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Arthur Dayne?


Lady Rhodes

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10 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Thanks for writing up the theory. I think I've seen it before but it's just so ... .I don't even know what to say and I have so many questions. 

Sure, Dawn may be the original Lightbringer but there's still nothing in the text to indicate that Arthur was aware of it or interested in stuff at or beyond the Wall. Pure speculation with zero basis in the text.

The only thing that Mance and Arthur have in common is that they are both men and good with a sword. George could have easily mentioned something about Arthur's love for music or anything that would anyway connect him to Mance but he clearly never thought of it.  All the other hidden identities (e.g. Barristan, Griff, Abel) are telegraphing that they are in disguise and George sometimes even provides hints to their actual identity. 

Mance was raised at the Wall and is well known to many people who are still alive. Arthur was a celebrated tourney knight, famous across the realm, who would be instantly recognised by many people, especially the Targ loyalists who ended up at the Wall at the end of the Rebellion. Arthur likely had purple eyes, which would make him even more stand out and people would be asking questions. Arthur can't just appear at the other end of the realm and assume identity of someone else who is well-known there without a hitch.  Besides, how is a southern knight able to fool everyone to thinking that he's a commoner and a half-Wildling. 

Would the wildlings be really fooled by some Dornish knight who never set foot beyond the Wall (or maybe never even been north of the Twins) to think that he's one of them. He wouldn't even be able to communicate with most of them as they have different languages and different way of life. How is Mance uniting all the Wildlings in any way similar to Arthur's dealings with the Kingswood Brotherhood? Swords were involved but that's about it. The parallels are there only if you are desperately seeking them. 

The idea of a ToJ mega-conspiracy goes against everything we know about Ned Stark. He is constantly plagued by guilt simply by the fact that he has to "lie by omission" about Jon's parentage. He absolutely despises scheming, plotting and lying and would never agree to participate in such elaborate conspiracy.

It is quite an expansive theory that suggests that the White Bull, ser Gerold Hightower, is Tormund Giantsbane and that Ser Oswell Whent is Quarran Halfhand.

I don't even know where to start. So everyone at and beyond the Wall is a perfect method actor and we are watching some stage play? How utterly unbelievable not to mention uninteresting. Why are they doing it? All for Jon? Because they are just props in his story and not actual human beings with their own goals, desires and agendas?

There is more going on with all of these characters than we know. If mance waa raised at the wall where did he learn how to sing and play songs of the south (i suppose some southron singer couldve been at rhe wall and taught him how to sing and play instruments but this doesnt seem to be a priority at the wall)

Why do they call tormund giantsbane husband of bears. If he is the white bull ( is described as a large thick armed man with a hugewhite beard generally like someone that would be nicknamed the white bull) and they snuck up north through bear island and met married/slept with (whatever)

It also explains ser jorah's marriage to alysse(sp?) Hightower. In ACOK jorah tells us about his marriage to the hightower girl and how he never thought he would get permision from lord hightower to marry his daughter but he does. Why would the hightowers agree to this marriage when it has absolutely no benifit to them.  By all accounts the girl was beautiful and could have been made a match at a much more powerful house than bear island (a generally poir, non-influential house) why would they make this marriage pact unless they owed bear island a debt?

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21 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

So your suggestion is that aurthor dayne and the others died at the tower of joy even though there was no reason to fight?

There was every reason to fight. The Kingsguard were protecting Jon. His siblings has just been butchered in the Red Keep so it was obvious that the rebels were serious about wiping down the Targaryen dynasty to the last child. Jon's faith was sealed once his existence is discovered. Even if the KG thought that Ned would never harm his nephew, they knew that the likes of Tywin, Varys or even Robert would. They may have been able to persuade Ned to silence and secrecy but they couldn't expect the same from his men. Everyone can be bought for the right price. 

The KG's didn't know Ned and couldn't rely on Lyanna's words about him. She hasn't seen her brother for over a year. To be honest, I think even Lyanna was little scared of Ned and wasn't sure if he will protect Jon, thus the "When her brother gave his word, the fear left her". Ned was Robert's best friend and Lyanna was to a degree responsible for their father's and brother's death as well as the whole war. 

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13 minutes ago, divica said:

I am 99% certain that it was qhuorin halfhand that told it to jon because it was comon knowledge among the elder nw brothers. Then mance also talked about it with jon.

In adition you have arthur breaking all of his vows in order to become a dad and king behond the Wall. Then you have the fact that ned didn t know about mance history (if he was arthur then ned would have kept an eye on him when he joined the watch no?)

Then you have the fact that noone of them went to protect ANY (not only jon) of the living targs). 

Then you have mance going beyhond the Wall but living his sword in dorne (it is very useful there).

Then you have mance never actually trying to bond with jon.

Then you have characters like alistar not recognizing mance

 

 

Sorry about this. I fixed my reply because I had misread the initial post. I thought he was referring to my point bout Darkstar, not your point about Mance. I’m sorry for causing confusion 

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1 minute ago, Nightranger58 said:

There is more going on with all of these characters than we know. If mance waa raised at the wall where did he learn how to sing and play songs of the south (i suppose some southron singer couldve been at rhe wall and taught him how to sing and play instruments but this doesnt seem to be a priority at the wall)

Why do they call tormund giantsbane husband of bears. If he is the white bull ( is described as a large thick armed man with a hugewhite beard generally like someone that would be nicknamed the white bull) and they snuck up north through bear island and met married/slept with (whatever)

It also explains ser jorah's marriage to alysse(sp?) Hightower. In ACOK jorah tells us about his marriage to the hightower girl and how he never thought he would get permision from lord hightower to marry his daughter but he does. Why would the hightowers agree to this marriage when it has absolutely no benifit to them.  By all accounts the girl was beautiful and could have been made a match at a much more powerful house than bear island (a generally poir, non-influential house) why would they make this marriage pact unless they owed bear island a debt?

One of the various teories about mance is that he might even had been a recruiter to the NW when he was younger exactly because he could sing and play. If he traveled throw westeros it could explain how he learned those songs. Otherwise southerners sent to the Wall can easily have thought him.

They cal him husbund of bears because he likes to tell a story how he had sex with a bear...

 

I have no idea what relation all this has with bear Island… what would the hightowers ever gain with the marriage or if the marriage was so good why did she leave jorah...

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

My latest pet theory is that Darkstar (who was between 9-13 at High Hermitage during Ned's time in Dorne) knows who Jon's mother and father are and that we will find out from Areo's point of view.

I think that it is unlikely because given what we know of darkstar's character he would have sold that information to someone for his personal gain.

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1 minute ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

There was every reason to fight. The Kingsguard were protecting Jon. His siblings has just been butchered in the Red Keep so it was obvious that the rebels were serious about wiping down the Targaryen dynasty to the last child. Jon's faith was sealed once his existence is discovered. Even if the KG thought that Ned would never harm his nephew, they knew that the likes of Tywin, Varys or even Robert would. They may have been able to persuade Ned to silence and secrecy but they couldn't expect the same from his men. Everyone can be bought for the right price. 

The KG's didn't know Ned and couldn't rely on Lyanna's words about him. She hasn't seen her brother for over a year. To be honest, I think even Lyanna was little scared of Ned and wasn't sure if he will protect Jon, thus the "When her brother gave his word, the fear left her". Ned was Robert's best friend and Lyanna was to a degree responsible for their father's and brother's death as well as the whole war. 

So ned and his guys kill the kingsguard and then ned and howland reed take the time to pull down the tower, by themselves to make cairns for the deceased? All while lopking after a baby? How did ned find them? It sounds like a varys plot (when ned talks about varys it does sound like there is some familiarity which suggests a past encounter)

I dont think jon was born at the TOJ. I think that he is the baby of ned and ashara and the heir to winterfell. Here is a link to the theory. Its quite long and in multiple parts but a cool video to think about as we wait for book 6

 

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8 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Sorry about this. I fixed my reply because I had misread the initial post. I thought he was referring to my point bout Darkstar, not your point about Mance. I’m sorry for causing confusion 

In the theory quarrin halfhand is oswell whent so of course he would back it up (convenient for a theory i know but we never hear maester aemon tall about it and most others are too young)

Aurthur is not a dad, im not sure where that came from but i am suggesting that aurthur is jon's uncle (jon is the son of ned and ashara) 

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1 minute ago, Nightranger58 said:

In the theory quarrin halfhand is oswell whent so of course he would back it up (convenient for a theory i know but we never hear maester aemon tall about it and most others are too young)

Aurthur is not a dad, im not sure where that came from but i am suggesting that aurthur is jon's uncle (jon is the son of ned and ashara) 

mance rayder is a dad...

And as I said, the halfhand didn t tell it to jon as if it was a secret. It is a well known story among the nw. And I am not even sure if jeor mormont doesn t also talk about it. And there are all the other things I mentioned

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4 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

There is more going on with all of these characters than we know. If mance waa raised at the wall where did he learn how to sing and play songs of the south (i suppose some southron singer couldve been at rhe wall and taught him how to sing and play instruments but this doesnt seem to be a priority at the wall)

The Wall is full of southerners and Mance lived there good chunk of his life. He may have even travelled around the 7K like Yoren does looking for recruits. There's nothing to indicate that "southern" music is not known in the North and vice versa. Mance knowing "southern songs" is like the most inconsequential "mystery" of the books and really doesn't require him to be secretly a dead Dornish knight to be easily explained. However, the idea that all the Wildlings from all the tribes were fooled by a said Dornish knight would require a massive amount of explanation. 

Why do they call tormund giantsbane husband of bears. If he is the white bull ( is described as a large thick armed man with a hugewhite beard generally like someone that would be nicknamed the white bull) and they snuck up north through bear island and met married/slept with (whatever)

There could only be one large person (and not even Mountain-large just large) among million/s of inhabitants of Westeros? The White Bull was in his sixties when he died. Tormund is considerably younger nearly two decades later. 

11 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

It also explains ser jorah's marriage to alysse(sp?) Hightower. In ACOK jorah tells us about his marriage to the hightower girl and how he never thought he would get permision from lord hightower to marry his daughter but he does. Why would the hightowers agree to this marriage when it has absolutely no benifit to them.  By all accounts the girl was beautiful and could have been made a match at a much more powerful house than bear island (a generally poir, non-influential house) why would they make this marriage pact unless they owed bear island a debt?

So Jorah and the whole House Hightower is in on the conspiracy too? Who isn't? This really requires some bizarre misreading of the text. Lynesse was 4th or 5th daughter of Lord Hightwoer. Marrying your youngest child to a lord, albeit from a minor House, is a perfectly decent match. Jorah was an anointed knight, hero of the Siege of Pyke and just won a big tourney. Even if we admitted that the match was terrible for Hightowers, it would make million times more sense to explain it simply by "Hightower made a mistake" (for example because his spoiled daughter begged him to) than invent some crazy and completely random crackpot that make no sense on any level and is contradicted by everything in the text. 

The theory explains nothing and creates millions of other problems that any proponent of the theory refuses to explain. 

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11 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

So ned and his guys kill the kingsguard and then ned and howland reed take the time to pull down the tower, by themselves to make cairns for the deceased? All while lopking after a baby? How did ned find them? It sounds like a varys plot (when ned talks about varys it does sound like there is some familiarity which suggests a past encounter)

I dont think jon was born at the TOJ. I think that he is the baby of ned and ashara and the heir to winterfell. Here is a link to the theory. Its quite long and in multiple parts but a cool video to think about as we wait for book 6

 

So for the theory to work, you essentially have to disregard everything written in the books and invent your own parallel reality out of thin air. 

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3 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

So for the theory to work, you essentially have to disregard everything written in the books and invent your own parallel reality out of thin air. 

Not really, all that really changes is that the tullys forced ned to marry cat and anull his marriage to ashara. Which would explain why the blackfish left (if he was angry and extorting your leige lord like that) but this is more of a R+L=J theory than avout aurthur.

 

Just thought you might find it interesting 

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4 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

Not really, all that really changes is that the tullys forced ned to marry cat and anull his marriage to ashara. Which would explain why the blackfish left (if he was angry and extorting your leige lord like that) but this is more of a R+L=J theory than avout aurthur.

 

Just thought you might find it interesting 

Neither the tully's nor the starks can anull a marriage. It has to be the high septon. And I have no idea how ned could anull a consumated marriage...

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14 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

So for the theory to work, you essentially have to disregard everything written in the books and invent your own parallel reality out of thin air. 

While harsh what you are saying actually sounds acurate.

The n+a=j only works if we ignore a ton of evidence pointing to other places and then force and borderline invent facts that suport it.

 

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

While harsh what you are saying actually sounds acurate.

The n+a=j only works if we ignore a ton of evidence pointing to other places and then force and borderline invent facts that suport it.

 

Not just everything about R+L=J but Ned was secretly married without giving anything away in his POV, Tullys and Arryns are not who they seems to be, the lands beyond the Wall are solely inhabited by presumed-dead Kingsguard knights from Tower of Joy who are giving daily Oscar-worthy performances and the Mormonts owe Bear Island to Hightowers. People's ages, appearances, skills, personalities, motivations, thoughts or actions as described in the books are all wrong (or at best irrelevant) as are all the laws and customs of the land, geography, culture or simple logic.

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35 minutes ago, divica said:

Neither the tully's nor the starks can anull a marriage. It has to be the high septon. And I have no idea how ned could anull a consumated marriage...

The thinking would be that neds marriage to ashara wpuld have been infront of a heart tree and thus not "legal" in the south.

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4 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

The thinking would be that neds marriage to ashara wpuld have been infront of a heart tree and thus not "legal" in the south.

So you are saying ned would disrespect his faith and his wife in order to have a second marriage and he never thinks about it in his pov? really?

And neither cat not anyone in the riverlands ever mentions or thinks about it?

He would raise jon as a bastard and send him to the Wall when he is the true heir of winterfell?

Does this sound reasonable? Does this sound like the ned we know? 

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59 minutes ago, divica said:

So you are saying ned would disrespect his faith and his wife in order to have a second marriage and he never thinks about it in his pov? really?

And neither cat not anyone in the riverlands ever mentions or thinks about it?

He would raise jon as a bastard and send him to the Wall when he is the true heir of winterfell?

Does this sound reasonable? Does this sound like the ned we know? 

What choice does ned have at that point. He is a traitor to the crown at that point. Either he does it or Robert's rebellion is toast and probably his entire family is murdered if they lose the war

And nedconnects jon and ashara dayne in his pov. He bans asharas name from being said in winterfell after cat asks hin about jon

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34 minutes ago, Nightranger58 said:

What choice does ned have at that point. He is a traitor to the crown at that point. Either he does it or Robert's rebellion is toast and probably his entire family is murdered if they lose the war

And nedconnects jon and ashara dayne in his pov. He bans asharas name from being said in winterfell after cat asks hin about jon

he is a married man and robert is single. which do you think you mary the tully?

Besides the daynes like ned in the present. Do you think if he did what you said they would name a dayne after him?

I think it is cat that remembers that incident. And when is that conecting jon and ashara? Someone started a rumor and he ended it. Why would he hide that ashara is jon's mother? At the very least he has no reason to deny it to his family!

In adition you answered zero of my questions

Quote

So you are saying ned would disrespect his faith and his wife in order to have a second marriage and he never thinks about it in his pov? really?

And neither cat not anyone in the riverlands ever mentions or thinks about it?

He would raise jon as a bastard and send him to the Wall when he is the true heir of winterfell?

Does this sound reasonable? Does this sound like the ned we know? 

The thruth is that teory is super forced. It borderline invents facts and goes against the character of the characters. 

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On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 5:11 PM, divica said:

I think that it is unlikely because given what we know of darkstar's character he would have sold that information to someone for his personal gain

Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply. I agree with you RE: Darkstar's character.  I think that is why Doran calls him "the most dangerous man in Dorne"  Doran (possibly Oberyn, too, though I am not sure.) knows whatever Darkstar knows (perhaps he sold the information to Doran?)  In brief, these are my reasons: We have numerous characters speak about knights and swordsmen of renown throughout the 7Kingdoms, and these reflecting characters are varied (Brienne, Jaime, Barristan, Sansa).  Notably, they do not mention Darkstar.  This is not to say that he is not a good swordsman, but surely if it was his swordplay that made him "the most dangerous man in Dorne", he would have been brought up by someone else.  This leads me to believe he is dangerous for another reason, which I believe is that he has information of some sort that is of particular value.

Now, I am a believer in R+L=J, but you don't have to subscribe to that to find merit in my theory. He could have knowledge about another baby's parentage or about events that really transpired at the ToJ.

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Aurthur Dayne is qhorin halfhand. There’s the couple of quotes about him arriving with dawn,

“Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.”

there’s jaimes quote about Dayne could kill people with his left hand while taking a piss with his right, there him reminiscing about a fire being as beautiful as a maid on her wedding night. 

Also, the ruby necklace of blood from his neck when Jon cuts him suggests secret identity (rubies).

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