agree a truce in order to fight the Others.  Victory is achieved, at enormous cost.  She and Jon become lovers, and for a time, there is a rapprochement between her and Starks.  The Northmen are not xenophobic morons, as in the show, and are genuinely grateful for Dany’s military aid, but…..

4.  The North’s desire for independence can’t be squared with Dany’s insistence that  all Seven Kingdoms remain united, and the last round of warfare commences.

Nobody has to be vilified in that scenario.

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D&D had most likely seen the Bells Madness hints in JonCon chapters and thought "how cool would it be if we have that!" then took a look at AA/NN story and thought "eureka! ... Dany's mother of dragons , so what if Jon is AA? .. a huge chunk of fandom theorize that ... they'll like it!" .. if only they knew how they were fucking it up..  .  my point is , we can't possibly rely on whatever storyline the show had and think it's some distorted version of the books which we should try and work in the future books , save for the famous three plot points perhaps. anything in the show such as Cersei's wildfire plot , Bells , AA , etc. may or may not find its way to books but only as much as other fan theories . 

PS. SeanF , I like your scenario , you should have helped D&D :)

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