Arthur Dayne?

[Lady Rhodes]

@Seams Crack pot and tin foil usually have a little grain of intrigue in there that does warrant thought, so I welcome them and I welcome disagreement in equal measure.

If I am understanding you correctly, are you suggesting that one of the people that smuggled Viserys and Dany was Arthur Dayne in disguise?

Something that I have mulled in my thoughts is whether Rhaella was ever on Dragonstone.  I have wondered if it was a feint thing and that she and Viserys were elsewhere - more pointedly, in Dorne with Lyanna.  I don't have anything textual to support this notion, beyond Lemongate that suggests that the house with the Red Door was in Dorne and not Braavos. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Can fever dreams be trusted? 

[Lady Rhodes]

@Legitimate_Bastard My guess is that they are distortions of reality - past, present, and possibly future. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Just now, Lady Rhodes said:

@Legitimate_Bastard My guess is that they are distortions of reality - past, present, and possibly future. 

Hear, hear. Distortion is the key word. I take fever dream evidence with a grain of salt. Overall I accept the info as truth, but I leave room in my mind for future alteration. I could see something like an omission of a key fact or a character misinterpreting something being used by GRRM to squeeze more from a past scene.

 

From westeros.org

Quote

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

Cheers, I really hope you will answer these questions for me, I'll not bother you again if you do, I promise hahaha.

Merry Christmas btw, it's almost on us!

And a happy new year to you.

GRRM is a tricky bugger..... why else would he say that if something weren't amiss? 

[Lady Rhodes]

@Legitimate_Bastard  After rereading the text, a key thing comes to my mind - Ned did not know where the missing kingsguard knights were and presumably Lyanna as well. He repeatedly says that he thought he would see them on the Trident, then he thought that he would find them in King's Landing, and then again at Storm's End.  Notably, Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell never say that they were at ToJ for a long time.  At one point, they even say "we were away"

This makes me wonder if ToJ was not the initial holding place for Lyanna. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This makes me wonder if ToJ was not the initial holding place for Lyanna. 

I personally don't believe Lyanna & Co were at the ToJ the whole time. And I believe that even more after reading Jon Connington's thoughts about Arthur Dayne when walking through the Golden Company camp and Barristan's thoughts about what Gerold Hightower would have thought of him leading his men out of Meereen to fight, it sort of boggles the mind that they would have stayed at the ToJ knowing everything they knew about the war. It doesn't make sense for them to stay there knowing all that they know and knowing it's only a matter of time before they are hunted down.

For my money, I don't think anyone lived there for any extended period of time, with Rhaegar or without him. I think the group was traveling into Dorne down the Prince's Pass to make their way to Starfall (possibly) and get out of Westeros from there (likely with the assistance of the Hightowers) when she went into labor and they took her to the tower because it was the closest shelter to where they were. I don't think they would have been there if they hadn't been forced to be there.

[SirArthur]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

to make their way to Starfall and get out of Westeros from there

"the Kingsguard does not flee". This was the entire point of the conversation. That is the reason why they did not (either all or at least one) go with Queen Rhaella. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

49 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Legitimate_Bastard  After rereading the text, a key thing comes to my mind - Ned did not know where the missing kingsguard knights were and presumably Lyanna as well. He repeatedly says that he thought he would see them on the Trident, then he thought that he would find them in King's Landing, and then again at Storm's End.  Notably, Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell never say that they were at ToJ for a long time.  At one point, they even say "we were away"

This makes me wonder if ToJ was not the initial holding place for Lyanna. 

Something tells me we are going to all have our minds blown when Winds arrives.

[SirArthur]

6 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Something tells me we are going to all have our minds blown when Winds arrives.

something tells me this is old stuff

[Legitimate_Bastard]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

something tells me this is old stuff

Maybe for you. Not for everyone!!  

[SirArthur]

21 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Maybe for you. Not for everyone!!  

I'm a noob around here, maybe the "all" is not as all as you think. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

1 minute ago, SirArthur said:

I'm a noob around here, maybe the "all" is not as all as you think. 

Forgive me for talking back to an anointed noob. 

[divica]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Never forget Darry or Connington, just because the series ignores them, doesn't mean they aren't there. 

Darry? which darry is alive and would be privy to rhaegar's plans and thoghts?

I admit that jon com might know things. And his exile is a good excuse for him to not be involved in the latter part of the rebelion. However, if he was exiled how much can he know about rhaegar, lyanna and jon snow? And about what rhaegar and lyanna were doing during the first months of the rebelion?

[Nightranger58]

On 12/13/2018 at 10:28 AM, Hangover of the Morning said:

You will find a handful of posts if you google "Arthur Dayne alive". Arthur seems like a really great guy and a very intriguing character so it's understandable that many readers want to see more of him. I personally don't think that there's more to the theories but wishful thinking. 

The text explicitly states that Arthur perished at the ToJ with his fellow Kingsguard and five of Ned's men. If some of them are alive, some elaborate conspiracy scheme had to have been engineered by Ned at ToJ (or at least that he agreed on it), which is exactly the opposite of Ned's modus operandi and something he wholeheartedly despises, so I'd say quite unlikely. If anyone survived, it would also take away a bit from the tragedy of Robert's rebellion and Ned's traumatic memory of the ToJ. 

Mance Rayder and Qhorin Halfhand are the most often cited "Arthurs in disguise".  No idea why as all that they have in common with Arthur is that they are good fighters. As if it wasn't the single most desirable skill for men from any culture in Westeros and thus fairly common among those who achieved some fame and/or success. We don't even know if Mance or Qhorin are anywhere near the level of Dayne or just good by Night's watch standards.

There's nothing to indicate that Arthur was ever interested in anything happening on or beyond the Wall or that he has even ever been north of the Neck. Mance's history is well-known as he grew up at Castle Black, so he'd be a hard one to impersonate. Qhorin just make no sense if not for nothing else, that because he died few chapters after he was introduced. What would be the point to find out several books later that he was Arthur?

Arthur would have as much luck at faking a secret identity as Jaime Lannister (or maybe even Rhaegar). Imaging Jaime faking his death and joining the Watch pretending to be a commoner. Even people who've never met him or heard of him would be wondering why does he look, talk and behave like a noble and where the hell did he learn all these cool sword tricks. Not to mention that the Wall after the Rebellion was probably full of people who were close to the court and thus knew Arthur. 

There's also a theory that Arthur is hiding with Howland Reed in Greywater Watch because ...? Frankly, I think he would be significantly less cool, if we found out that he's been ~16 years living in a swamp doing nothing . 

Hello,

There is an interesting theory that I have read, it's not mine at all but I feel it is the most exciting theory by far about the tower of joy. The credit for the theory belongs to "The Order of the Green Hand" which can be found on youtube.  There are some links that suggest that Aurthur Dayne was interested in events beyond the wall and they pertain to his role as "the Sword of the Morning" and his great sword Dawn.  the theory, if i'm remembering it correctly, correlates that Aurthurs sword "Dawn" is the sword used by the "prince that was promised" namely "Lightbringer".  think about it. what brings the light each morning after night? Dawn, right?  especially after "the long night" thus the Dayne family sword is lightbringer.

If "Dawn" is "Lightbringer" that means that the dayne family had a role to play in ending the long night.  This would mean that Ser Aurthur Dayne would be very interested in the events happening beyond the wall.  There is other evidence to suggest that Aurthur Dayne is Mance Rayder.  The way that mance rallies the individual tribes of the wildlings to march for a greater cause is very similar to the way that Ser Aurthur Dayne rallied the small fold to defeat the Kingswood Brotherhood.

there is also the incident of when Mance, disguised as rattleshirt, sparred with Jon Snow at castle black.  Jon Snow is an accomplished swordsman. He trains against 3 people at once.  An impressive feat and is something that we see other great swordsman do (I can only think of Garland Tyrell at the moment but i'm sure it happens more).  So, Jon Snow knows how to fight with a sword but when he goes up against Mance he gets absolutely destroyed. Jon can't believe how outmatched he is.  Mance even says something about (i can't remember the direct quote and I'm at work right now so i can't look it up) how he misses the feel of a great sword.  I realize that this isn't rock solid evidence but it does lend some support to the idea. 

I really suggest looking up the theory for yourselves by "The Order of the Green Hand" on youtube. It is quite an expansive theory that suggests that the White Bull, ser Gerold Hightower, is Tormund Giantsbane and that Ser Oswell Whent is Quarran Halfhand.  I personally hope the theory is true but at the very least it is very entertaining.  CHEERS!

[divica]

21 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

Hello,

There is an interesting theory that I have read, it's not mine at all but I feel it is the most exciting theory by far about the tower of joy. The credit for the theory belongs to "The Order of the Green Hand" which can be found on youtube.  There are some links that suggest that Aurthur Dayne was interested in events beyond the wall and they pertain to his role as "the Sword of the Morning" and his great sword Dawn.  the theory, if i'm remembering it correctly, correlates that Aurthurs sword "Dawn" is the sword used by the "prince that was promised" namely "Lightbringer".  think about it. what brings the light each morning after night? Dawn, right?  especially after "the long night" thus the Dayne family sword is lightbringer.

If "Dawn" is "Lightbringer" that means that the dayne family had a role to play in ending the long night.  This would mean that Ser Aurthur Dayne would be very interested in the events happening beyond the wall.  There is other evidence to suggest that Aurthur Dayne is Mance Rayder.  The way that mance rallies the individual tribes of the wildlings to march for a greater cause is very similar to the way that Ser Aurthur Dayne rallied the small fold to defeat the Kingswood Brotherhood.

there is also the incident of when Mance, disguised as rattleshirt, sparred with Jon Snow at castle black.  Jon Snow is an accomplished swordsman. He trains against 3 people at once.  An impressive feat and is something that we see other great swordsman do (I can only think of Garland Tyrell at the moment but i'm sure it happens more).  So, Jon Snow knows how to fight with a sword but when he goes up against Mance he gets absolutely destroyed. Jon can't believe how outmatched he is.  Mance even says something about (i can't remember the direct quote and I'm at work right now so i can't look it up) how he misses the feel of a great sword.  I realize that this isn't rock solid evidence but it does lend some support to the idea.  

I really suggest looking up the theory for yourselves by "The Order of the Green Hand" on youtube. It is quite an expansive theory that suggests that the White Bull, ser Gerold Hightower, is Tormund Giantsbane and that Ser Oswell Whent is Quarran Halfhand.  I personally hope the theory is true but at the very least it is very entertaining.  CHEERS!

You do know that mance was raised on the Wall right? We kind of have mance's life history and therefore know he can't be arthur dayne.

And I won t even mention how illogical it is for loyal kingsguards to go live among the wildlings and ignore the surviving targs...

[Lady Rhodes]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For my money, I don't think anyone lived there for any extended period of time, with Rhaegar or without him. I think the group was traveling into Dorne down the Prince's Pass to make their way to Starfall (possibly) and get out of Westeros from there (likely with the assistance of the Hightowers) when she went into labor and they took her to the tower because it was the closest shelter to where they were. I don't think they would have been there if they hadn't been forced to be there.

Excellent point. 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

That is the reason why they did not (either all or at least one) go with Queen Rhaella. 

Well, and I don't mean to split hairs here, but it could be argued that their greater duty was to Rhaegar's child, the heir to the throne, over Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys. I am not saying that I agree or like it or, even more so, Rhaenys and Aegon (!!!), but that could be the logic.  They weren't fleeing - they were guarding the King (because Aerys and Rhaegar are dead...)

 

2 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Something tells me we are going to all have our minds blown when Winds arrives.

My latest pet theory is that Darkstar (who was between 9-13 at High Hermitage during Ned's time in Dorne) knows who Jon's mother and father are and that we will find out from Areo's point of view.

Also, I just mentioned in another thread about being respectful of other opinions. If all you have to say is "This has been discussed before", then don't participate in the thread.  Also, we all started out as noobs.

[Nightranger58]

37 minutes ago, divica said:

You do know that mance was raised on the Wall right? We kind of have mance's life history and therefore know he can't be arthur dayne.

And I won t even mention how illogical it is for loyal kingsguards to go live among the wildlings and ignore the surviving targs...

What year was he born and to whom? Who gives us this account? (Not being sassy but i cant remember)

So your suggestion is that aurthor dayne and the others died at the tower of joy even though there was no reason to fight?

Rheagar was a big believer in prophecies and  loyal kingsguard would do as commanded. 

Jon snow is the next sword of the morning, a dayne (through ned and ashara) not a targaryen

 

Dont be so quick to dismiss things as illogical when there are logical reasons

 

Also, why are the kingsguard there guarding an illegitimate baby instead fighting the war with their actual king. I think odds are that prince rheagar was planning a coup.

In the dream ser aurthur wishes ned luck in "the wars to come" what wars? The rebellion is over. Is this just some colloquial saying or does aurthur dayne believe in some coming wars? Its a weird thing to say unless they are talking about something 

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

What year was he born and to whom? Who gives us this account? (Not being sassy but i cant remember)

So your suggestion is that aurthor dayne and the others died at the tower of joy even though there was no reason to fight?

Rheagar was a big believer in prophecies and  loyal kingsguard would do as commanded. 

Jon snow is the next sword of the morning, a dayne (through ned and ashara) not a targaryen

 

Dont be so quick to dismiss things as illogical when there are logical reasons 

I’m sorry I misread this and thought you were referring to me with Darkstar.

[Hangover of the Morning]

1 hour ago, Nightranger58 said:

Hello,

There is an interesting theory that I have read, it's not mine at all but I feel it is the most exciting theory by far about the tower of joy. The credit for the theory belongs to "The Order of the Green Hand" which can be found on youtube.  There are some links that suggest that Aurthur Dayne was interested in events beyond the wall and they pertain to his role as "the Sword of the Morning" and his great sword Dawn.  the theory, if i'm remembering it correctly, correlates that Aurthurs sword "Dawn" is the sword used by the "prince that was promised" namely "Lightbringer".  think about it. what brings the light each morning after night? Dawn, right?  especially after "the long night" thus the Dayne family sword is lightbringer.

If "Dawn" is "Lightbringer" that means that the dayne family had a role to play in ending the long night.  This would mean that Ser Aurthur Dayne would be very interested in the events happening beyond the wall.  There is other evidence to suggest that Aurthur Dayne is Mance Rayder.  The way that mance rallies the individual tribes of the wildlings to march for a greater cause is very similar to the way that Ser Aurthur Dayne rallied the small fold to defeat the Kingswood Brotherhood.

there is also the incident of when Mance, disguised as rattleshirt, sparred with Jon Snow at castle black.  Jon Snow is an accomplished swordsman. He trains against 3 people at once.  An impressive feat and is something that we see other great swordsman do (I can only think of Garland Tyrell at the moment but i'm sure it happens more).  So, Jon Snow knows how to fight with a sword but when he goes up against Mance he gets absolutely destroyed. Jon can't believe how outmatched he is.  Mance even says something about (i can't remember the direct quote and I'm at work right now so i can't look it up) how he misses the feel of a great sword.  I realize that this isn't rock solid evidence but it does lend some support to the idea. 

I really suggest looking up the theory for yourselves by "The Order of the Green Hand" on youtube. It is quite an expansive theory that suggests that the White Bull, ser Gerold Hightower, is Tormund Giantsbane and that Ser Oswell Whent is Quarran Halfhand.  I personally hope the theory is true but at the very least it is very entertaining.  CHEERS!

Thanks for writing up the theory. I think I've seen it before but it's just so ... .I don't even know what to say and I have so many questions. 

Sure, Dawn may be the original Lightbringer but there's still nothing in the text to indicate that Arthur was aware of it or interested in stuff at or beyond the Wall. Pure speculation with zero basis in the text.

The only thing that Mance and Arthur have in common is that they are both men and good with a sword. George could have easily mentioned something about Arthur's love for music or anything that would anyway connect him to Mance but he clearly never thought of it.  All the other hidden identities (e.g. Barristan, Griff, Abel) are telegraphing that they are in disguise and George sometimes even provides hints to their actual identity. 

Mance was raised at the Wall and is well known to many people who are still alive. Arthur was a celebrated tourney knight, famous across the realm, who would be instantly recognised by many people, especially the Targ loyalists who ended up at the Wall at the end of the Rebellion. Arthur likely had purple eyes, which would make him even more stand out and people would be asking questions. Arthur can't just appear at the other end of the realm and assume identity of someone else who is well-known there without a hitch.  Besides, how is a southern knight able to fool everyone to thinking that he's a commoner and a half-Wildling. 

Would the wildlings be really fooled by some Dornish knight who never set foot beyond the Wall (or maybe never even been north of the Twins) to think that he's one of them. He wouldn't even be able to communicate with most of them as they have different languages and different way of life. How is Mance uniting all the Wildlings in any way similar to Arthur's dealings with the Kingswood Brotherhood? Swords were involved but that's about it. The parallels are there only if you are desperately seeking them. 

The idea of a ToJ mega-conspiracy goes against everything we know about Ned Stark. He is constantly plagued by guilt simply by the fact that he has to "lie by omission" about Jon's parentage. He absolutely despises scheming, plotting and lying and would never agree to participate in such elaborate conspiracy.

It is quite an expansive theory that suggests that the White Bull, ser Gerold Hightower, is Tormund Giantsbane and that Ser Oswell Whent is Quarran Halfhand.

I don't even know where to start. So everyone at and beyond the Wall is a perfect method actor and we are watching some stage play? How utterly unbelievable not to mention uninteresting. Why are they doing it? All for Jon? Because they are just props in his story and not actual human beings with their own goals, desires and agendas?

[divica]

24 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

What year was he born and to whom? Who gives us this account? (Not being sassy but i cant remember)

So your suggestion is that aurthor dayne and the others died at the tower of joy even though there was no reason to fight?

Rheagar was a big believer in prophecies and  loyal kingsguard would do as commanded. 

Jon snow is the next sword of the morning, a dayne (through ned and ashara) not a targaryen

 

Dont be so quick to dismiss things as illogical when there are logical reasons 

21 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It was pointed out to me in another thread. @King Aegon I Targaryen Do you remember who?

I am open to hearing a variety of possibilities and try not to dismiss things without asking for further info. Can you tell me more of your thoughts?

I am 99% certain that it was qhuorin halfhand that told it to jon because it was comon knowledge among the elder nw brothers. Then mance also talked about it with jon.

In adition you have arthur breaking all of his vows in order to become a dad and king behond the Wall. Then you have the fact that ned didn t know about mance history (if he was arthur then ned would have kept an eye on him when he joined the watch no?)

Then you have the fact that noone of them went to protect ANY (not only jon) of the living targs). 

Then you have mance going beyhond the Wall but living his sword in dorne (it is very useful there).

Then you have mance never actually trying to bond with jon.

Then you have characters like alistar not recognizing mance