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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!


The Fattest Leech

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16 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Where are you getting that fact about 'the majority dont expect him to finish'?

You really don't intend to read WoW even if it came out this Christmas? forgive me but then why would you even care enough to comment on this website? idk that makes no sense to me.

No, I don't intend to read Winds, I'm not reading about any more dead wolves or dead Starks, I don't need that.  I care enough to comment because I read books 1-5 and loved 1-3, and while I have never loved the show beyond the first year, I liked it very much for the first 4 seasons.  But, mostly I want to know how the story ends.  

If you read comments on various sites, even GRRM twitter, it seems obvious to me that the majority don't expect any book after Winds.  Even the media has finally started writing pieces that state it's unlikely GRRM will finish the series.  

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12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Even before the Show, sales had reached 11 million. That's many more than niche.

It's impressive, but that was over a period of what? 14 years?  It was hardly a giant.  It is now.  Thanks to the show.  Loads of people bought the books because they were desperate to find out what happened next.  Then the show overtook the books so they no longer need to find out what happened next.

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54 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

the vast majority of what people? Unsullied show watchers? I never expected them to read anyway.

90 million ppl worldwide have read/bought asoiaf, when WoW gets published that number will surpass LOTR as the number 1 Adult Fantasy series of all time. (HP is not 'Adult Fantasy') Not exactly what you would call 'niche'.

 

Millions more people will buy WoW than even bought DwD, as the numbers keep increasing from book to book.

What an arrogant response!  Unsullied show watchers dollars not worth as much then?  Here is the truth for you, those nasty Unsullied show watchers make up the vast majority of the audience of the show AND the vast majority of those that went out and bought the books.

TWOW almost certainly will never reach print.  But if it does, I seriously doubt it will outsell ADWD.   I seriously doubt it will get anywhere near.  Popular TV / Books etc. are about a culture, a time and a place.  What is fashionable basically.  By the time TWOW comes out ASOIAF and the show will be long out of fashion.

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No, I don't intend to read Winds, I'm not reading about any more dead wolves or dead Starks, I don't need that.  I care enough to comment because I read books 1-5 and loved 1-3, and while I have never loved the show beyond the first year, I liked it very much for the first 4 seasons.  But, mostly I want to know how the story ends.  

If you read comments on various sites, even GRRM twitter, it seems obvious to me that the majority don't expect any book after Winds.  Even the media has finally started writing pieces that state it's unlikely GRRM will finish the series.  

I'm pretty much with you on the books.  I thought AFFC was considerably better than ADWD.  ADWD for me doesn't even have the same feel as an ASIOAF novel, it simply lacks the quasi-fantasy realism of the first four books and almost all the characters jump the shark and are completely unrealistic in their reactions to events around them.  It substitutes grittiness for silliness, torture porn and shock value.  AFFC was just a buzzkill after ASOS but I don't think it's a completely bad book.  It's just slow and often boring.  Take Dorne and the Ironborn out of it, and it may have been OK.....

I've actually enjoyed the show more since it moved on beyond the books, probably because I don't know what's coming next.  I used to get frustrated a lot more when the show didn't accurately follow parts of the books I loved so much!

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Id guess most who bought the books will buy the next one. Even if the show came first for them. Fans always going to want more content, and the new book,if ever released, will deliver that.  Who cares if you know the ending, the journey is what matters.

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10 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

What an arrogant response!  Unsullied show watchers dollars not worth as much then?  Here is the truth for you, those nasty Unsullied show watchers make up the vast majority of the audience of the show AND the vast majority of those that went out and bought the books.

TWOW almost certainly will never reach print.  But if it does, I seriously doubt it will outsell ADWD.   I seriously doubt it will get anywhere near.  Popular TV / Books etc. are about a culture, a time and a place.  What is fashionable basically.  By the time TWOW comes out ASOIAF and the show will be long out of fashion.

'Unsullied Show watchers' refers to people who watch but do not read. So no, they did not buy the books.:rolleyes:

And everything else you said is far too negative and I completely disagree, why would he publish 11 chapters of a book he will never complete?

And lol to this series going out of fashion. That is a ridiculous statement. LOTR sold 150 million and it came out in 1945-55 long before books were made into TV series. Wheel of Time sold like 85 million and has never been on TV. You're reasoning here is very biased.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn
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59 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

It's impressive, but that was over a period of what? 14 years?  It was hardly a giant.  It is now.  Thanks to the show.  Loads of people bought the books because they were desperate to find out what happened next.  Then the show overtook the books so they no longer need to find out what happened next.

Most authors would give their eye teeth to sell 11 million books (especially on top of a couple of million sales of his earlier science fiction and horror stories).  Without the series, I expect sales would now be in the region of 20 - 25 million. I'd expect TWOW easily to sell 5 million copies in its first year.

But, the show certainly brought tens of millions more sales. 

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

'Unsullied Show watchers' refers to people who watch but do not read. So no, they did not buy the books.:rolleyes:

And everything else you said is far too negative and I completely disagree, why would he publish 11 chapters of a book he will never complete?

And lol to this series going out of fashion. That is a ridiculous statement. LOTR sold 150 million and it came out in 1945-55 long before books were made into TV series. Wheel of Time sold like 85 million and has never been on TV. You're reasoning here is very biased.

LOLOL  Yup.  And, I've been too lazy for the ignore button, I just don't read certain things after a certain point, but damn........I wonder if this season will test my resolve on that ignore button. 

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2 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

'Unsullied Show watchers' refers to people who watch but do not read. So no, they did not buy the books.:rolleyes:

And everything else you said is far too negative and I completely disagree, why would he publish 11 chapters of a book he will never complete?

And lol to this series going out of fashion. That is a ridiculous statement. LOTR sold 150 million and it came out in 1945-55 long before books were made into TV series. Wheel of Time sold like 85 million and has never been on TV. You're reasoning here is very biased.

But the majority of book sales were generated by people who were originally Unsullied :rolleyes:.  They didn't have the patience to wait for the next season, so bought the books to find out what happens next :rolleyes:.  Now they know what happens next in the show so there is no need for them to buy the books :rolleyes:.  There is a reason why ASIOAF sales have fallen off a cliff the last two years.

Your point about TV is exactly what I am trying to convey.  LOTR is a different gravy to ASIOAF and far more enduring.  LOTR is famous for the books.  ASIOAF has been made globally famous because of the TV show.  Different medium all together.  Shows that were massive in the 1980s barely register to the youth of today.  Where as something like LOTR will always endure.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Most authors would give their eye teeth to sell 11 million books (especially on top of a couple of million sales of his earlier science fiction and horror stories).  Without the series, I expect sales would now be in the region of 20 - 25 million. I'd expect TWOW easily to sell 5 million copies in its first year.

But, the show certainly brought tens of millions more sales. 

I never said that ASIOAF was small.  I am a long time reader.  I first read AGOT in 1998.  I have a first edition copy of ASOS that was purchased as a brand new book from a book store.  I have lost count of the amount of people I "pushed" the series on in the early 00s.  Even after AFFC.

I agree that TWOW will likely sell 5 million copies, maybe even in its first year if it is released in the next 12 months.  Had TWOW been published in 2013/14 it would have sold quadruple that in the first year (and even that may be an underestimation).  I'd say every year after the show that TWOW fails to be released, you can knock 1 million off those sales figures.

If S8 isn't well received I dare say you can knock off a lot more than that from book sales.....

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2 hours ago, Bradam said:

Id guess most who bought the books will buy the next one. Even if the show came first for them. Fans always going to want more content, and the new book,if ever released, will deliver that.  Who cares if you know the ending, the journey is what matters.

I'd say you'd guess wrong.  The last book came out in 2011.  People hooked on the TV show were desperate to find out what happened next.  I'll give you an example.  For years I tried to get a mate of mine into ASIOAF and he resisted.  Then the show came around and he loved the first season so much that he went out and bought all the books.  He read them all and (like most of us) then like me had a bit of a downer on the show.  He won't buy TWOW.  The story has almost been told and will have been told in the next few weeks.

This forum is fanatical about the series and is only representative of a very very very tiny proportion of fans.  Most ASIOAF readers never re-read any of the books and yet I'd wager most people who post on this forum have done dozens of re-reads.

As for the journey is what matters.  That depends on the books.  A great journey with a shit end is a journey unlikely to be repeated.  A poor journey with a great end is a journey that people will undertake again because the juice is worth the squeeze.  Ultimately it is subjective, but most people are casual readers and watchers and they want closure and a satisfying conclusion beyond everything else.  Sure the ride has to be good too, but they're only interested in riding it once.

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34 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I never said that ASIOAF was small.  I am a long time reader.  I first read AGOT in 1998.  I have a first edition copy of ASOS that was purchased as a brand new book from a book store.  I have lost count of the amount of people I "pushed" the series on in the early 00s.  Even after AFFC.

I agree that TWOW will likely sell 5 million copies, maybe even in its first year if it is released in the next 12 months.  Had TWOW been published in 2013/14 it would have sold quadruple that in the first year (and even that may be an underestimation).  I'd say every year after the show that TWOW fails to be released, you can knock 1 million off those sales figures.

If S8 isn't well received I dare say you can knock off a lot more than that from book sales.....

I agree.  A badly received end is going to harm the book sales, and the longer he waits after the show wraps the more I think it harms books sales because once GOT is over, then it's over, especially, if, as it looks, they are going to kill off a good portion of the most popular characters. 

If some combination of Jon, Arya, Dany and Tyrion are all dead at the end of the show, that will significantly change the ROI on reading more of the story, and that goes for show watchers and readers, too.  I'm sure Winds will still be a 'best-seller' but it had the potential to be a massive, ridiculously insane level seller and that, IMO, opportunity is gone. It's also possible that Winds, having taken 8 or 9 or more years, having potentially undergone major rewrites, will be even weaker than Dance and Feast were.

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I do have sympathy for D&D being left in the lurch by GRRM,

I have none. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. First, because I don’t know what was the deal struck by Martin and the Ds, so I can’t really say Martin has left them in the lurch.

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

but they knew about this possibility going in.

Exactly. The deal was made when only 4 out of possibly 7 books had been published. So, what happens if either before or after Dance Martin decides he’s done w/ writing the story? What would the Ds do then? 

And second point, even if they were left hanging by Martin, that doesn’t excuse their utter inability to write a coherent and interesting story. That’s the core of the problem, the Ds are terrible, terrible writers. Maybe they should have hired actual writers and remained as show runners, instead of trying to do it all. But they didn’t, and that’s on them IMO. I know hindsight is 20/20, but looking at older series, the writing is on the wall (Wall?), even from s01. 

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It’s funny how people who can’t handle reading comprehension prefer the awesomeness of other mediums that require just sitting and being spoonfed instead. 

It's even funnier how snobbish people can be towards what is ultimately a subjective topic.

Everyone discussing on this thread will have read the books several times and I dare say a lot of the cynics have a much more rounded view on the books/show than fans who think the books/shows are perfect.  The funny thing is, I've never come across anyone who reads the books and watches the shows who thinks the show is NOT flawed.  And yet I've engaged with loads of book readers who hate the show, who simply refute any criticism of the books in any shape or form.  That's because their reading comprehension sucks and they are blinded by bias.

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I'm trying to see if there's any new preseason hype out on the interwebs before I have to go live RL, so far, I'm not doing terribly well at finding any, but..........

This article is talking about a cute drawing of Where's Walder?  I haven't found the entire article, just the picture, but if I don't find Jaqen, I'm going to be pissed.  That goes double for if I DO FIND HIM, and he's wearing The Robe of Despair.  I am still a bit hopeful him turning up in Croatia meant something, but.......please, no more of that Robe!!  Anyway, the drawing is cute and promises many other characters to be found in it. 

https://winteriscoming.net/2019/03/15/where-walder-frey-game-of-thrones-infographics-betrayals-season-8/

 

https://i.redd.it/tiu63hrcqql21.jpg

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream
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35 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm trying to see if there's any new preseason hype out on the interwebs before I have to go live RL, so far, I'm not doing terribly well at finding any, but..........

This article is talking about a cute drawing of Where's Walder?  I haven't found the entire article, just the picture, but if I don't find Jaqen, I'm going to be pissed.  That goes double for if I DO FIND HIM, and he's wearing The Robe of Despair.  I am still a bit hopeful him turning up in Croatia meant something, but.......please, no more of that Robe!!  Anyway, the drawing is cute and promises many other characters to be found in it. 

https://winteriscoming.net/2019/03/15/where-walder-frey-game-of-thrones-infographics-betrayals-season-8/

 

https://i.redd.it/tiu63hrcqql21.jpg

Wow. That infographic showing betrayals is a perfect example of just how non-linear this story is. And no, I haven’t seen any Jaqen sightings either ^_^

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Interesting you assumed I was talking about the books. 

 

So if you weren't taking about the books and people's reading comprehension in direct relation to being spoonfed by other mediums (which I assume is TV) then what were you talking about?

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20 hours ago, SeanF said:

I would add the Reek and Cersei storylines, Bran & Co. North of the Wall, the Vale, and Meereen, from the return of Drogon onwards, as parts that stood out for me.  Some parts were less gripping, it's true.

The 1st 3 books are one story. The petty fight for the IT. The Lannisters won, the others lost. This story is done. And best forgotten. Too many errors. But it was hiding the true war. The one for life and mankind's survival. And this is a much wider, complex, story. Maybe Dance has some flaws, I didn't like so many "words are wind". Maybe there is some message. Anyway the story is much more interesting IMO. And I love love Davos and the Manderlys in this book. The North remembers.

And whatever happens in the TV show, I will wait the books.

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