Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

as someone who has read the books specifically to read something other than the shit show GoT presented , I must do the same ...

 

believe it or not , I almost felt sorry for Jon! especially in "ally" part.. really, where is Starks' common sense? they DO NEED ALLIES 

As I said, what were the Northern Lords thinking? They wanted to defend against the Long Night with a couple Valyrian Steel swords and fire (which nobody used).

[EggBlue]

49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As I said, what were the Northern Lords thinking? They wanted to defend against the Long Night with a couple Valyrian Steel swords and fire (which nobody used).

eh.. I don't know if extreme climates can affect brain's function but cold certainly does that in show North

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

eh.. I don't know if extreme climates can affect brain's function but cold certainly does that in show North

Maybe they were expecting Arya to spring out of a tree on the Night King.

[Darryk]

On 7/14/2022 at 10:24 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Have you guys seen this video? It made me laugh, but also made me feel embarrassed.

 

 

Arya: "That's okay, I don't need many allies" 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, Darryk said:

 

Arya: "That's okay, I don't need many allies" 

The sad part is that she was right. It turned out all she needed was for Beric to stand in a doorway like Jesus and for Mel to tell her to go close some blue eyes.

Did any other character besides Arya kill a walker during the long night? I don’t remember any.

[EggBlue]

I'm beginning to think GoT is a cynical dark comedy.. which is not masterfully done:

- be a treacherous  sellsword with the sole dream of spending more on brothels: be rewarded with ruling the richest land in the country 

- end slavery and stop magical creatures from ending humanity until the little kid realizes she should jump from behind a tree : be stabbed to death by your lover and only living family member

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I'm beginning to think GoT is a cynical dark comedy.. which is not masterfully done:

- be a treacherous  sellsword with the sole dream of spending more on brothels: be rewarded with ruling the richest land in the country 

- end slavery and stop magical creatures from ending humanity until the little kid realizes she should jump from behind a tree : be stabbed to death by your lover and only living family member

Not so much dark comedy as an anti-morality tale.

People who try to do good (Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Dany, Jon) are stupid saps who fail miserably, and deserve to fail miserably.

Those who deserve to succeed are those who learn to play The Game (Tyrion, Sansa, Bronn, maybe Bran).

It was a child’s version of The Prince (despite his reputation, Macchiavelli advocated pragmatism, not amorality, on the part of rulers).

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Not so much dark comedy as an anti-morality tale.

People who try to do good (Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Dany, Jon) are stupid saps who fail miserably, and deserve to fail miserably.

Those who deserve to succeed are those who learn to play The Game (Tyrion, Sansa, Bronn, maybe Bran).

 

Well, the books are pretty close on that regard; Ned's attempt to show mercy to Cersei backfires in his face and makes a succession crisis worse, Catelyn's protectiveness sparks a war which results in her being killed and becoming a vengeful zombie, Robb not wanting to abandon the woman he bedded gets him killed (I guess being a sociopath like John Willoughby pays dividends), Daenerys wanting to keep the peace between the slave masters and the slaves helps no one and prolongs the conflict, Jon's attempt to balance the wildlings and the Night's Watch gets him killed... presumably. Meanwhile Littlefinger's cutthroat ways only lead to him going higher and higher with money, land, and even the "custody" of the daughter of the woman he wanted (despite his slander of Catelyn should have had him executed by now). Plus Aerys I's show of mercy towards Bittersteel in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion led to him escaping and causing trouble a couple of decades down the line.

[EggBlue]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the books are pretty close on that regard; Ned's attempt to show mercy to Cersei backfires in his face and makes a succession crisis worse, Catelyn's protectiveness sparks a war which results in her being killed and becoming a vengeful zombie, Robb not wanting to abandon the woman he bedded gets him killed (I guess being a sociopath like John Willoughby pays dividends), Daenerys wanting to keep the peace between the slave masters and the slaves helps no one and prolongs the conflict, Jon's attempt to balance the wildlings and the Night's Watch gets him killed... presumably. Meanwhile Littlefinger's cutthroat ways only lead to him going higher and higher with money, land, and even the "custody" of the daughter of the woman he wanted (despite his slander of Catelyn should have had him executed by now).

we should wait and see of course but it feels like that at the end of the books the survivors will be the ones who preserve their humanity and compassion at all costs. Sansa is still a good person at heart, just more seasoned, despite her experiences with Joffrey and Littlefinger. Bran who has seen all his friends die in Winterfell ,likewise, thinks of how men only take revenge while children don't and seems to be going in Children's direction. Dany has her line of "Dragons don't sow" but we still need to see what she'll do . my assumption is she won't turn into "the bitch who needs to be put down".  meanwhile, all the Littlefingers and Cerseis get seems to be temporary victories.

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

we should wait and see of course but it feels like that at the end of the books the survivors will be the ones who preserve their humanity and compassion at all costs. Sansa is still a good person at heart, just more seasoned, despite her experiences with Joffrey and Littlefinger. Bran who has seen all his friends die in Winterfell ,likewise, thinks of how men only take revenge while children don't and seems to be going in Children's direction. Dany has her line of "Dragons don't sow" but we still need to see what she'll do . my assumption is she won't turn into "the bitch who needs to be put down".  meanwhile, all the Littlefingers and Cerseis get seems to be temporary victories.

Well, pretty much everyone is trending downward morality-wise, except for maybe Jaime and he's walking into a trap.

[Darryk]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:45 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the books are pretty close on that regard; Ned's attempt to show mercy to Cersei backfires in his face and makes a succession crisis worse, Catelyn's protectiveness sparks a war which results in her being killed and becoming a vengeful zombie, Robb not wanting to abandon the woman he bedded gets him killed (I guess being a sociopath like John Willoughby pays dividends), Daenerys wanting to keep the peace between the slave masters and the slaves helps no one and prolongs the conflict, Jon's attempt to balance the wildlings and the Night's Watch gets him killed... presumably. Meanwhile Littlefinger's cutthroat ways only lead to him going higher and higher with money, land, and even the "custody" of the daughter of the woman he wanted (despite his slander of Catelyn should have had him executed by now). Plus Aerys I's show of mercy towards Bittersteel in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion led to him escaping and causing trouble a couple of decades down the line.

a) Cersei rewarded Ned Stark's honor by giving him the chance to return home safely to Winterfell. Ned Stark chose to remain and try to seize the control of the throne, so in a sense, he brought it on himself.

b) When things were collapsing for Robb Stark, Catelyn begged him to make peace with Tywin Lannister, which Tywin no doubt would have accepted. Robb chose to pursue revenge instead. Like Ned, he brought it on himself.

c) Granted on Dany and Jon, though Jon's decision may end up saving the real in the long-term, which would make his honorable behavior worth the sacrifice even if he did stay dead.

d) We don't know how Littelfinger's story will end.

Personally I think there is an arc of justice running throughout the books that the show missed. For example, Tywin is the better player of the game but his allies abandoned the Lannisters as soon as he died, because they were only following him out of fear. In contrast, Ned may have lost the game but his honorable ways won him the respect of his lords who remain loyal to the Starks even after his death.

So there are themes like these running throughout the give the books a sense of romanticism whereas the show was nihilistic. I think GRRM may be showing that honorable behavior pays off in the long-term even if it may have a price in the short-term, and also showing that the pursuit of revenge only makes things worse.

 

[Angel Eyes]

46 minutes ago, Darryk said:

a) Cersei rewarded Ned Stark's honor by giving him the chance to return home safely to Winterfell. Ned Stark chose to remain and try to seize the control of the throne, so in a sense, he brought it on himself.

b) When things were collapsing for Robb Stark, Catelyn begged him to make peace with Tywin Lannister, which Tywin no doubt would have accepted. Robb chose to pursue revenge instead. Like Ned, he brought it on himself.

c) Granted on Dany and Jon, though Jon's decision may end up saving the real in the long-term, which would make his honorable behavior worth the sacrifice even if he did stay dead.

d) We don't know how Littelfinger's story will end.

Personally I think there is an arc of justice running throughout the books that the show missed. For example, Tywin is the better player of the game but his allies abandoned the Lannisters as soon as he died, because they were only following him out of fear. In contrast, Ned may have lost the game but his honorable ways won him the respect of his lords who remain loyal to the Starks even after his death.

So there are themes like these running throughout the give the books a sense of romanticism whereas the show was nihilistic. I think GRRM may be showing that honorable behavior pays off in the long-term even if it may have a price in the short-term, and also showing that the pursuit of revenge only makes things worse.

 

a) Would Joffrey on the throne be a good option, especially since Cersei lets him do as he pleases most of the time (he slips his ropes quite a lot with beheaded Ned and abusing Sansa)?

b) House Reyne and Elia Martell would tell you differently.

d) If Littlefinger's story ends.

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

a) Would Joffrey on the throne be a good option, especially since Cersei lets him do as he pleases most of the time (he slips his ropes quite a lot with beheaded Ned and abusing Sansa)?

b) House Reyne and Elia Martell would tell you differently.

d) If Littlefinger's story ends.

a) No, Joffrey remaining on the throne wouldn't be a good option, but Ned Stark did not have to seize that particular moment to do something abut it. Yes, his honorable ways played a big role in getting him to that situation, but I don't think the character was being "punished for being honorable" as some suggest, because Cersei gave him the chance to leave King's Landing safely.

b) Tywin's a ruthless bastard but it would not have been in his interests to continue the war against Robb, he wanted to focus on Stannis so I think he would've accepted a peace from Robb if it was offered. But Robb was bent on the pursuit of revenge, and I think the pursuit of revenge is what characters suffer for in ASOIF, more so than honorable behavior.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:00 PM, SeanF said:

Not so much dark comedy as an anti-morality tale.

It's also an anti-tale tale. The show went back to square one with just about all of the characters.

Dany is betrayed by her family again, Jon is exiled to the Wall again, Tyrion is hand of the king again (and he and Bronn are walking talking brothel jokes again), Arya is wandering around with Needle again, Sansa is all about a tiara again, Sandor is all about revenge again, Jaime is all about Cersei again, and so on.

I put some reviews blasting them about what they did to Jaime and Sandor below, and this pretty much sums it up (from a video about character arcs), but they all said similar things:

"The story is making a pretty bleak argument, that we are unable to change in any meaningful way... The manner in which these characters are handled directly contradicts and invalidates the central themes of their stories... We thought we were watching a story about how redemption was possible even for the worst among us... but in the final moments, everything flips on a dime and we find out that no, this is actually a story about how redemption is not possible."

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

It's also an anti-tale tale. The show went back to square one with just about all of the characters.

Dany is betrayed by her family again, Jon is exiled to the Wall again, Tyrion is hand of the king again (and he and Bronn are walking talking brothel jokes again), Arya is wandering around with Needle again, Sansa is all about a tiara again, Sandor is all about revenge again, Jaime is all about Cersei again, and so on.

I put some reviews blasting them about what they did to Jaime and Sandor below, and this pretty much sums it up (from a video about character arcs), but they all said similar things:

"The story is making a pretty bleak argument, that we are unable to change in any meaningful way... The manner in which these characters are handled directly contradicts and invalidates the central themes of their stories... We thought we were watching a story about how redemption was possible even for the worst among us... but in the final moments, everything flips on a dime and we find out that no, this is actually a story about how redemption is not possible."

 

Nobody's really trending towards redemption in the books, except for maybe Jaime. And that isn't without a caveat...

[Le Cygne]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:16 PM, Darryk said:

a) Cersei rewarded Ned Stark's honor by giving him the chance to return home safely to Winterfell. Ned Stark chose to remain and try to seize the control of the throne, so in a sense, he brought it on himself.

b) When things were collapsing for Robb Stark, Catelyn begged him to make peace with Tywin Lannister, which Tywin no doubt would have accepted. Robb chose to pursue revenge instead. Like Ned, he brought it on himself.

c) Granted on Dany and Jon, though Jon's decision may end up saving the real in the long-term, which would make his honorable behavior worth the sacrifice even if he did stay dead.

d) We don't know how Littelfinger's story will end.

Personally I think there is an arc of justice running throughout the books that the show missed. For example, Tywin is the better player of the game but his allies abandoned the Lannisters as soon as he died, because they were only following him out of fear. In contrast, Ned may have lost the game but his honorable ways won him the respect of his lords who remain loyal to the Starks even after his death.

So there are themes like these running throughout the give the books a sense of romanticism whereas the show was nihilistic. I think GRRM may be showing that honorable behavior pays off in the long-term even if it may have a price in the short-term, and also showing that the pursuit of revenge only makes things worse.

 

Yeah, lots of themes running through the books, but the show is nihilistic. Nothing is just nothing was their line, and they sure served up a lot of nothing.

Ned was honorable but didn't play the game, but that doesn't mean to stop being honorable, it means to learn to play the game in order to do honorable things. In other words, evolve, to learn how to survive while not giving up your principles. Which is a pretty common theme in drama. Revenge is definitely shown to be not the desirable thing (Ellaria makes that point clear), it's justice, as you say. There was a line on a show last night to that effect - someone's son died and he said the gangs live by revenge, but justice is something different (and unspoken, the loftier goal).

There are also many redemption arcs in the books. Some are for greater wrongs than others, but most characters are trying to make up for something they did or some failure to do something that caused harm to others. Some are very subtle (like Sansa, GRRM talks about that here), some are quite dramatic (like Jaime and Sandor, in parallel Beauty and the Beast stories) and some tragic (like Theon). To take the easiest path is not courageous, so there's a lot of gathering up one's courage, and feelings of shame over being less than courageous. This leads to many of the most pivotal moments in the books.

There's a lot of thought given to the arcs in the books, and the show just threw all of that away. They kept some basic plot points, but consistently overlooked the depth of character motivation that drove those events.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, lots of themes running through the books, but the show is nihilistic. Nothing is just nothing was their line, and they sure served up a lot of nothing.

Ned was honorable but didn't play the game, but that doesn't mean to stop being honorable, it means to learn to play the game in order to do honorable things. In other words, evolve, to learn how to survive while not giving up your principles. Which is a pretty common theme in drama. Revenge is definitely shown to be not the desirable thing (Ellaria makes that point clear), it's justice, as you say. There was a line on a show last night to that effect - someone's son died and he said the gangs live by revenge, but justice is something different (and unspoken, the loftier goal).

There are also many redemption arcs in the books. Some are for greater wrongs than others, but most characters are trying to make up for something they did or some failure to do something that caused harm to others. Some are very subtle (like Sansa), some are quite dramatic (like Jaime and Sandor, in parallel Beauty and the Beast stories) and some tragic (like Theon). To take the easiest path is not courageous, so there's a lot of gathering up one's courage, and feelings of shame over being less than courageous. This leads to many of the most pivotal moments in the books.

 

I wouldn't call being in the clutches of Littlefinger redemption.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:19 PM, Le Cygne said:

Hey Lady FD, I missed this so thanks for posting. I found it interesting the words he used to express how different it would be (a lot! quite different! further and further away! the living will die and the dead will live!)

What I have noticed more and more of late, however, is my gardening is taking me further and further away from the television series.   Yes, some of the things you saw on HBO in GAME OF THRONES you will also see in THE WINDS OF WINTER (though maybe not in quite the same ways)… but much of the rest will be quite different...

One thing I can say,  in general enough terms that I will not be spoiling anything:  not all of the characters who survived until the end of GAME OF THRONES will survive until the end of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, and not all of the characters who died on GAME OF THRONES will die in A SONG OF ICE & FIRE...

And the ending?   You will need to wait until I get there.   Some things will be the same.   A lot will not.

I expect, like the recent HotD articles coming out, we'll hear even more interesting comments.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.  I'm in and out of here a lot, don't post much because Real Life is a bit crazy and will be for awhile, I think.  

I am going to watch HotD (or try), but I'm sorry, I think Daemon Targaryen should have a bit of sex appeal, and I don't expect I will change my mind on Dr. Who, LOL  

[Angel Eyes]

Another night battle comparison with Winterfell: The Siege of Gondor. In contrast with Winterfell, Minas Tirith shows a pretty clear progression with how the different sides operate.

• The suicidal charge of 200 knights against Osgiliath across open ground where there are lots of Orcs with vantage points for shooting is meant to be idiotic; the point is to show that Denethor's judgment is being clouded by pride, grief and fear and Faramir is desperate enough to attempt such a move. Contrast with running cavalry (and light cavalry at that) into a wall of undead.
• Opening stages at the walls: While the Army of the Dead just overwhelm the forces of the living by steamrolling them (admittedly this works), the Orcs use a variety of tactics, physical and psychological. First they fling the severed heads of the 199 knights at the defenders to demoralize them, then follow that up with a constant catapult bombardment that lasts all day and through the night. Gondorian soldiers counter with their own catapult volley (a soldier mentions they're running out of rubble to use). Nazgul take out a number of the catapults while their shrieks drive many of the defenders to terror. And all the while siege towers inch closer to the vulnerable walls; some are destroyed, but others reach the wall and deploy.
• Assaulting the gate. The Orcs start off with a regular old battering ram, the Gondorian soldiers respond with arrow volleys so fierce that the Orcs with the ram have to climb over their own dead to even reach the gate. So the Orc commander Gothmog sends an even bigger battering ram known as Grond (so named for the hammer used by Sauron's master Morgoth), which breaches the gate. This forces Gandalf to abandon attempts to defend the walls and concentrate on the gate. Trolls enter first as shock troops to soak up arrow volleys and break lines. At that point it becomes a disorganized melee once the rest of Sauron's armies move into the city.
• The forces of the Living at Winterfell don't really do much outside of disorganized arrow fire, a single salvo of trebuchets, and a trench that is eventually crossed. They also had no outposts to see the positions of where the Dead are, which Osgiliath served as.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Another night battle comparison with Winterfell: The Siege of Gondor. In contrast with Winterfell, Minas Tirith shows a pretty clear progression with how the different sides operate.

• The suicidal charge of 200 knights against Osgiliath across open ground where there are lots of Orcs with vantage points for shooting is meant to be idiotic; the point is to show that Denethor's judgment is being clouded by pride, grief and fear and Faramir is desperate enough to attempt such a move. Contrast with running cavalry (and light cavalry at that) into a wall of undead.
• Opening stages at the walls: While the Army of the Dead just overwhelm the forces of the living by steamrolling them (admittedly this works), the Orcs use a variety of tactics, physical and psychological. First they fling the severed heads of the 199 knights at the defenders to demoralize them, then follow that up with a constant catapult bombardment that lasts all day and through the night. Gondorian soldiers counter with their own catapult volley (a soldier mentions they're running out of rubble to use). Nazgul take out a number of the catapults while their shrieks drive many of the defenders to terror. And all the while siege towers inch closer to the vulnerable walls; some are destroyed, but others reach the wall and deploy.
• Assaulting the gate. The Orcs start off with a regular old battering ram, the Gondorian soldiers respond with arrow volleys so fierce that the Orcs with the ram have to climb over their own dead to even reach the gate. So the Orc commander Gothmog sends an even bigger battering ram known as Grond (so named for the hammer used by Sauron's master Morgoth), which breaches the gate. This forces Gandalf to abandon attempts to defend the walls and concentrate on the gate. Trolls enter first as shock troops to soak up arrow volleys and break lines. At that point it becomes a disorganized melee once the rest of Sauron's armies move into the city.
• The forces of the Living at Winterfell don't really do much outside of disorganized arrow fire, a single salvo of trebuchets, and a trench that is eventually crossed. They also had no outposts to see the positions of where the Dead are, which Osgiliath served as.

The Battle for Minas Tirith is fine, until Aragorn brings the green soap bubbles of death to the fight, which makes the efforts of the fighters redundant.

But, prior to that, the tactics of both sides mostly make sense.  The Witch King has brought such a vast army, he has to attack at once.  A prolonged siege would see his soldiers starve.

For some reason, unlike the books, civilians were not evacuated, however.  Likewise, no one thought to send civilians South from Winterfell.