Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
GoT_Academy

It seems that Aegon Targaryen was actually a MORON

Recommended Posts

 know the official story is that Aegon Targaryen was perfect - beat his enemies, united the realm, created the 7 kingdoms. But what we don't read in any of the history books about Aegon is about his faults. And there's one GLARING fault that is monumental - he failed to groom his heirs, get them ready and get the kingdom ready for the day after. That's pretty moronic, it's hard to find the words to explain how much.
 
Aenys is so clueless when he steps into the role of king, that it's laughable and absurd. He doesn't understand his lords, the Faith, the common folk, he trusts everybody. I think this casts a new light on Aegon, and I think it's a deliberate jab by GRRM when he says that when Aegon dies he was in the middle of telling his grandkids about his conquests. To show his vanity, and the nonsense he was immersing himself in instead of doing what proper kings do, which is divide power and influence among his two sons, while he's alive, making sure they're getting along and know their roles, prepare them for the challenges ahead, etc. I mean, this is really basic stuff. Aenys gives too much to too many people, and you only need rudimentary knowledge about people to understand that it's not effective. And Maegor thinks that fear is all he needs. There's actually some Machiavelli in that (and GRRM is a Machiavelli fan), when he talked about fearing and/or loving the ruler. That you need a combination of those, that if your lords just love you but don't fear you, they'll seize on that weakness. And if they just fear you, they'll end up loathing you, and that's bad for you too. But that's another topic.
 
My point is that Aegon was far less awesome than the history that was written about him while he was alive would have us believe. I mean, really, every parent prepares their child/ren for the basic challenges of life, and if you leave your kids your family business, you teach them how to run it. And a king has a responsibility to do it for the realm. Well, unless all he wants to do is watch his highlight reels and tell the story of The Field of Fire to his grandkids for the hundredth time.
 
I elaborate on that in this video (trigger alert for people who don't understand hyperbole) > https://youtu.be/LNpn4cniiwM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really?  I always thought that Aegon was a foreign invader, a practitioner of "might-makes-right", who burned his enemies alive by the thousands, and who practiced both bigamy and incest, with both his full-sisters. 

Why would a person this evil care what happens after he dies?  

Sure, his successors, Aenys and Maegor, were not as talented.  But what evidence do you have that this was poor grooming?  Might not the fact that they were products of full-sibling incest have something to do with their lack of talent and other faults?.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing is that queen Visenya outlived her brother and I suspect that she actually "micromanaged" more than Aegon even he was still around. So it is possible that incompetence of next kings was actually her fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is pretty much a non-argument. Children are the way they are. Parents have a certain influence on them but they cannot change their personality. Aenys was groomed to rule, he just failed. And Maegor was not groomed to rule because nobody but Visenya ever wanted him to rule.

The proper way to ensure the Targaryen legacy would have been to leave orders to the Kingsguard to actually kill both Visenya and Maegor upon Aegon's own death to ensure that neither of them meddles with Aenys' reign or tries to usurp the place of Aegon's grandsons. But that would have been rather extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is pretty much a non-argument. Children are the way they are. Parents have a certain influence on them but they cannot change their personality. Aenys was groomed to rule, he just failed. And Maegor was not groomed to rule because nobody but Visenya ever wanted him to rule.

Parents play a huge role in a child's personality.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The proper way to ensure the Targaryen legacy would have been to leave orders to the Kingsguard to actually kill both Visenya and Maegor upon Aegon's own death to ensure that neither of them meddles with Aenys' reign or tries to usurp the place of Aegon's grandsons. But that would have been rather extreme.

Uh yeah. No one would have done that. Good luck trying to kill Maegor normally, let alone after he bonded Balerion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Parents play a huge role in a child's personality.

That depends. We are talking royalty here. They usually don't spend much time with their children. Chances are very high that Aegon only started to spend some time with Aenys after the Dornish War was over and then the boy was already six years old. Perhaps he did this only later. Fathers in a royal/noble environment usually only take charge of the education of their children in hand when they are old enough to be understand what they intend to teach them - i.e. around ten or so. 

There were doting parents among the Targaryens - Viserys I and Rhaenyra spring to mind - but those are exceptions. Even Jaehaerys I wasn't exactly famed for spending much time with his sons. We have no reason to believe that Jaehaerys' great qualities as a father greatly contributed to Aemon and Baelon becoming great guys - nor is he to be blamed that Vaegon turned out the way he turned out.

The people influencing/shaping the personalities of those young princes and princesses would be their wetnurses, tutors, maesters, servants, companions - and also their mothers. Because there is ample evidence that various royal mothers did spend much time with their children. But Aenys lost his mother and Aegon clearly wasn't able to actually be a proper single parent. Visenya never was a mother to Aenys, apparently, so the boy would have been brought up by various ladies at court while Aegon ruled and traveled his Realm. We see how younger children are treated when matters of state call for a progress (e.g. Jaehaerys and Alysanne staying on Dragonstone while their royal parents first travel to KL and then to Oldtown for Aenys' coronation).

How close Aegon and his sons were on an emotional level is completely unclear.

But it is quite sure that Aegon did not exactly instill this uncertainty in Aenys, just as he would have nothing to do with Maegor's sadistic tendencies. He may have been able to make it clear to Maegor that he had to behave - but once Maegor had stolen his father's throne daddy was long ashes, and nobody could Maegor tell what not to do. Not even his mommy. Vice versa, if Aenys really wanted to be nice to the people around him then such a thing is not exactly going to go away because the father said 'Don't behave in such a fashion'. It seems likely that Aegon tried to mold Aenys into the kind of man he was - and failed. Just as he failed with Maegor.

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Uh yeah. No one would have done that. Good luck trying to kill Maegor normally, let alone after he bonded Balerion. 

If the Iron Throne could do it, it couldn't have been that hard. A dragon doesn't protect you against assassins, and the Kingsguard were likely still better fighters than the great Maegor - Jaehaerys I who is considered to be a greater fighter than Maegor still wasn't as deadly as his Kingsguard (granted, Jaehaerys' first Seven apparently were the greatest Kingsguard ever, so the comparison is perhaps somewhat off).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That depends. We are talking royalty here. They usually don't spend much time with their children. Chances are very high that Aegon only started to spend some time with Aenys after the Dornish War was over and then the boy was already six years old. Perhaps he did this only later. Fathers in a royal/noble environment usually only take charge of the education of their children in hand when they are old enough to be understand what they intend to teach them - i.e. around ten or so. 

There were doting parents among the Targaryens - Viserys I and Rhaenyra spring to mind - but those are exceptions. Even Jaehaerys I wasn't exactly famed for spending much time with his sons. We have no reason to believe that Jaehaerys' great qualities as a father greatly contributed to Aemon and Baelon becoming great guys - nor is he to be blamed that Vaegon turned out the way he turned out.

The people influencing/shaping the personalities of those young princes and princesses would be their wetnurses, tutors, maesters, servants, companions - and also their mothers. Because there is ample evidence that various royal mothers did spend much time with their children. But Aenys lost his mother and Aegon clearly wasn't able to actually be a proper single parent. Visenya never was a mother to Aenys, apparently, so the boy would have been brought up by various ladies at court while Aegon ruled and traveled his Realm. We see how younger children are treated when matters of state call for a progress (e.g. Jaehaerys and Alysanne staying on Dragonstone while their royal parents first travel to KL and then to Oldtown for Aenys' coronation).

How close Aegon and his sons were on an emotional level is completely unclear.

But it is quite sure that Aegon did not exactly instill this uncertainty in Aenys, just as he would have nothing to do with Maegor's sadistic tendencies. He may have been able to make it clear to Maegor that he had to behave - but once Maegor had stolen his father's throne daddy was long ashes, and nobody could Maegor tell what not to do. Not even his mommy. Vice versa, if Aenys really wanted to be nice to the people around him then such a thing is not exactly going to go away because the father said 'Don't behave in such a fashion'. It seems likely that Aegon tried to mold Aenys into the kind of man he was - and failed. Just as he failed with Maegor.

If the Iron Throne could do it, it couldn't have been that hard. A dragon doesn't protect you against assassins, and the Kingsguard were likely still better fighters than the great Maegor - Jaehaerys I who is considered to be a greater fighter than Maegor still wasn't as deadly as his Kingsguard (granted, Jaehaerys' first Seven apparently were the greatest Kingsguard ever, so the comparison is perhaps somewhat off).

Who considered Jaehaerys a greater warrior than Maegor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who considered Jaehaerys a greater warrior than Maegor?

Ser Elyas Scales, the master-at-arms on Dragonstone who trained Jaehaerys at arms alongside Jaehaerys' Kingsguard:

Quote

Jaehaerys was oft brusied and bloody by evening, to Alysanne’s distress, but his prowess improved so markedly that near the end of his time on Dragonstone, old Ser Elyas himself told him, “Your Grace, you will never be a Kingsguard, but if by some sorcery your uncle Maegor himself were to rise from the grave, my coin would be on you.

A greater compliment is hardly imaginable, especially if we keep in mind that Maegor must have the reputation of a really great warrior.

Ser Elyas is also not just some guy - he is pretty old already, meaning he would have had ample time to spar with/see Maegor train at arms back during his days as Prince of Dragonstone.

And we later see Jaehaerys prove his strength at arms both when dispatches Borys Baratheon and the Stinger - the latter happening when he was approaching fifty, and his nineteen-year-old opponent being called the finest lance in the Reach, meaning the man would also have been a pretty good fighter.

The way it stands Jaehaerys I seems to be among the greatest Targaryen fighters of all time, perhaps being the equal of the Dragonknight and Daemon Blackfyre - who both I think may have been better than Maegor, too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ser Elyas Scales, the master-at-arms on Dragonstone who trained Jaehaerys at arms alongside Jaehaerys' Kingsguard:

A greater compliment is hardly imaginable, especially if we keep in mind that Maegor must have the reputation of a really great warrior.

Ser Elyas is also not just some guy - he is pretty old already, meaning he would have had ample time to spar with/see Maegor train at arms back during his days as Prince of Dragonstone.

And we later see Jaehaerys prove his strength at arms both when dispatches Borys Baratheon and the Stinger - the latter happening when he was approaching fifty, and his nineteen-year-old opponent being called the finest lance in the Reach, meaning the man would also have been a pretty good fighter.

The way it stands Jaehaerys I seems to be among the greatest Targaryen fighters of all time, perhaps being the equal of the Dragonknight and Daemon Blackfyre - who both I think may have been better than Maegor, too. 

Seems he was right there with Aegon, Maegor and Visenya didn't think he would get to be so skilled. But to be fair training with those KG for two years everyday would greatly improve a competent fighter 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

Seems he was right there with Aegon, Maegor and Visenya didn't think he would get to be so skilled. But to be fair training with those KG for two years everyday would greatly improve a competent fighter 

Not sure Aegon was that great a fighter. He never shows any great feats of arms nor do we get such high praise for Aegon. Visenya may have been better than Aegon considering how she basically did Kingsguard duty for Aegon before there was a KG. Maegor seems to have been among the great ones, but my personal guess is that Jaehaerys, the Dragonknight, and Daemon Blackfyre are among the greatest, with Baelor Breakspear and Prince Daemon close behind.

Not sure how great Bloodraven, Bittersteel, Maekar, Aerion, Aegon V, Duncan the Small, Prince Daeron, and Rhaegar truly were. Will have to need more information on that.

But what we have on Jaehaerys I, the Dragonknight, and Daemon Blackfyre paints them truly as exceptional warriors. I think especially the Dragonknight must have been the kind of man that's only born once a century or a millennium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure Aegon was that great a fighter. He never shows any great feats of arms nor do we get such high praise for Aegon. Visenya may have been better than Aegon considering how she basically did Kingsguard duty for Aegon before there was a KG. Maegor seems to have been among the great ones, but my personal guess is that Jaehaerys, the Dragonknight, and Daemon Blackfyre are among the greatest, with Baelor Breakspear and Prince Daemon close behind.

Not sure how great Bloodraven, Bittersteel, Maekar, Aerion, Aegon V, Duncan the Small, Prince Daeron, and Rhaegar truly were. Will have to need more information on that.

But what we have on Jaehaerys I, the Dragonknight, and Daemon Blackfyre paints them truly as exceptional warriors. I think especially the Dragonknight must have been the kind of man that's only born once a century or a millennium.

Fire and Blood describes him as one of the great ones of his age that's good enough for me especially since men like Argalic were there at that time.  But i get what your saying no one in universe but the maesters and historians list him as such. The other they can be up there as well just that everyone has their day no matter how good they are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me Jaehaerys I is Aegon's better in just about every way. Better sword fighter, better general, beat the Dornish when they fought, built roads and forever secured the Targaryen's right to marry their sisters by handling the Faith. His two eldest sons both loved each other. His daughters...well Aegon I had no daughters so that need not be discussed or brought into comparison. Though Jaehaerys was gifted with Good Queen Alysanne as a wife. He was smart enough to listen to her and to marry her despite everyone trying to stop him, a weaker young king to be might have caved. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×