Arthur Dayne?

[divica]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply. I agree with you RE: Darkstar's character.  I think that is why Doran calls him "the most dangerous man in Dorne"  Doran (possibly Oberyn, too, though I am not sure.) knows whatever Darkstar knows (perhaps he sold the information to Doran?)  In brief, these are my reasons: We have numerous characters speak about knights and swordsmen of renown throughout the 7Kingdoms, and these reflecting characters are varied (Brienne, Jaime, Barristan, Sansa).  Notably, they do not mention Darkstar.  This is not to say that he is not a good swordsman, but surely if it was his swordplay that made him "the most dangerous man in Dorne", he would have been brought up by someone else.  This leads me to believe he is dangerous for another reason, which I believe is that he has information of some sort that is of particular value.

Now, I am a believer in R+L=J, but you don't have to subscribe to that to find merit in my theory. He could have knowledge about another baby's parentage or about events that really transpired at the ToJ.

While I agree that your arguments are logical you also have to take into account that darkstar might have been added to the story in feast and therefore there weren t mentions of him earlier.

However I don t think the most dangerous man in dorne would be someone that can t call bannermen or knights to fight… He could be the greatest swordman alive but any lord that can cal 20 fighters would be able to kill him...

So I agree that it isn t his fighting ability that makes him dangerous. However, besides knowing dangerous information his danger could be related to who his parents are. For exemple, what if he is a martell or targ bastard with a dayne?

It could either push dorne into a war or be a threat to doran and his kids control of dorne.

[Lady Rhodes]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

you also have to take into account that darkstar might have been added to the story in feast and therefore there weren t mentions of him earlier.

Fair point, but given the level of crafting that GRRM has put into this story, do you think that is likely that a character that is being dubbed "The Most Dangerous Man in Dorne" was just thrown in there? You certainly could be correct, but I think there is more to it than that.

14 minutes ago, divica said:

However I don t think the most dangerous man in dorne would be someone that can t call bannermen or knights to fight… He could be the greatest swordman alive but any lord that can cal 20 fighters would be able to kill him...

I'm not sure if I understand your argument here. Can you elaborate? 

 

18 minutes ago, divica said:

his danger could be related to who his parents are. For exemple, what if he is a martell or targ bastard with a dayne?

It could either push dorne into a war or be a threat to doran and his kids control of dorne.

I see where you are going with that, but I guess I don't quite understand what narrative purpose it would serve. We already have Aegon/Dany fighting in Dorne being set up and the Arianne/Quentyn fight for Sunspear thread through Feast and Dance, so a war in Dorne or threat to Arianne's position seems off to me. 

Whatever information Darkstar has, I think Doran knows as well. Personally, I have always wondered why the Kingsguard and Lyanna ended up in Dorne anyway - if you are Rhaegar, do you take your mistress or kidnapped loot or second wife or (insert whatever theory you ascribe to) to your first wife's homeland, where she holds significant sway? Seems like there is more to this.

 

[divica]

14 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Fair point, but given the level of crafting that GRRM has put into this story, do you think that is likely that a character that is being dubbed "The Most Dangerous Man in Dorne" was just thrown in there? You certainly could be correct, but I think there is more to it than that.

I'm not sure if I understand your argument here. Can you elaborate? 

We don t really know people from dorne until asos and given what we know so far from doran's master plan it seems grrm developed the dorne storyline later than the rest and that he has dificulties in making it work… So it isn t impossible that he decided to add darkstar in order to make the dorne story work better.

 

And I meant that even the best swordsman in the word is much less dangerous than a rebelious vassal lord capable to summon hundreds of fighters.

27 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I see where you are going with that, but I guess I don't quite understand what narrative purpose it would serve. We already have Aegon/Dany fighting in Dorne being set up and the Arianne/Quentyn fight for Sunspear thread through Feast and Dance, so a war in Dorne or threat to Arianne's position seems off to me. 

Whatever information Darkstar has, I think Doran knows as well. Personally, I have always wondered why the Kingsguard and Lyanna ended up in Dorne anyway - if you are Rhaegar, do you take your mistress or kidnapped loot or second wife or (insert whatever theory you ascribe to) to your first wife's homeland, where she holds significant sway? Seems like there is more to this.

 

But the arianne/quentin dispute wasn t really solved for quentin's supporters and we don t know arianne's position regarding Aegon. Hells, darkstar might even join euron or cersei if he has a claim for dorne…

We have no idea how grrm will use darkstar, it might be several things at this point and they all make sense.

[Lady Rhodes]

25 minutes ago, divica said:

So it isn t impossible that he decided to add darkstar in order to make the dorne story work better.

I see your point. I disagree haha, but I do see your point.

25 minutes ago, divica said:

And I meant that even the best swordsman in the word is much less dangerous than a rebelious vassal lord capable to summon hundreds of fighters.

Oh, you are 100% right, which furthers my point.  If he was the best swordsman in Westeros, someone would have brought him up - Brienne, Barristan, Jaime, Sansa - in one of the many, many recollections that occur.  Not to say that he cannot be killed or that he isn't a skilled fighter, but not enough to be known as the most dangerous man in Dorne.

27 minutes ago, divica said:

quentin's supporters

Did he even have supporters? I thought the whole thing was in Arianne's head.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't think Gerold Dayne is dangerous because of his skills with a sword, but rather the knowledge he flees with. Darkstar seems to be a man of uncertain loyalties and when he took off, he took with him damaging, dangerous information about Arianne and what she was plotting. 

I'm personally not convinced that he did anything to Myrcella (I think the person we hear nothing about during all that action sequence is the one who did it). If Doran is willing to pin the death of Arys Oakheart on him even though he had nothing to do with it, then I think he would willingly pin Myrcella's maiming and near murder on him as well to protect Arianne and Dorne.

[Hangover of the Morning]

14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think Gerold Dayne is dangerous because of his skills with a sword, but rather the knowledge he flees with. Darkstar seems to be a man of uncertain loyalties and when he took off, he took with him damaging, dangerous information about Arianne and what she was plotting. 

I'm personally not convinced that he did anything to Myrcella (I think the person we hear nothing about during all that action sequence is the one who did it). If Doran is willing to pin the death of Arys Oakheart on him even though he had nothing to do with it, then I think he would willingly pin Myrcella's maiming and near murder on him as well to protect Arianne and Dorne.

I completely agree. I certainly wouldn't mind if there was a hidden meaning to "the most dangerous man in Dorne" but just the fact that Darkstar knows about Arianne's ploy and Myrcella's maiming is justification enough for Doran's words.

I too wonder if Darkstar is innocent after all but wasn't he the only one near Myrcella at the crucial time? He also made it clear that he had no qualms about hurting children. Arianne didn't see what happened but good chunk of the people present probably did so not sure how long they could keep up a rouse like that. 

[HexMachina]

58 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

I completely agree. I certainly wouldn't mind if there was a hidden meaning to "the most dangerous man in Dorne" but just the fact that Darkstar knows about Arianne's ploy and Myrcella's maiming is justification enough for Doran's words.

I too wonder if Darkstar is innocent after all but wasn't he the only one near Myrcella at the crucial time? He also made it clear that he had no qualms about hurting children. Arianne didn't see what happened but good chunk of the people present probably did so not sure how long they could keep up a rouse like that. 

We also have areo’s pov after the maiming and he doesn’t indicate any doubt it was darkstar either

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

I too wonder if Darkstar is innocent after all but wasn't he the only one near Myrcella at the crucial time?

It doesn't say who Myrcella's was nearest to when everything was going down. But Arianne hears her shrieking during that sequence, so she might have been nearest to her.

1 hour ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

He also made it clear that he had no qualms about hurting children. Arianne didn't see what happened but good chunk of the people present probably did so not sure how long they could keep up a rouse like that. 

For me, personally, it's difficult to believe he had anything to do with Myrcella being maimed after we know Doran is lying about him killing Arys Oakheart. One of the passages in The Watcher chapter seems to be open to interpretation. 

Myrcella will say what they want her to say, even though we know that she witnessed what happened with Ser Arys and likely knows. Myrcella may not know who her attacker is, but she knows everything else, like how Arianne tried to crown her queen. I'm not sure why Doran would send Myrcella back to King's Landing knowing all she knows, that Arianne was playing at treason. He doesn't know that Myrcella will not spill the beans once she is reunited with her mother.

Anyway, I think another good candidate for the attempt on Myrcella's life is Sylva Santagar. The last time she is mentioned in that chapter is when she veils Myrcella's face. There isn't a peep out of her when they find Hotah. Garin, Drey, Darkstar all speak at one point or another (about yielding) before Arys's charge. After that, Arianne is screaming, she hears Myrcella shrieking (her voice shrill with fear, so this has to be before she is attacked). Spotted Sylva? Nothing from her. 

Sylva had a family member, Aron Santagar, whose head was bashed in during the Bread Riots, on the day Myrcella sailed for Dorne. We don't know who he was to her, an uncle, a cousin or whatever, but vengeance is not a rational thing and I don't think the Martells have the monopoly on it. 

[Lady Rhodes]

17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think Gerold Dayne is dangerous because of his skills with a sword, but rather the knowledge he flees with. Darkstar seems to be a man of uncertain loyalties and when he took off, he took with him damaging, dangerous information about Arianne and what she was plotting.

Ah, a good point. He is dangerous because he knew what Arianne planned.

By and large, I think R+L=J is true; I am not going to get into it because it has been discussed to death.  At this point, people either believe it or they don't. I don't think my words are a magic wand that will change their mind.  That said, I have been persuaded that more occurred during Robert's Rebellion than we are being led to believe.  I think there is a lot of things that are obscure and we need to have light shined on them to truly grasp what happened and what is happening.  Here are a few thoughts that I have heard peddled that I find interest and/or merit in, or things that I think will have a bearing on how the novels unfold.
1. What happened at Summerhall?  - Given that Martin is reluctant to discuss Summerhall in AWOIAF and F&B and in interviews, I think it is safe to say something of importance and merit occurred there.
2. What did Rhaegar read that made him take up sword and lance?  It is indicated by Maestar Aemon I believe that Rhaegar read something that made him think that he was TPtwP.  But what did he read? Where did he find it?  I have been under the impression it was something he found at Summerhall, but I am starting to wonder if I made that assumption in my own mind and if there is actually any textual evidence supporting that.
3.Who fathered Ashara's baby?  An interesting thought that I had when discussing this with my husband is that Brandon is known to be a playboy.  It would be ironic if Catelyn, uber pissed off at Ned for fathering a bastard, would have married Brandon, who may actually have had a bastard(s).  This makes me wonder if he is the Stark that Barristan refers to when he reflects on Harrenhal. But this makes me wonder to, what purpose would that serve?  What is the purpose of including Ashara in the narrative arc at all? Thus, there must be some purpose.
4. What happened in Dorne? What happened at the Tower of Joy? I have heard theories that it was a sacrificial pyre, akin to Summerhall.  I think Dorne has been made to be vague precisely because there is a mystical or magical realism that occurs there. Perhaps this links to Alleras/Sarella?

 

[Black Dragons]

I just add this theory on who is Parents of Jon Snow  Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark  = Jon Snow     Rheagar Targaryen wanted to help his good friend to be with girl he loves Lyanna Stark. He took the blame on himself in kidnapping the girl, bring her to the Tower of Joy to marry Arthur Dayne. I believe this theory than R+L=J

[Black Dragons]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 4:02 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Excellent point. 

Well, and I don't mean to split hairs here, but it could be argued that their greater duty was to Rhaegar's child, the heir to the throne, over Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys. I am not saying that I agree or like it or, even more so, Rhaenys and Aegon (!!!), but that could be the logic.  They weren't fleeing - they were guarding the King (because Aerys and Rhaegar are dead...)

 

My latest pet theory is that Darkstar (who was between 9-13 at High Hermitage during Ned's time in Dorne) knows who Jon's mother and father are and that we will find out from Areo's point of view.

Also, I just mentioned in another thread about being respectful of other opinions. If all you have to say is "This has been discussed before", then don't participate in the thread.  Also, we all started out as noobs.

ps there seven King guards I believe that Rheagar took 3 with him  and left Elia and Rhaenys and Aegon Dragon Stone it that mad King that called Elia Martell and her children back to King Lannings then like an idiotic let in Tywin Lannister's Amry in got everyone kill.

[three-eyed monkey]

On 12/13/2018 at 2:11 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I had youtube videos playing last night and one came up discussing the possibility that Arthur Dayne could still be alive.  I googled it and apparently, this theory has been out there for a time.  Has it been discussed here? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, but it is not something that I have ever heard of before and I would be interested to hear the supposed evidence for this.  Is there a thread floating around somewhere? Thanks.

It is an old theory, and one I would like to be true, even if I find it unlikely to be true. There is a lot to it, but I'll try do both sides of the argument justice. I'm going off memory now so I won't cite exact quotes.

Starting at the Tower of Joy. The basic theory is that Ned, Arthur, and Howland were the last survivors of the fight, and that Arthur would have killed Ned had Howland not intervened. Arthur, through his close relationship with Rhaegar, and Howland, through his relationship with the Green Men on the Isle of Faces and his part in Lyanna coming to Rhaegar's attention as the KotLT, both understood the significance of Lyanna's child and this was the reason Howland appealed for a truce, which Arthur accepted with Ned at his mercy. Later, an arrangement was made where Ned would raise the child while Arthur would be reported dead while in truth he took the black. The Wall would not be a bad option from Arthur's point of view, considering his likely awareness of prophecy from Rhaegar.

Ned recalls that they were seven, against three, and two rode away, which strongly suggests that there were only two survivors. The counter argument is that the language is actually ambiguous, they were seven, against three, and two rode away. Two of "they", who were seven, not two of the total ten. GRRM is a tricksy bird with language.

Arthur Dayne was the other person with Howland when "they" found Ned clutching Lyanna's hand. Some suggest it was in fact a wetnurse named Wylla, but there is no evidence she was at the tower of joy other than "they".

Ned is said to have built eight cairns for the dead and taken Lyanna's remains with him, which strongly suggests eight dead bodies remained at the tower. The counter argument is that there are only seven bodies with one cairn empty, and this is the reason Ned has never gone to return the bones of the fallen to their appropriate houses. He would be one set of bones short. Better to let it lie.

Ned is said to have returned Dawn to Starfall, but Arthur would never have given the sword up. The counter is that he would if he wished to go unrecognized to the Wall, once it was returned to his family seat of course.

Arthur Dayne would be well known and as recognizable as Jaime Lannister is today. But Jamie journeyed to King's Landing without being recognized.

There were people at the Wall who would know Arthur Dayne, like Thorne and a few more. But those few would would be Targ loyalists with respect for Dayne and no reason to expose him. Benjen, for example, who went to the Wall around the same time would have probably known through Ned, but would obviously have kept the secret.

We have no definitive history of Qhorin at the Wall. We don't know how long he was there, why he took the black, where he came from. We only have a line from Jon that says he was a veteran and a legend of the Watch.

Qhorin does say that when he was not much older than Jon he heard about the waterfall in the frostfangs from a ranger, which indicates he was in the watch since he was a little older than Jon was at the time. I find this pretty compelling evidence.

He recognizes Jon as a Stark and says he knew Jon's father. Some people suggest he really means Rhaegar, but as Jon looks like Ned and Qhorin followed the remark by saying the Starks have long been friends of the Watch, he most likely means Ned. Of course, Arthur and Ned would have met at the ToJ.

The Halfhand is clean shaven and straight as a spear, both very knightly attributes.

Qhorin has grey eyes, and while purple eyes seem common with Daynes it should be noted that Edric Dayne's eyes are blue and we have no physical description of Arthur.

Qhorin is a skilled fighter even with his left hand, and Jaime remarked how Arthur could have slain five of Tommen's Kingsguard with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. Jaime is also learning to fight with his left, which is fitting for the boy who wanted to be Arthur Dayne.

There are a couple of quotes about Qhorin arriving with the dawn and dawn being broken when Qhorin rose.

There is a quote about Jon observing the stars where he refers to four constellations as close friends. The Ice dragon, the shadowcat, the moonmaid, and the sword of the morning, which could be interpreted as Aemon, Arya, Ygritte, and Qhorin.

Although it would not be significant to the plot there would be a certain poetry to Qhorin giving his life to save Jon and probably fulfilling a promise to Rhaegar. It is questionable how it would be revealed, with Benjen or Thorne the only ones who might know.

As I said, I like the theory but when I weigh it all up I find it unlikely, mainly based on what Qhorin says about the waterfall. I still think there will be another layer to the ToJ story, but I'm not sure this is it.

[Seams]

On 12/18/2018 at 9:19 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For me, personally, it's difficult to believe he had anything to do with Myrcella being maimed after we know Doran is lying about him killing Arys Oakheart. One of the passages in The Watcher chapter seems to be open to interpretation. 

Myrcella will say what they want her to say, even though we know that she witnessed what happened with Ser Arys and likely knows. Myrcella may not know who her attacker is, but she knows everything else, like how Arianne tried to crown her queen. I'm not sure why Doran would send Myrcella back to King's Landing knowing all she knows, that Arianne was playing at treason. He doesn't know that Myrcella will not spill the beans once she is reunited with her mother.

I think the attack on Myrcella and the death of Arys Oakheart may be important clues for us about Arthur Dayne and the Tower of Joy. Both situations may involve kidnapping / protecting a royal heir. One scene is relayed to us only through an unreliable fever dream retelling; the other scene is "rewritten" afterward to change the public story of who did what. If we examine details of both stories, maybe we can find clues about missing pieces and make some inferences about what "really" happened.

Based on the POV we were given, it appears clear that Areo Hotah killed Arys Oakheart - basically, a king's guard killing a member of the King's Guard. Is there any other circumstance where GRRM has given us KG vs. KG violence? Certainly Ser Loras killing two members of Renly's Rainbow Guard. (I am also on a Dunk & Egg binge, and I think the fight between Dunk and Ser Lucas Inchfield is a symbolic battle of kings guards. Like Areo, Ser Lucas begins that battle with a long axe.) What about in a tournament? In other words, is it possible that Arthur Dayne killed fellow members of the King's Guard at the Tower of Joy? Or that he was killed by one of his "brothers"? Or could Howland or Ned be seen as members of a king's guard of some sort?

Keep in mind, Ser Duncan the Tall "drowned" at the single combat at the Chequy Water, but he was revived by an Ironborn maester. 

I have a suspicion that Myrcella is a symbolic representative of Tyrion. He sent her to Dorne and arranged the betrothal. She loves to play cyvasse. But her name also resembles the words "myrish lace," and I see a possible wordplay hint linking alchemy / chimera / myrish lace. The first two words are associated with Tyrion so, by inference, myrish lace may also give us clues about Tyrion. (He does have a memorable visit to The Vale / veil . . . ) Myrcella gets sliced across the face and loses an ear; Tyrion gets sliced across the face (by a member of the king's guard) and loses his nose. 

I find it persuasive that the whole Myrcella subplot was intended to give us hints about a major player such as Tyrion instead of being a major development in its own right. We know that GRRM uses mummers to reenact or foreshadow major parts of the plot. I think a good bit of the Dornish action (and action in some other location) is a mummer version of events we are seeing elsewhere in the series. This is another point that has been driven home to me after reading and re-reading The Sworn Sword (Dunk & Egg story): it's all about Targaryen succession, even when you think it's not. So linking events to Jon, Tyrion, Dany and Aegon - is where a lot of the story lines will converge. 

Although I haven't been able to think through a logical link, I suspect that Darkstar is intended to circle back to the mysterious Ashara and Arthur Dayne. I'm not sure we will ever get a full, direct explanation of the actions and fates of those two characters (or GRRM may surprise us and reveal them as continuing characters in the story) but he would not have created a spare Dayne without good reason. My guess is that Darkstar has a hidden identity, perhaps unknown to himself (similar to Jon's apparent hidden Targ heritage). I'm sure we will see Darkstar again, and that he will reveal something important about the Daynes as the plot develops.

[asongofheresy]

I love the idea of Arthur being Mance Rayder because of the similarities between them, Arthur when he was dealing with Kingswood Brotherhood and the smallfolk who supported them, Mance and uniting the Free Folk. And "glamoured" Mance looking taller to Jon and his comment about loving the sound of the great sword, Mance beating Jon  I am being tinfoily but that's because I love Arthur. 

[Ygrain]

On 12/14/2018 at 9:35 PM, Nightranger58 said:

The credit for the theory belongs to "The Order of the Green Hand" which can be found on youtube. 

They are hardly the first to come up with the theory. Just saying.

 

On 12/14/2018 at 11:00 PM, Nightranger58 said:

There is more going on with all of these characters than we know. If mance waa raised at the wall where did he learn how to sing and play songs of the south (i suppose some southron singer couldve been at rhe wall and taught him how to sing and play instruments but this doesnt seem to be a priority at the wall)

Daeron was hardly the sole singer, or a person with an interest in music, ever sent to the Wall. When not practising or fighting, people like to have some fun, especially when there's little fun to be had.

 

On 12/14/2018 at 11:00 PM, Nightranger58 said:

It also explains ser jorah's marriage to alysse(sp?) Hightower. In ACOK jorah tells us about his marriage to the hightower girl and how he never thought he would get permision from lord hightower to marry his daughter but he does. Why would the hightowers agree to this marriage when it has absolutely no benifit to them.  By all accounts the girl was beautiful and could have been made a match at a much more powerful house than bear island (a generally poir, non-influential house) why would they make this marriage pact unless they owed bear island a debt?

Lynesse was a spoilt brat. Marrying her off to a love-struck fool who didn't require any riches for the service and lived faaaar away was a boon that Lord Hightower never even dreamt about

- 

On 12/18/2018 at 3:58 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, a good point. He is dangerous because he knew what Arianne planned.

And was in a perfect position to set off a war, and nearly did.

 

On 12/18/2018 at 3:58 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

1. What happened at Summerhall?  - Given that Martin is reluctant to discuss Summerhall in AWOIAF and F&B and in interviews, I think it is safe to say something of importance and merit occurred there.

Agreed. There have been speculations about someone - the Maesters? - preventing Aegon to hatch dragons.

On 12/18/2018 at 3:58 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

2. What did Rhaegar read that made him take up sword and lance?  It is indicated by Maestar Aemon I believe that Rhaegar read something that made him think that he was TPtwP.  But what did he read? Where did he find it?  I have been under the impression it was something he found at Summerhall, but I am starting to wonder if I made that assumption in my own mind and if there is actually any textual evidence supporting that.

There is a piece of information from Barristan that as a child, Rhaegar was only interested in reading, until the morning when he came to the training grounds and declared "It seems I must be a warrior". Nobody knows what it was he read (or even if he read anything, perhaps it was a dream) but I think this is where his conviction about being PTWP started.

On 12/18/2018 at 3:58 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

3.Who fathered Ashara's baby?  An interesting thought that I had when discussing this with my husband is that Brandon is known to be a playboy.  It would be ironic if Catelyn, uber pissed off at Ned for fathering a bastard, would have married Brandon, who may actually have had a bastard(s).  This makes me wonder if he is the Stark that Barristan refers to when he reflects on Harrenhal. But this makes me wonder to, what purpose would that serve?  What is the purpose of including Ashara in the narrative arc at all? Thus, there must be some purpose.

You are certainly not the only one with the thought :-) Poor Cat, and poor Ned, always had to clean his brother's mess

It is most certainly Brandon who Barristan refers to, he has nothing but respect for Ned, which I highly doubt would be the case if Ned was the one who basically destroyed Ashara's life.

Ashara was definitely somehow involved. She may have been part of Rhaegar's inner circle, she may have been Elia's confidant carrying out whatever plan Elia might have had, she may have been Ned's source of information about ToJ, thus inadvertently causing her brother's demise... 

 

[Ygrain]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:26 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I have wondered if it was a feint thing and that she and Viserys were elsewhere - more pointedly, in Dorne with Lyanna. 

Too many witnesses on DS , too much corroborating evidence that places them on DS. DS was under siege for 9 months, and when Stannis finally got there looking for Viserys and Dany, too many people would have had to participate in the ruse claiming that those two were there when they weren't.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:26 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I don't have anything textual to support this notion, beyond Lemongate that suggests that the house with the Red Door was in Dorne and not Braavos. 

I am not dismissing the idea entirely but the notion that trees grow in the courts of the mighty and that the Sealord (who actually had a huge garden) signed the marriage pacts sway me the other way.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:46 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Can fever dreams be trusted? 

Not entirely, but the dreamer's thoughts and recollections certainly can - such as seven against three, just as it had been in life. The outcome that only two lived to ride away is not part of the dream. Building eight cairns is not part of the dream. And so  on.

On 12/14/2018 at 6:53 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

@Legitimate_Bastard  After rereading the text, a key thing comes to my mind - Ned did not know where the missing kingsguard knights were and presumably Lyanna as well. He repeatedly says that he thought he would see them on the Trident, then he thought that he would find them in King's Landing, and then again at Storm's End.  Notably, Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell never say that they were at ToJ for a long time.  At one point, they even say "we were away"

That is one possible interpretation. Another is that this part of dream is actually not about Ned not knowing, but it is a contrast between places (and persons) where their vows would compel them to be (with), and the place where they actually are (and who with), as if asking them, "why are you here"? Here where you have no place to be because your duty is elsewhere.

- What I am getting at is the KG perceiving Jon as Rhaegar's legitimate heir and therefore defending him as their king, which would take priority over anything else.

On 12/14/2018 at 6:53 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

This makes me wonder if ToJ was not the initial holding place for Lyanna. 

Probably not, though Rhae-Rhae must have had a reason to call it "tower of joy". Unless we believe that his joy was Arthur, it must have had something to do with Lyanna and/or her child.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

There is a piece of information from Barristan that as a child, Rhaegar was only interested in reading, until the morning when he came to the training grounds and declared "It seems I must be a warrior". Nobody knows what it was he read (or even if he read anything, perhaps it was a dream) but I think this is where his conviction about being PTWP started.

Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

While it is not confirmed, I think we can safely assume it was the Azor Ahai prophecy.

She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

While it is not confirmed, I think we can safely assume it was the Azor Ahai prophecy.

She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

That is what I assume. To wield the Lightbringer, one must know what to do with it, or at least they would think so. Especially if they had a dream e.g. about wearing black armour and wielding a red flaming sword

[Asshai Backward]

On 12/28/2018 at 9:45 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

 

I. Arthur Dayne would be well known and as recognizable as Jaime Lannister is today. But Jamie journeyed to King's Landing without being recognized.

II.  We have no definitive history of Qhorin at the Wall. We don't know how long he was there, why he took the black, where he came from. We only have a line from Jon that says he was a veteran and a legend of the Watch.

III.  Qhorin does say that when he was not much older than Jon he heard about the waterfall in the frostfangs from a ranger, which indicates he was in the watch since he was a little older than Jon was at the time. I find this pretty compelling evidence.

IV.  The Halfhand is clean shaven and straight as a spear, both very knightly attributes.

 

I. and IV.

Jaimie was unrecognizable after he grew a beard.  Perhaps Arthur is unrecognizable after he shaves his beard off--much like old what's-his-name that snuck into King's Landing with Catelyn.  Barristan is another example of someone who used the beard disguise.  I don't believe it is ever mentioned whether or not Arthur was bearded.  Are any examples of bearded Kingsguard, or is that against the code?

II.  

This one has always bothered me.  "Halfhand" is a wildling sounding nickname, and clearly something he earned later in life.  Every other ranger of note has a surname that indicates their identity.  Some might like the idea of the mysterious stranger, and I do, under some circumstances, but this one flashes like a red light for me.  Especially since he serves as one of the main witnesses for the defense of Mance's identity.

III.  I'm not sure if you've quoted it exactly, but if you have, would the ages line up, with maybe a bit of a stretch of the meaning of "not much older," if Arthur heard the story from the infamous Black Brother who showed up at Harrenhal?  Someone regaling the knights he was attempting to recruit with stories of the wonder and beauty of the far North?

IV.  My first point notwithstanding, this is a very knightly thing to me, and indicative of almost obtuse dedication to some code or set of personal standards.  Shaving in this sort of time period isn't easy in the first place.  Going to the trouble of staying clean shaven in the coldest place in Planetos shows a lot of dedication--either to being clean shaven, or to maintaining a disguise.  

[Seams]

On 1/1/2019 at 10:24 PM, Asshai Backward said:

I. and IV.

Jaimie was unrecognizable after he grew a beard.  Perhaps Arthur is unrecognizable after he shaves his beard off--much like old what's-his-name that snuck into King's Landing with Catelyn.  Barristan is another example of someone who used the beard disguise.  I don't believe it is ever mentioned whether or not Arthur was bearded.  Are any examples of bearded Kingsguard, or is that against the code?

II.  

This one has always bothered me.  "Halfhand" is a wildling sounding nickname, and clearly something he earned later in life.  Every other ranger of note has a surname that indicates their identity.  Some might like the idea of the mysterious stranger, and I do, under some circumstances, but this one flashes like a red light for me.  Especially since he serves as one of the main witnesses for the defense of Mance's identity.

III.  I'm not sure if you've quoted it exactly, but if you have, would the ages line up, with maybe a bit of a stretch of the meaning of "not much older," if Arthur heard the story from the infamous Black Brother who showed up at Harrenhal?  Someone regaling the knights he was attempting to recruit with stories of the wonder and beauty of the far North?

IV.  My first point notwithstanding, this is a very knightly thing to me, and indicative of almost obtuse dedication to some code or set of personal standards.  Shaving in this sort of time period isn't easy in the first place.  Going to the trouble of staying clean shaven in the coldest place in Planetos shows a lot of dedication--either to being clean shaven, or to maintaining a disguise.  

I don't know that this relates to the topic of Arthur Dayne, but it might relate to some of the theorizing around Qhorin Halfhand.

There is a running motif in the books involving the contrast between "shaggy" and "sharp." I believe it begins with an observation by Bran about the two types of Stark statues in the Winterfell crypt and I'm not sure what the contrast stands for, except we have some shaggy animals (garrons and Rickon's direwolf) and sharp swords, faces, etc. I suspect that there is some wordplay around "razor" and "azor (ahai)" but I haven't gone too far down that particular rabbit hole to get at the deeper meaning.

The relevance to Qhorin is that he asks Jon Snow a couple of times whether his sword is sharp. When Jon cuts Qhorin's throat with the tip of Longclaw, Qhorin's final word is, "Sharp" (said with a smile). So it is probably important that Qhorin is clean-shaven - he is on "team sharp".

I agree that Qhorin's backstory, name, where and when he turns up in the story, and his voluntary death are all a bit mysterious. Instead of a wildling connection, I think he may be a "guide" character like the Liddle in the cave or Ser Arlan of Pennytree or Coldhands or Rennifer Longwaters. He has a single purpose - to get Jon through a magical door in the mountain - and then he won't be seen again. He turns up at the Fist, which seems like a magical place (Jon finds the obsidian cache there). Ser Dontos may also fall into this category of a guide character.

To understand his name, I would look at other characters with maimed / named hands - Davos Seaworth, Great Jon Umber, Coldhands, all of the Hands of the King, handmaidens, Theon. CotF have only three fingers and a thumb. His purpose in the story may be similar to the purpose of other people with maimed or named hands.