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Lady Rhodes

Arthur Dayne?

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I had youtube videos playing last night and one came up discussing the possibility that Arthur Dayne could still be alive.  I googled it and apparently, this theory has been out there for a time.  Has it been discussed here? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, but it is not something that I have ever heard of before and I would be interested to hear the supposed evidence for this.  Is there a thread floating around somewhere? Thanks.

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I had youtube videos playing last night and one came up discussing the possibility that Arthur Dayne could still be alive.  I googled it and apparently, this theory has been out there for a time.  Has it been discussed here? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, but it is not something that I have ever heard of before and I would be interested to hear the supposed evidence for this.  Is there a thread floating around somewhere? Thanks.

I imagine it has been discussed here at some point, but not recently so I doubt you'll be able to comment on any of the threads anymore. I've read a few, most of them go over how he was Qhorin Halfhand. I personally don't believe any of them myself, I think the only reason for Arthur Dayne to be alive would be to tell us what happened at the Tower of Joy, and we have Howland Reed for that. 

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29 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I imagine it has been discussed here at some point, but not recently so I doubt you'll be able to comment on any of the threads anymore. I've read a few, most of them go over how he was Qhorin Halfhand. I personally don't believe any of them myself, I think the only reason for Arthur Dayne to be alive would be to tell us what happened at the Tower of Joy, and we have Howland Reed for that. 

I read a Qhorin theory on it on reddit.  I am not sure I subscribe to that notion either, but a few thoughts did intrigue me (not saying that they mean anything, but they did pique my interest).
There is a heavy importance throughout the texts of returning bones to kin and we know from Barbery Dustin that this did not occur, though Ned brought Lyanna home.  The suggestion was that if not everyone died, he couldn't return, say, 7 bodies, and neglect to return the 8th (Arthur Dayne's), so it was an all or nothing game - either all bodies get returned or no bodies get returned. 

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You will find a handful of posts if you google "Arthur Dayne alive". Arthur seems like a really great guy and a very intriguing character so it's understandable that many readers want to see more of him. I personally don't think that there's more to the theories but wishful thinking. 

The text explicitly states that Arthur perished at the ToJ with his fellow Kingsguard and five of Ned's men. If some of them are alive, some elaborate conspiracy scheme had to have been engineered by Ned at ToJ (or at least that he agreed on it), which is exactly the opposite of Ned's modus operandi and something he wholeheartedly despises, so I'd say quite unlikely. If anyone survived, it would also take away a bit from the tragedy of Robert's rebellion and Ned's traumatic memory of the ToJ. 

Mance Rayder and Qhorin Halfhand are the most often cited "Arthurs in disguise".  No idea why as all that they have in common with Arthur is that they are good fighters. As if it wasn't the single most desirable skill for men from any culture in Westeros and thus fairly common among those who achieved some fame and/or success. We don't even know if Mance or Qhorin are anywhere near the level of Dayne or just good by Night's watch standards.

There's nothing to indicate that Arthur was ever interested in anything happening on or beyond the Wall or that he has even ever been north of the Neck. Mance's history is well-known as he grew up at Castle Black, so he'd be a hard one to impersonate. Qhorin just make no sense if not for nothing else, that because he died few chapters after he was introduced. What would be the point to find out several books later that he was Arthur?

Arthur would have as much luck at faking a secret identity as Jaime Lannister (or maybe even Rhaegar). Imaging Jaime faking his death and joining the Watch pretending to be a commoner. Even people who've never met him or heard of him would be wondering why does he look, talk and behave like a noble and where the hell did he learn all these cool sword tricks. Not to mention that the Wall after the Rebellion was probably full of people who were close to the court and thus knew Arthur. 

There's also a theory that Arthur is hiding with Howland Reed in Greywater Watch because ...? Frankly, I think he would be significantly less cool, if we found out that he's been ~16 years living in a swamp doing nothing . 

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I read a Qhorin theory on it on reddit.  I am not sure I subscribe to that notion either, but a few thoughts did intrigue me (not saying that they mean anything, but they did pique my interest).
There is a heavy importance throughout the texts of returning bones to kin and we know from Barbery Dustin that this did not occur, though Ned brought Lyanna home.  The suggestion was that if not everyone died, he couldn't return, say, 7 bodies, and neglect to return the 8th (Arthur Dayne's), so it was an all or nothing game - either all bodies get returned or no bodies get returned. 

Ned only travelled with Howland, an infant and possibly a wet nurse when he left ToJ. They may have been wounded and had a good chunk of inhospitable country to cross . They couldn't take eight bodies with them and thus only took Lyanna's and buried the others. 

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23 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Ned only travelled with Howland, an infant and possibly a wet nurse when he left ToJ. They may have been wounded and had a good chunk of inhospitable country to cross . They couldn't take eight bodies with them and thus only took Lyanna's and buried the others. 

Oh, you are completely correct. I don't doubt at all what you are saying, nor does anyone in the Seven Kingdoms as the record clearly shows! All I meant was that it piqued me interested, and it is brought up quite a bit, including recently in Dance.

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7 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh, you are completely correct. I don't doubt at all what you are saying, nor does anyone in the Seven Kingdoms as the record clearly shows! All I meant was that it piqued me interested, and it is brought up quite a bit, including recently in Dance.

Ned fulfilled his obligation by giving the fallen a proper funeral and informing their kin. If Barbrey really wanted her husband's remains to be taken home, she could have asked Ned. I doubt that he would refuse her. He'd either send a retinue to retrieve Lord Dustin's bones from Dorne (maybe even go himself) or give her the means to send her own men. Unless, it's some sort of a sacrilege to remove once buried body and move it. No idea.

I am sure that Ned didn't mind that nobody was going through the remains of the Tower of Joy and making their own deduction as to what happened there but he would not lie if the relatives of the fallen wanted to know the exact location. 

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33 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Ned fulfilled his obligation by giving the fallen a proper funeral and informing their kin. If Barbrey really wanted her husband's remains to be taken home, she could have asked Ned. I doubt that he would refuse her. He'd either send a retinue to retrieve Lord Dustin's bones from Dorne (maybe even go himself) or give her the means to send her own men. Unless, it's some sort of a sacrilege to remove once buried body and move it. No idea.

I am sure that Ned didn't mind that nobody was going through the remains of the Tower of Joy and making their own deduction as to what happened there but he would not lie if the relatives of the fallen wanted to know the exact location. 

Again, I am not disagreeing with you.  Barbery seems pretty pissy though about the whole thing, and who knows how prickly she has been to deal with the last fourteen years.  It is implied that Ned did not arrange a new marriage for her for this reason.  I think if it could have been rectified by getting Dustin's bones and returning him, he would have done it to save himself a headache.

 I just thought it was an interesting thought, regardless.

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12 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Again, I am not disagreeing with you.  Barbery seems pretty pissy though about the whole thing, and who knows how prickly she has been to deal with the last fourteen years.  It is implied that Ned did not arrange a new marriage for her for this reason.  I think if it could have been rectified by getting Dustin's bones and returning him, he would have done it to save himself a headache.

 I just thought it was an interesting thought, regardless.

I agree as well. I wonder if there is more to it or George simply introduced Barbrey and her outrage to remind readers about the Tower of Joy and that we should be wondering what happened there and why. 

I don't know much about the succession laws but shouldn't Barbrey be quite happy that she got to keep he husbands keep and lands and that it didn't go to some Dustin male relative instead?

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Just now, Hangover of the Morning said:

but shouldn't Barbrey be quite happy

You'd think!

1 minute ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

I wonder if there is more to it or George simply introduced Barbrey and her outrage to remind readers about the Tower of Joy and that we should be wondering what happened there and why. 

I know we are not alone in this, but there is a lot more to the Tower of Joy, even taking into account R+L=J.  Even if we assume that is true, that is not the end of what went down there. I've read things that range from fairly bland (I would count this Arthur Dayne thing as bland) to sinister (the Tower of Joy was a sacrificial pyre that was going to burn Lyanna and/or baby Jon alive to birth a dragon)

Perhaps that would be an interesting thread in and of itself - how many weird ToJ theories are there?

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8 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I imagine it has been discussed here at some point, but not recently so I doubt you'll be able to comment on any of the threads anymore. I've read a few, most of them go over how he was Qhorin Halfhand. I personally don't believe any of them myself, I think the only reason for Arthur Dayne to be alive would be to tell us what happened at the Tower of Joy, and we have Howland Reed for that. 

Arthur would probably be the only one who can give us insight into rhaegar's pov and what he thought. Besides what him and lyanna were doing for several months?

Howland can tell us that jon is rhaegar's son and little else… Unless we have some kind of diary very well kept.

On the other hand if arthur were alive he wouldn t spend all this time doing nothing… westeros went through hell, jon joined the NW, viserys died and dany birthed dragons. Why would arthur do nothing through all these events?

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30 minutes ago, divica said:

Arthur would probably be the only one who can give us insight into rhaegar's pov and what he thought. Besides what him and lyanna were doing for several months?

Howland can tell us that jon is rhaegar's son and little else… Unless we have some kind of diary very well kept.

On the other hand if arthur were alive he wouldn t spend all this time doing nothing… westeros went through hell, jon joined the NW, viserys died and dany birthed dragons. Why would arthur do nothing through all these events?

Personally I don't feel like we need any sort of deep insight into Rhaegar's mind, the few random facts that Barristan can tell us about him is enough for me. 

Yeah, if Arthur did survive I doubt he would've even let Ned take Jon, let alone send him to the Night's Watch. 

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11 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I had youtube videos playing last night and one came up discussing the possibility that Arthur Dayne could still be alive.  I googled it and apparently, this theory has been out there for a time.  Has it been discussed here? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, but it is not something that I have ever heard of before and I would be interested to hear the supposed evidence for this.  Is there a thread floating around somewhere? Thanks.

I can't recall who made that popular.  It sounds like Order of the Green Hand.  

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7 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Personally I don't feel like we need any sort of deep insight into Rhaegar's mind, the few random facts that Barristan can tell us about him is enough for me. 

Yeah, if Arthur did survive I doubt he would've even let Ned take Jon, let alone send him to the Night's Watch. 

Given that arthur was at least injured and that from a military pov the targs at dragonstone might be doomed it makes sense to have ned assume the child for a couple years at least. Its not like arthur had the means or skills to raise a baby prince without anyone finding out.

However it is obvious arthur wouldn t let jon join the watch or would at least make an appearance at some point of jon's life.

I think we need to understand what is the song of ice and fire (the one rhaegar mentions) what he and lyanna did for months and what made rhaegar believe he or Aegon were the prince that was promised. These things seem crucial that I can t believe we will never know about them...

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7 hours ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

 

The text explicitly states that Arthur perished at the ToJ with his fellow Kingsguard and five of Ned's men. If some of them are alive, some elaborate conspiracy scheme had to have been engineered by Ned at ToJ (or at least that he agreed on it), which is exactly the opposite of Ned's modus operandi and something he wholeheartedly despises, so I'd say quite unlikely. If anyone survived, it would also take away a bit from the tragedy of Robert's rebellion and Ned's traumatic memory of the ToJ. 

This is nearly all of the content on say, a web forum dedicated to a book series that has not seen a new volume in almost 8 years 

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Thanks all for explaining the gist of it. As I said, it had never crossed my mind and wasn’t sure what the tenets of the theory were, so to speak. The part I did not like most was the Qhorib half hand but - it would be so pointless.

everyone who has posted (and those who haven’t!) what are your theories regarding ToJ?

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Has your theory a way around 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. ?

Besides Arthur walked away or buried himself out of a cairn.

13 hours ago, divica said:

Arthur would probably be the only one who can give us insight into rhaegar's pov and what he thought. Besides what him and lyanna were doing for several months?

Never forget Darry or Connington, just because the series ignores them, doesn't mean they aren't there. 

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30 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Has your theory a way around 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. ?

Besides Arthur walked away or buried himself out of a cairn.

Never forget Darry or Connington, just because the series ignores them, doesn't mean they aren't there. 

Haha, I wouldn't necessarily call this my theory.  I brought up an old theory that was new to me, basically the used car of theories! Anyway, I appreciate the text citation, helps provide better context.

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18 hours ago, divica said:

. . . if arthur were alive he wouldn t spend all this time doing nothing… westeros went through hell, jon joined the NW, viserys died and dany birthed dragons. Why would arthur do nothing through all these events?

 

17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

everyone who has posted (and those who haven’t!) what are your theories regarding ToJ?

 

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Never forget Darry or Connington, just because the series ignores them, doesn't mean they aren't there. 

If you're inviting crackpot, my theory is that Ser Arthur Dayne assumed the identity of Ser Jonothor Darry. (Or maybe he was one of the four loyal men who accompanied Darry.) He smuggled Viserys and Daenerys to Braavos. There he eventually took on a new identity . . . Illyrio Mopatis. 

Edited by Seams

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6 minutes ago, Seams said:

If you're inviting crackpot, my theory is that Ser Arthur Dayne assumed the identity of Ser Jonothor Darry (or maybe he was one of the four loyal men who accompanied Darry. He smuggled Viserys and Daenerys to Braavos. There he eventually took on a new identity . . . Illyrio Mopatis. 

Oh i fucked this one up royally. I meant Whent. Darry was guarding Aerys. I guess that's what you get when you discuss Darry all day in another part of the forum. :(

Edited by SirArthur

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