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Platypus Rex

Fake Aegon, Real Aegon, and Quentyn Martell

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From what I can tell from browsing this forum, there are two camps here:  Those that believe that "Young Griff" is fake, in that he is not really "Baby Aegon" the son of Rhaegar and Elia; and those who think he is the real deal.

There is evidence for both theories, which I will not list exhaustively.  But, for example, there are clues from Varys that suggest he genuinely believes that Baby Aegon is still alive (and he might well know, thanks to his little birds in King's Landing).  On the other hand, there is the prophesy of the "mummer's dragon" and other indications that suggest that Young Griff might be an impostor.

But what if there is truth to both sides of this question?  What if Aegon survived and escaped King's Landing, but Young Griff is not that child?

I've seen the question asked:  Does it matter if Young Griff is not the real Aegon?  After all, he seems to have been raised to THINK he is Aegon.  And he seems like he might be a semi-decent kid.

In short, who cares about this whole "(f)Aegon" subplot, ….   Unless, perhaps, there is also a real Aegon out there, who is, in truth, one of the 3 "Heads of the Dragon"; and perhaps even "The Prince that Was Promised".  If there were, it might matter that an imposter is claiming the throne in his place.

Are there any characters, to whom we have already been introduced with reasonable prominence, who might possibly be Baby Aegon?

Let's start with All the POV characters; then throw in for good measure, all characters who were important enough to receive at least a mention in the Appendix to the original "A Game of Thrones" volume.  Could any of these characters be Baby Aegon?   Go down the list one by one, and you're answer will be "nope", "nope", "nope".  Wrong age.  Wrong sex.  Wrong appearance.  I've seen Jon Snow mentioned in this capacity, on the theory that his age could possibly be wrong, and he might be older than he believes.  But if so, where did he get his Stark features?

I've seen only one character who might possibly fit the bill.

Quentyn Martell.  POV character, listed in AGoT Appendix.  Right age.  Right sex.  Martell features which (if he is Baby Aegon) would be from his mother.   Backstory involving fostering with the Yronwoods at age 3, providing an ideal circumstance for a baby-swap.  He dreams of Fire and Blood.  And the last thing we saw him do, before Rhaegal attacked him, was face down a dragon with ship in hand.  And Viserion, at least, actually seemed to respond.

And of course if (f)Quentyn is (r)Aegon, then (f)Aegon is probably (r)Quentyn.  And that tells us who Septa Lemore is.  She is (r)Quentyn's mom, Mellario of Norvos.

There is a theory that  Quentyn is alive -- that due to one of GRRM's signature fake-outs, another (probably Prince Tatters) died in his place in Dany's bed.  I believe the theory, but I won't describe the theory in full now.  One of the objections to the theory has always been:  "But, why does it matter if Quentyn is alive?"  Well, here's your answer.

Give me one good reason I should not believe that Quentyn "the Frog" Martell is the real Aegon.

EDIT:  A FEW POINTS FAVORING THE THEORY:

(A) POINTS SUGGESTING AEGON IS ALIVE:  (1) Supposed proof of death is a corpse mutilated beyond recognition for no good reason (ala Bran & Rickon); (2)  Rhaegar's prophesy, in Dany's HOTU vision, says Aegon is Prince That Was Promised and one of the 3 heads of the dragon (which does not work if he is dead); (4)  Varys tells Kevan Aegon survived - would he lie to a dead man?; (5)  Illyrio tells Tyrion Doran mourns Elia and her babe (singular); (6) Rhaegar's prophesy/belief that the 3 heads would be his 3 kids (hard to get to 3 without Baby Aegon).

(B) POINTS SUGGESTING YOUNG GRIFF IS NOT AEGON:  (1) Young Griff is supported by the Golden Company, which in the past supported Blackfyre claims; (2)  Illyrio's hint that Blackfyre descendants survive through the female line; (3) Illyrio's hint that this is no ordinary contract for the Golden Company, but one "written in blood"; (4)  Quaithe's reference to a "mummer's dragon"; (5) Dany's HOTU vision of a cloth dragon on poles before a cheering crowd; (6)  Young Griff's petulant tantrum upon losing at chess - rather a disappointing performance for a Prince That Was Promised; (6) Septa Lemore has secrets, and she was a mother (but the real Aegon's mom is dead).

(C) MISCELLANEOUS POINTS:  (1) Mellario is the best candidate for Septa Lemore - right age, etc.; (2) Quentyn sent at age 3 to be fostered by the Yronwoods; (3) Mellario spending a lot of time in Essos, despite her supposed outrage at being separated from her children; (3)  Quentyn is the only significant character who could plausibly be Aegon; (4) Quentyn's mission lacks adequate support, almost as though Doran wanted him out of the way; (5) Quentyn dreams of fire and blood; (6) Mellario is a Norvoshi noblewoman and (per the World Book) Norvoshi Noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs -- an ideal custom for hiding Valyrian/Targaryen/Blackfyre traits; (7) Arianne starts life looking more like her father; grows up to look more like her mother - a hint that such things are possible; (8) Shaggydog's fur darkens with age - a hint that such things are possible.

(D) POINTS SUGGESTING QUENTYN IS ALIVE:  (1) Corpse burnt beyond recognition; (2) Arch & Gerris are clearly hiding something from Barristan; (3) Several other persons present in the Pit were dressed identically to Quentyn - we only have Gerris' word that they all got away; (4) Tatters tells Quentyn he likes to maneuver incognito … and there were several non-descript Windblown in the Pit; (5) Tatters is "ordinary looking" (off his horse and without his cloak), which plausibly gives him a similar build to Quentyn (short legs, but average height); (5) Gerris "the mummer" making a big show of mourning Quentyn, though we are told he does not mourn friends, except as an act; (6) Viserion seemed to respond to Quentyn, before Rhaegal's attack; (7) We don't actually see what happened after Quentyn started screaming; (8) Viserion makes his lair in a fully-stocked and completely-abandoned pyramid; (9) Tatters, like Quentyn, speaks Westerosi and is used to being called "Prince".

Edited by Platypus Rex

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why would doran send his son away in order to raise his sister's son? And according to you they would have swapped at age 3. At that age lots of people would have come in contact with quentin. Wouldn t they have noticed the swap?

If Aegon had dornish features then doran could have said he was whoever he wants and keep both of them in dorne.

Another problem is fAegon appearance. He looks nothing like ariane or doran, so mellario would need to look a lot like the targs (have no idea what is her appearence).

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39 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Give me one good reason I should not believe that Quentyn "the Frog" Martell is the real Aegon.

Quote

 

Do you have any idea what Rhaenys and Aegon looked like? (Hair color, eye color, etc.)

Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Quote

Quentyn is short-legged and stocky, thickly built, with a plain face, brown hair,[4][8] brown eyes, and stubble on his cheeks.[9] He has a high forehead, broad nose, and square jaw.[8][9]

Aegon had fair hair and the Targaryen look. Quentyn is about as far from that as you can get.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

"why would doran send his son away in order to raise his sister's son?"

But that's not what happened, according to the theory.  According to the theory he send his nephew Aegon away to the Yronwoods IN PLACE of his son, thereby permitting his wife Mellario (a/k/a Septa Lemore) to raise her own son.  Mellario threw a fit over the prospect of losing her son to the Yronwoods, if you recall.

This was part of a blood price, to appease the Yronwoods, after the Red Viper murdered their last lord.

Another possible motive.  It may be that, as the children aged, his own son began to look the part of a Targaryen more than the real Aegon, who as he aged began to look more like a Martell.   And of course, the idea of putting his own son on the Iron Throne might seem tempting

"And according to you they would have swapped at age 3. At that age lots of people would have come in contact with quentin. Wouldn t they have noticed the swap?"

Like who?  Who lives at the Yronwoods, who you think knows the Martell children so well that you assume they could necessarily tell the difference between Doran Martell's 3 year old son, and the 3 year old son of Doran Martell's sister?   And now often has Arianne seen Quentyn, in person, since he was sent away?  And if she did see him, years later, would she know this was not her brother?  It is not as though their might not be a resemblance between them.  They are cousins, after all.

"If Aegon had dornish features then doran could have said he was whoever he wants and keep both of them in dorne."

If he kept them both with him at all times, then: (1) How would he pay his blood price to the Yronwoods? (2) How would he avoid the suspicion of Aegon's true identity, if he has an unexplained mystery child with Martell features hanging around?

There might be other reasons.  Eventually, he wants to rebel and have at least one of the two take the Iron Throne.  Allies in Essos might be helpful, which might require Aegon's (or fAegon's) presence in Essos.

"Another problem is fAegon appearance. He looks nothing like ariane or doran, so mellario would need to look a lot like the targs (have no idea what is her appearence)."

How do you know he looks nothing like Arianne, or even Doran?  There may be some similar features.  

Okay, I get that Young Griff has blond hair and blue (or black? or purple?) eyes, which is not true either or Doran or Arianne.  So Young Griff would probably have to get these features from Mellario, under the theory.  But why is that a problem since (as you admit) you have "no idea what is her appearance".

Mellario may indeed look a lot like the Targs.  We know that the Theocracy of Norvos was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  For all we know, Valyrian heritage may still run strong among the nobility.  And we found out from the World Book that the female nobility of Norvos have a curious custom of shaving their heads and wearing wigs.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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53 minutes ago, corbon said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Aegon had fair hair and the Targaryen look. Quentyn is about as far from that as you can get.

GRRM's words (Rhaenys looked more like a Martell; Aegon more like a Targaryen) were relative rather than absolute.  

Also, young children can change in appearance as they age.  This is common knowledge and common sense, but GRRM also directly hints at it when he mentions that Arianne, in her youth, seemed to resemble her father more, but as she aged, came to resemble her mother more.

Nothing is more normal than to have a blond child grow brown as the child ages.  Do not the vast majority of blond children turn into brown-haired adults?  Quentyn's hair is not even said to be dark brown, AFAIK.  Nor can anyone tell whether a 3 year old child will grow up to be tall and have long legs.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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11 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Mellario, she may indeed look a lot like the Targs.  We know that the Theocracy of Norvos was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  For all we know, Valyrian heritage may still run strong among the nobility.  And we found out from the World Book that the female nobility of Norvos have a curious custom of shaving their heads and wearing wigs.

Peoples who had their own religion. Valyrians had other gods.

Furthermore, the free cities with people who retained Valyrian features are the Lyseni.

Sorry nope: Aegon had Valyrian features, not the Martell features.

If any switch occured it was on Illyrio's side without Varys knowing of it: with his own son.

Edited by sweetsunray

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5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM's words (Rhaenys looked more like a Martell; Aegon more like a Targaryen) were relative rather than absolute.  

Also, young children can change in appearance as they age.  This is common knowledge and common sense, but GRRM also directly hints at it when he mentions that Arianne, in her youth, seemed to resemble her father more, but as she aged, came to resemble her mother more.

Nothing is more normal than to have a blond child grow brown as the child ages.  Do not the vast majority of blond children turn into brown-haired adults?  Quentyn's hair is not even said to be dark brown, AFAIK.  Nor can anyone tell whether a 3 year old child will grow up to be tall and have long legs.

You asked for one reason. You were given it. Choosing to ignore the data is your prerogative.

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4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM's words (Rhaenys looked more like a Martell; Aegon more like a Targaryen) were relative rather than absolute.  

Also, young children can change in appearance as they age.  This is common knowledge and common sense, but GRRM also directly hints at it when he mentions that Arianne, in her youth, seemed to resemble her father more, but as she aged, came to resemble her mother more.

Nothing is more normal than to have a blond child grow brown as the child ages.  Do not the vast majority of blond children turn into brown-haired adults?  Quentyn's hair is not even said to be dark brown, AFAIK.  Nor can anyone tell whether a 3 year old child will grow up to be tall and have long legs.

Valyrian hair stays blonde: see Dany, Rhaegar, Viserys, Velaryons, Lyseni, and pretty much every documented Targaryen with Valyrian looks.

Edited by sweetsunray

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5 minutes ago, corbon said:

You asked for one reason. You were given it. Choosing to ignore the data is your prerogative.

LOL.  No problem, man.  Feel free to bow out of the discussion at any time.  

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Valyrian hair stays blonde

Well sure, I assume that happens to those Valyrians who are blond as adults.  Even in the real world, it is what happened to every other blond adult who stayed blond as an adult.   Every blond adult started out as a blond child. 

It is the reverse that is not necessarily true.  Blond hair can change to brown.  Whence do you derive some hard and fast rule that Valyrian heritage necessarily prevents this?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well sure, I assume that happens to those Valyrians who are blond as adults.  It is what happened to every other blond adult who stayed blond as an adult.  

But that does not prove that blond hair can never change to brown, or that Valyrian heritage necessarily prevents this.

We just had a book full of Targ kids growing up, from Aegon the Conquerer until Aegon III's regency, after the civil war called the Dance of Dragons. We get their features since childhood and as adults. Guess? Not one's hair colour turned dark that wasn't already dark since birth (like Jocelyn Baratheon, who was the daughter of Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon, also the mother of Jahaerys and Alysanne).

In the real world blonde can darken with age, yes. But in aWoIaF it doesn't.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Aegon had fair hair and the Targaryen look. Quentyn is about as far from that as you can get.

If playboy Daario can dye his hair?  You know what I mean.

But seriously folks.  It is my opinion that Aegon is true.  I know, he could be a Blackfyre and I admit that.  Varys had no call to lie about it to Kevin.  

Edited by Here's Looking At You, Kid

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16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

"Peoples who had their own religion. Valyrians had other gods."

Sure.  But what's your point?

"Furthermore, the free cities with people who retained Valyrian features are the Lyseni."

Sure.  But how does the Lyseni having Valyrian features prove that no one else had any?

"Sorry nope: Aegon had Valyrian features, not the Martell features."

It's not such a strong argument if you have to change what GRRM actually said.  A relative statement does not become absolute just because you need to win an argument.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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13 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

But that's not what happened, according to the theory.  According to the theory he send his nephew Aegon away to the Yronwoods IN PLACE of his son, thereby permitting his wife Mellario (a/k/a Septa Lemore) to raise her own son.  Mellario threw over the prospect of losing her son to the Yronwoods, if you recall.

This was part of a blood price, to appease the Yronwoods, after the Red Viper murdered their last lord.

Another possible motive.  It may be that, as the children aged, his own son began to look the part of a Targaryen more than the real Aegon, who as he aged began to look more like a Martell.   And of course, the idea of putting his own son on the Iron Throne might seem tempting

"And according to you they would have swapped at age 3. At that age lots of people would have come in contact with quentin. Wouldn t they have noticed the swap?"

Like who?  Who lives at the Yronwoods, who you think knows the Martell children so well that you assume they could necessarily tell the difference between Doran Martell's 3 year old son, and the 3 year old son of Doran Martell's sister?   And now often has Arianne seen Quentyn, in person, since he was sent away?  And if she did see him, years later, would she know this was not her brother?  It is not as though their might not be a resemblance between them.  They are cousins, after all.

"If Aegon had dornish features then doran could have said he was whoever he wants and keep both of them in dorne."

If he kept them both with him at all times, then: (1) How would he pay his blood price to the Yronwoods? (2) How would he avoid the suspicion of Aegon's true identity, if he has an unexplained mystery child with Martell features hanging around?

There might be other reasons.  Eventually, he wants to rebel and have at least one of the two take the Iron Throne.  Allies in Essos might be helpful, which might require Aegon's (or fAegon's) presence in Essos.

"Another problem is fAegon appearance. He looks nothing like ariane or doran, so mellario would need to look a lot like the targs (have no idea what is her appearence)."

How do you know he looks nothing like Arianne, or even Doran?  There may be some similar features.  

Okay, I get that Young Griff has blond hair and blue (or black? or purple?) eyes, which is not true either or Doran or Arianne.  So Young Griff would probably have to get these features from Mellario, under the theory.  But why is that a problem since (as you admit) you have "no idea what is her appearance".

Mellario, she may indeed look a lot like the Targs.  We know that the Theocracy of Norvos was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  For all we know, Valyrian heritage may still run strong among the nobility.  And we found out from the World Book that the female nobility of Norvos have a curious custom of shaving their heads and wearing wigs.

1) So where do you say faegon(true quentin/aka blonde dude) live in your theory? Because acording to varys and faegon's words he never lived in a castle. In adition if I am not wrong he has been with jon com since he was 5. So you are saying mellario has been living as septa lemore for years and nobody talks about her disapearence? as in nobody knows where she is.

And blonde dude wouldn t remember dorne? wouldn t remember septa lemore from before?

In adition why would doran send quentin (fake quentin/true Aegon/Brown dude) to marry danny and ariane to investigate blonde dude? what if Brown dude married danny and blond dude fel in love with/married ariane (his sister in yor theory)? they could become enemies! And it doesn t make sense to send ariane to investigate blonde dude.

 

2) people as diferent as Brown dude and blonde dude dont look similar at age 3... At present they are completly diferent!

4) If arianne looks like melario and arianne doesn t looke anything like blonde dude then melario doesn t have targ features.

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8 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

If playboy Daario can dye his hair?  You know what I mean.

But seriously folks.  It is my opinion that Aegon is true.  I know, he could be a Blackfyre and I admit that.  Varys had no call to lie about it to Kevin.  

varys only said that the kid's name was Aegon. You never him say he did the swap.

 

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9 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sure.  But what's your point?

"Furthermore, the free cities with people who retained Valyrian features are the Lyseni."

Sure.  But how does the Lyseni having Valyrian features prove that no one else had any?

"Sorry nope: Aegon had Valyrian features, not the Martell features."

It's not such a strong argument if you have to change what GRRM actuallyt said.

1) My point is that the Valyrian conquered lots of people who didn't look Valyrian, people who had their own religion.

2) Valyrian looks can appear in certain freeholds where it is mentioned that they have a mix of Valyrian ancestors, especially Valyrian dragonlords. Lys is said to be the sole free city where Valyrian features are still prevalent, and were actively bred for. So, some Norvosi may have Valyrian features, but it's not a typical Norvosi appearance.

3) I don't have to rely on GRRM's words on that. We get witness reports on that in the books and the HotU vision of Rhaegar with Elia and baby Aegon for that.

Here's a witness account, Kevan's

Quote

"That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar's children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word. (aDwD, Epilogue)

Even if the baby had been switched, the baby that was killed was believed to be Aegon on account of his fair hair. In other words, Aegon had fair hair.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

But what if there is truth to both sides of this question?  What if Aegon survived and escaped King's Landing, but Young Griff is not that child?

I think it would make for an interesting twist if Varys actually did get the real Aegon out of Kings Landing, hand him over to Illyrio, and then Illyrio swaps him with fAegon. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

I've seen the question asked:  Does it matter if Young Griff is not the real Aegon?  After all, he seems to have been raised to THINK he is Aegon.  And he seems like he might be a semi-decent kid.

If he would make a good King then I don't see any problem with it. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Give me one good reason I should not believe that Quentyn "the Frog" Martell is the real Aegon.

Because Aegon looked like a Targaryen.

Lets just say for the sake of the argument that Aegon didn't look like a Targaryen, and in fact took after his mother like Rhaenys, then why would Varys, who would've known what Aegon looked like, got a Valyrian looking child to try and pass him off as the real Aegon? 

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20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

"We just had a book full of Targ kids growing up, from Aegon the Conquerer until Aegon III's regency, after the civil war called the Dance of Dragons. We get their features since childhood and as adults."

LOL.  Does it also describe, in detail, the age at which the child was potty trained?  What about the ones who were born bald, as many babies are?  Is that described?  What about the boys who were born with undescended testicles?  Is that also detailed?

Dude.  It is also extremely rare for real world history books to mention that famous figures grew darker as they aged.  I can't think of a single example, off hand.  

"Guess? Not one's hair colour turned dark that wasn't already dark since birth (like Jocelyn Baratheon, who was the daughter of Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon, also the mother of Jahaerys and Alysanne)."

Okay.  That's one example.   We also have such examples in the real world of dark haired children who were dark haired as adults.  How does that prove your hard-and-fast rule?

Also, does it say how old she was when she was brown as a child?  Does it really document this back before her first or second birthday?  Was she brown or black (it makes a difference, you know).  Quote please.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't have to rely on GRRM's words on that. We get witness reports on that in the books and the HotU vision of Rhaegar with Elia and baby Aegon for that.

Here's a witness account, Kevan's

Dude.  Nobody is denying that he had fair hair as a toddler.  I also had fair hair, as a toddler; and well into early childhood  and beyond.  Now my hair is brown, and I don't know that it is any less dark a brown than Quentyn's.

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Dude.  Nobody is denying that he had fair hair as a toddler.  I also had fair hair, as a toddler; and well into early childhood  and beyond.  Now my hair is brown, and I don't know that it is any less dark a brown than Quentyn's.

Dude, you understand that you are reading fantasy where the author has made up his own rules, right? Real world be damned because if not,  the Targs would look like walking Dali portraits. There is no Maury Povich here, and no sticks to pee on to where you get a little + if you are pregnant. This is how this author has decided to do "genetics" in a very simplified way to tell a story. The story is first.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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