Fake Aegon, Real Aegon, and Quentyn Martell

[Platypus Rex]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Even if the baby had been switched, the baby that was killed was believed to be Aegon on account of his fair hair. In other words, Aegon had fair hair.

Yes he HAD fair hair.  The question is whether he is still fair.  

If his appearance changed as he aged, this might provide a motive for the baby swap.   If Doran plans to put a relative on the Iron Throne as Aegon, that relative will need to look the part.

[divica]

11 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I think it would make for an interesting twist if Varys actually did get the real Aegon out of Kings Landing, hand him over to Illyrio, and then Illyrio swaps him with fAegon. 

That would be interesting. But there are a lot of interesting theories about who faegon is. 

[Platypus Rex]

12 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

"Because Aegon looked like a Targaryen."

To an extent, yes.  But if you are trying to make that absolute, you are changing what GRRM actually said.

"Lets just say for the sake of the argument that Aegon didn't look like a Targaryen, and in fact took after his mother like Rhaenys …"

Why on earth would I say that "for the sake of argument"?  My argument does not require that at all.  ALL children are, at least to some extent, a mix of both parents.  Which is exactly why GRRM's words, as quoted above, use relative, rather than absolute wording.

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Yes he HAD fair hair.  The question is whether he is still fair.  

If his appearance changed as he aged, this might provide a motive for the baby swap.   If Doran plans to put a relative on the Iron Throne as Aegon, that relative will need to look the part.

Its not just his hair.

Targaryen hair is not the same as "normal" blonde hair. It has silver and/or golden elements. There is no record of any fair Targaryen darkening. The onus is on you to provide evidence supporting your theory from the texts, not require others to disprove it.

All of the art in the official books shows the Targaryen "look" as lean, light and aquiline (my best description) - especially in their youth.
Quentyn however is short-legged, stocky, broad nosed and square jawed. Like I said, ignoring the colouring entirely Quentyn as more or less as far from the Targaryen "look" as you can get.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

From what I can tell from browsing this forum, there are two camps here:  Those that believe that "Young Griff" is fake, in that he is not really "Baby Aegon" the son of Rhaegar and Elia; and those who think he is the real deal.

There is evidence for both theories,

No there isn't. There are circumstantial possibilities based on personal interpretations of what has been released. An example, A "mummer's dragon" could be read as a cloth dragon swaying on metal poles, as seen by dany in a vision, or it could be that Varys was a mummer, and (f)Aegon is "his"after saving him and setting up his care and training. Also, a cloth dragon swaying on metal poles could be (f)Aegon's standard being raised over Storm's end after taking the castle. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

LOL.  Does it also describe, in detail, the age at which the child was potty trained?  What about the ones who were born bald, as many babies are?  Is that described?  What about the boys who were born with undescended testicles?  Is that also detailed?

Dude.  It is also extremely rare for real world history books to mention that famous figures grew darker as they aged.  I can't think of a single example, off hand.  

"Guess? Not one's hair colour turned dark that wasn't already dark since birth (like Jocelyn Baratheon, who was the daughter of Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon, also the mother of Jahaerys and Alysanne)."

Okay.  That's one example.   We also have such examples in the real world of dark haired children who were dark haired as adults.  How does that prove your hard-and-fast rule?

I'm not a dude. And there's no need to get pissy because there's no evidence in-world for your claims. It's not just one example. Aynys, Maegor, Rhaena, Aegon, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Aerea, Rhaella, Aemon, Baelon, Saera, Viserys, Rhaenyra, her half brothers... none of them darken in hair color with age.

For the rest: it's part of world building. George writes this world, and it's not a copy of the real world. In world building, George sets up the precedents, so that a reader can find the clues leading up to a reveal. And he doesn't cheat. Though Aegon came as an (annoying to some) surprise, there was foreshadowing for his possible existence. So, if he wanted Quentyn to be Aegon, George would have included blond-born Targ children darken in hair color with age in the many opportunities he could do so, such as in the World Book and F&B. He didn't.

But hey, if you want to ignore all the actual evidence that doesn't agree with your idea, have fun with it. I don't disagree with the idea that Varys may actually have saved baby Aegon from the Mountain, and that it is possible that beyond his knowledge baby Aegon got switched again. But then it makes way more sense for that switch to have happened in Pentos, by Illyrio. His wife Serra died of the grey plague. Illyrio could have had a son with her. If baby Aegon died in the same plague, then Illyrio could have pretended that instead his son had died, and made his son out to be Aegon.

Not sure that's the case, but that's a scenario that actually falls within possibilities.

[Platypus Rex]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dude, you understand that you are reading fantasy where the author has made up his own rules, right? 

You sound preachy, but what is your point?

You realize that GRRM does not have to follow YOUR rules, right?  And if he does not have to follow YOUR rules, he is free to create a Targaryen blond toddler who turns brown (for all I know, only light brown) as it ages.  And if he is free to do that, it is possible that this theory is correct.  

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

You sound preachy, but what is your point?

You realize that GRRM does not have to follow YOUR rules, right?  And if he does not have to follow YOUR rules, he is free to create a Targaryen blond toddler who turns brown (for all I know, only light brown) as it ages.  And if he is free to do that, it is possible that this theory is correct.  

George is free to write in anything he wants, like some alien with 5 heads. But George does not cheat on his own world set-up. That's not the type of writer he is. If fair haired Targs could darken in age, he would have included it in the story already somewhere, as a clue for us to speculate on. He didn't.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

You sound preachy,

You sound like you have some sort of theory complex, sooo 

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

but what is your point?

You realize that GRRM does not have to follow YOUR rules, right?  And if he does not have to follow YOUR rules, he is free to create a Targaryen blond toddler who turns brown (for all I know, only light brown) as it ages.  And if he is free to do that, it is possible that this theory is correct.  

Oh jeebus When did I say they were "my" rules? Have you done any research on how GRRM is handling his "genetics"?

You want people to take what you are saying seriously and yet you have insulted every person who has given you material that shows otherwise. I've been down this road before an. Enjoy the bog cuz' I have to watch paint dry.

[Platypus Rex]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

"I'm not a dude."

Dudette, then.  (BTW, your avatar has a beard.  You might want to change it if this sort of confusion offends you).

"And there's no need to get pissy because there's no evidence in-world for your claims." 

There IS evidence for this theory, generally speaking.

As for your suggestion that GRRM has created a hard and fast rule that no child with Valyrian heritage ever darkens with age, therefor that this theory is actively disproven, regardless of other evidence for it, I'd say the burden is on you to present far more compelling proof than you have done so far.

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"When did I say they were "my" rules?"

If it is GRRM's rule, I have yet to see the evidence.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No there isn't. There are circumstantial possibilities based on personal interpretations of what has been released. An example, A "mummer's dragon" could be read as a cloth dragon swaying on metal poles, as seen by dany in a vision, or it could be that Varys was a mummer, and (f)Aegon is "his"after saving him and setting up his care and training. Also, a cloth dragon swaying on metal poles could be (f)Aegon's standard being raised over Storm's end after taking the castle. 

There is also the statue that ilirio has of faegon in his house (he says it is he when he was young), the strange afection he has for faegon, the fact he and varys have been training and suporting him to be king… why would illyrio support a baby? we are talking about a 15 to 20 year plan! Also his eyes are light purple instead of deep purple...

There are a lot of things that support that Aegon might be fake. I would say much more support that he is fake than otherwise.

 

ps having something like the chinese dragons in new years eve and a standard are very diferent things

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

If it is GRRM's rule, I have yet to see the evidence.

That is crystal clear

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Dudette, then.  (BTW, your avatar has a beard.  You might want to change it if this sort of confusion offends you).

"And there's no need to get pissy because there's no evidence in-world for your claims." 

There IS evidence for this theory, generally speaking.

As for your suggestion that GRRM has created a hard and fast rule that no child with Valyrian heritage ever darkens with age, therefor that this theory is actively disproven, regardless of other evidence for it, I'd say the burden is on you to present far more compelling proof than you have done so far.

So, just because I'm a woman I cannot use the avatar of one of my most favourite side characters in the books? It says on my profile that I'm a woman.

There is no evidence for fair haired targ babies becoming dark haired adults.

No, it's on you to prove your claim. So far, you haven't. All you've argued is that in the real world blonde hair can darken with age and George is free to write whatever he wants. Nice evidence, dude!

[Platypus Rex]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

"So, just because I'm a woman I cannot use the avatar of one of my most favourite side characters in the books?" 

Of course.  Do as you please.  It's just that the beard might confuse some people.

"It says on my profile that I'm a woman."

Yes, I see that now.  Sorry, sorry, sorry.  Mea Culpa.  Mea Culpa.  Mea Culpa.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Of course.  Do as you please.  It's just that the beard might confuse some people.

"It says on my profile that I'm a woman."

Yes, I see that now.  Sorry, sorry, sorry.  Mea Culpa.  Mea Culpa.  Mea Culpa.

Mistakes happen. I have no issues with that. You're not the first one who thinks of me as a he, nor will be the last. Most of them don't address strangers with a dismissive "dude [chill]" way though.

[Platypus Rex]

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

Targaryen hair is not the same as "normal" blonde hair. It has silver and/or golden elements. 

I'm aware of no proof that Baby Aegon, even at age one, had hair that was blond in some super-abnormal sense.

We know only that his hair was "fair"; and that, in a general sense and without specific reference to his hair, he looked "more like a Targaryen", in contrast to Rhaenys who looked "more like a Martell".

[Platypus Rex]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Mistakes happen. I have no issues with that. You're not the first one who thinks of me as a he, nor will be the last. Most of them don't address strangers with a dismissive "dude [chill]" way though.

Whoever you are!  Whatever you are!  Please chill out!  For God's sake

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Platypus Rex said:

Whoever you are!  Whatever you are!  Please chill out!  For God's sake

I'm as cool as an Other.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, divica said:

"1) So where do you say faegon(true quentin/aka blonde dude) live in your theory?"

Wherever Young Griff lived, he lived.  

"Because acording to varys and faegon's words he never lived in a castle."

I guess he never lived in a castle then.  I'm not sure if Quentyn would have stayed in castles much even before aged 3.  For instance, are the Water Gardens a castle?  In any event, most children don't remember what happens before aged 3, by the time they reach aged 7.

"In adition if I am not wrong he has been with jon com since he was 5."

Okay.  I don't see the problem, though

"So you are saying mellario has been living as septa lemore for years and nobody talks about her disapearence?"

???  It is apparently a matter of record that Doran and Mellario are semi-estranged.  And it is at least hinted that this dates from the time Quentyn (or fQuentyn) was sent away.  

So it seems to me likely that everyone knows of her "disappearance".  However, there is nothing that requires her to be gone 100% of the time; as nothing establishes that she is with Young Griff 100% of the time.  So nothing prevents her from returning for visits, as she has (apparently) indeed been doing.  That's how we got Trystane.

"And blonde dude wouldn t remember dorne?"

Maybe he would.  Is there anything that establishes he does not remember Dorne?  Is there anything that establishes that Young Griff (no matter who he is) has never visited Dorne?  Isn't he being secretly groomed to rule the Seven Kingdoms?  But, again, children typically lose their memories before aged 3 long before they reach adulthood.

"wouldn t remember septa lemore from before?"

Children are trusting.  If, at age 3, your mom said, "I'm really just your foster mom; your real mom is Elia of Dorne, and your real dad is Rhaegar Targaryen, and from now on you must stop calling me 'mom' and call me 'Septa' because reasons", you would trust and believe and probably obey what your mom said.  And by the time you reached age 7 (if you are like most children), you will by then have lost all memories dating before age 3.

But sure.  You would probably have quite some affection for the woman you have been calling "Septa Lemore" for as long as you can remember, and who has been like a mom to you.

Nor is there anything about this theory that requires that fAegon have no suspicions at all that he is not in fact Aegon.  But I don't see that he necessarily would, either.

"In adition why would doran send quentin (fake quentin/true Aegon/Brown dude) to marry danny and ariane to investigate blonde dude?"

That's 2 questions at once.  Slow down!

You ask "Why would Doran sent Quentyn to marry Dany if Quentyn is fake?"   Ask yourself this question.  Why would Doran send Quentyn to marry Dany if Quentyn is real?   However, you answer it, I don't see why the answer would be any different if he is fake.  

Why does Doran want Arianne and fAegon to meet each other?   Well, I don't know all his plans.  But why would he NOT want his allies to meet each other?  Sure, he does not admit to Arianne that he knows more about Young Griff than he lets on.  But why would he do that?  Arianne has not been particularly loyal in the past.  He may not be in a rush to give her ALL his secrets.

"what if Brown dude married danny and blond dude fel in love with/married ariane (his sister in yor theory)?"

Then we would have an accidental/unintentional incest drama.  But my theory takes no position on whether that will or will not happen. 

"people as diferent as Brown dude and blonde dude dont look similar at age 3... At present they are completly diferent!"

Fair children do indeed turn brown.  What else you may be talking about, and what your evidence for it might be, is unclear.

Also, the issue is not whether they looked similar at aged 3, but whether they looked similar at aged 1.  By aged 3, it is possible that "Real Aegon" already looked less like a Targ.  Which might be one of the motives for the swap.  Doran might have figured that, to take the Iron throne, it would help if the claimant looked the part.

"If arianne looks like melario and arianne doesn t looke anything like blonde dude then melario doesn t have targ features."

The implication is that Arianne takes after Mellario in terms of being beautiful and busty.  It is never said that they have the same hair color.  Nor is it ever said that they had the same eye color.  But even if they were thought to have the same hair color, remember again that little detail about how noble Norvoshi ladies shave their heads and wear wigs.  Mellario may have always worn a brown wig.