Fake Aegon, Real Aegon, and Quentyn Martell

[norwaywolf123]

On 12/14/2018 at 3:02 AM, divica said:

varys only said that the kid's name was Aegon. You never him say he did the swap.

 

Varys statement of "Aegon being here" could be a lie of omission. Where Varys clearly says Aegon suggesting to Kevan that it is Aegon son of Rhaegar. That is the only Aegon, Kevan is familiar with(atleast who has a blood claim on the Iron Throne).

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 12:58 AM, White Ravens said:

I will stop now.  I admit that I don't have very strong feelings one way or another on your theory.  I was just having a try at your posting style.  

I am a person of many flaws.  Maybe if my ideas have any merit (probably not) they will get picked up by, and expressed better by some fan who expresses himself and defends his/her ideas much better than I do, and expresses better posting judgment than I do.  But hey, I do the best I can.

In the meantime:

To the extent your post is substantive, and not personal, I guess what you are trying to say is that you are not particularly interested in this theory, because you think the real Baby Aegon is dead.

Which is a perfectly fair position to take.  If you expected me to get upset when confronted with an alternative possibility, inconsistent with some personal "head canon" you imagine I have, then I think you have the wrong person.  

What more do you want me to say?

And for the record, I found your style perfectly readable (if a bit beside the point) until I got to the end, when it appeared that this was all some elaborate criticism of my flaws of style and/or character.

Now, we COULD talk some more on the topic of Aegon being dead (which he may well be). 

However, the original point of this thread was not to revisit the issue of whether Aegon is alive (which I expect has been rather extensively explored) but accept is as the premise, and see where it leads.  But certainly, I think there are ENOUGH indications that Aegon might be alive to make it possibly worth our time (if only for fun) to explore a theory based on the premise that he is alive.  

But I'm not sure you were (any serious way) attempting to revisit that issue either.  

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:43 PM, divica said:

OH I know where you can find it!

In radio westeros vídeo about the edge knight they talk about it towards the end.

According to my memory it goes like this.

Someone asked grrm if brienne is dunk's descendent and grrm answers that he gave a rather strong indication that she is when someone describes the shield she uses (it is the same dunk used and she found it in tarth's armory.

However you should check the vídeo (it is a long vídeo, but the information is towards the end). Like after they analise the book and start talking about theories. Grrm was really quite assertive that she is dunk's descendent.

Thank you for the reference.  The story is at the 1:50:00 mark.  Your memory is confused, however.

Bottom line is. GRRM did not confirm anything.  What he reportedly said was "eventually  all will be revealed in time", when a fan tried to sneak in a quick question during a busy book signing. 

If you throw in a full stop after eventually, and incorporate an assumption inherent in the loaded question, gets interpreted as "You will eventually find out how Brienne descends from Dunk".

Which I very much doubt is what he meant to say.  But even so, if we eventually find out that Brienne does not descend from Dunk at all, it won't be a lie.

This is "confirmation" for those who already believe it.  But if things turn out otherwise, in the books, nobody will be able to claim that GRRM lied to hem. 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Thank you for the reference.  The story is at the 1:50:00 mark.

Bottom line is. GRRM did not confirm anything.  What he reportedly said was "eventually  all will be revealed in time", when a fan tried to sneak in a quick question during a busy book signing. 

If you throw in a full stop after eventually, and incorporate an assumption inherent in the loaded question, gets interpreted as "You will eventually find out how Brienne descends from Dunk".

Which I very much doubt is what he meant to say.  But even so, if we eventually find out that Brienne does not descend from Dunk at all, it won't be a lie.

This is "confirmation" for those who already believe it.  But if things turn out otherwise, in the books, nobody will be able to claim that GRRM lied to hem. 

Honestly, Brienne being a descendant from duncan isn t that important. It is simply a curiosity and a link between stories. As far as we know duncan can have several descendants…

Can you really see a point in grrm giving such a clear clue witht the shield and his response about brienne being his descendent only to troll the fans later? 

[Platypus Rex]

53 minutes ago, divica said:

Honestly, Brienne being a descendant from duncan isn t that important.  It is simply a curiosity and a link between stories.

Well, I'm tempted to agree.  If it IS important, I cannot guess how or why?  It seems an unimportant thing to keep secret for 16 years.

However, the idea that Rhaegar has one or more living descendants might be kind of spoilerish.

"As far as we know duncan can have several descendants…"

At one time, the story was that he had said that there were FOUR descendants of Dunk running around.  But though traces of that tale survive on the internet, it is no longer possible to trace it to his source.  It might be apocryphal.  

"Can you really see a point in grrm giving such a clear clue witht the shield and his response about brienne being his descendent only to troll the fans later?" 

GRRM never identified the shield as the clue, when he said he left a clue in FEAST.  He just said he left a clue in FEAST.

I don't really see the plot point of the shield.  If I were to guess, I would guess that GRRM is setting up something for later, but I'm not sure what.  I might guess he is planning to play identity-confusion games using the emblems we associate with Brienne.  

But I do not see how a shield in Lord Evenstar's armory logically proves Brienne is a descendant of Dunk.  Call this a clue if you like, but it is certainly not a CLEAR clue that anybody is related to anyone else.  GRRM never said it was.

GRRM did not troll the fan, at Balticon.  The fan trolled him, by improperly asking him a loaded question during a busy book signing.  GRRM could have trolled the fan -- she certainly deserved it.  But he did not.  He just politely gave a noncommittal answer "eventually all will be revealed in time".

This is all the doing of the fan … and others.  GRRM is completely innocent.

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:40 AM, Ygrain said:

On a side note: inbreeding itself doesn't cause mental illness or deformities. All of Valyria's top-ranking families were inbred, yet no-one refers to Valyrians as a nation of deformed simpletons.

I'm not sure we know exactly what exactly went on in Valyria before the doom.   The Valyrians were preoccupied with racial purity; but there were enough other Valyrians around that they would not have had to be constantly marrying their sisters to find Valyrian mates.  I would guess it is fair to assume that the incest taboo was not strong in Valyria, but I am less sure that sibling marriage was as constant a thing.

As I understand it, incest, while not a good idea (or a moral one) is something that one might plausibly "get away with" if it were only an occasional thing; as long as periodic influxes of new blood are able to preserve a reasonable degree of genetic variety.  This was easier to do when there were more Valyrians around.

Hence, it may have been primarily in the generations since the doom, and/or their isolation on Dragonstone, that the Targaryens had been "wedding brother to sister for generations".

The Targ family tree since the Targs fled to Dragonstone shows only 2 successive generations of sibling incest (which I would guess GRRM estimates is the most they can plausibly get away with without absolute disaster).  Aegon and his sisters, the talented trio who founded the Targ dynasty, were themselves the products of outbreeding (their mother being a Velaryon).

 

[divica]

By the way, I just had a question.

If quentin is alive what is he doing?

Given the situation, the most probable scenario is that he is a hostage no?

So what would people kidnap quentin for?

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, divica said:

By the way, I just had a question.

If quentin is alive what is he doing?

Given the situation, the most probable scenario is that he is a hostage no?

So what would people kidnap quentin for?

I’m not  supporter of the theory Quentyn lives, but most iterations of that theory he actually takes a dragon and has become a dragon rider. Not applicable for this theory of course as that would be “Aegon” who is the dragonrider, or was crisped

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I’m not  supporter of the theory Quentyn lives, but most iterations of that theory he actually takes a dragon and has become a dragon rider. Not applicable for this theory of course as that would be “Aegon” who is the dragonrider, or was crisped

I think the most interesting possibility is that Quentyn's consciousness has been transferred into one of Dany's dragons.  The Frog Prince tale is the clue in my opinion.

Quote

“Dany laughed.
The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. “Radiance?” said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. “Why do you laugh?”
“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

Of course as it turns out, Quentyn didn't come to Dorne for Dany, he came to Dorne for dragons, 

Quote

“The old knight had heard enough. “What Prince Quentyn did he did for Dorne. Do you take me for some doting grandfather? I have spent my life around kings and queens and princes. Sunspear means to take up arms against the Iron Throne. No, do not trouble to deny it. Doran Martell is not a man to call his spears without hope of victory. Duty brought Prince Quentyn here. Duty, honor, thirst for glory … never love. Quentyn was here for dragons, not Daenerys.”

So perhaps Barristan is right yet also wrong.  Quentyn did go there for love, the love of dragons.  So did in fact Quentyn get kissed by his true love?  A kiss of fire perhaps:

Quote

Two eyes rose up before him.
Bronze, they were, brighter than polished shields, glowing with their own heat, burning behind a veil of smoke rising from the dragon’s nostrils. The light of Quentyn’s torch washed over scales of dark green, the green of moss in the deep woods at dusk, just before the last light fades. Then the dragon opened its mouth, and light and heat washed over them. Behind a fence of sharp black teeth he glimpsed the furnace glow, the shimmer of a sleeping fire a hundred times brighter than his torch. The dragon’s head was larger than a horse’s, and the neck stretched on and on, uncoiling like some great green serpent as the head rose, until those two glowing bronze eyes were staring down at him.
Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. “Rhaegal,” he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again. “The food,” he croaked, remembering. “Bring the food.”

Quote

“And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”
Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.
When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.”

Did this start the process of Quentyn's consciousness transferring into one of the dragons?  As Quentyn lay on his death bed, being attended by the scribe Missendei,(the scribe who could hear the dragons scratching in the walls of their cell when no one else could)  was he learning how to open his third eye, like Bran did while he lay on his death bed?

Here is the question is, if Quentyn is Aegon and Aegon is the Prince that Was Promised, what makes the Prince so special?

Aemon muses that they have been trying to figure out the Prince that Was Promised prophecy for the last thousand years.

Quote

“What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.”

The prince that was promised couldn't simply be a dragon rider, because there had been plenty of dragon riders for the last thousand years. But as far as we know, there has never been anyone who's consciousness has been transferred into a dragon, in a manner similar to the skinchangers of Westeros.  Is this why Aemon is equating the prince that was promised with Septon Barth's theory about actual dragons?

Is the riddle a Valyrian sphinx?

Quote

“He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.”

Quote

“The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face.
“A dragon queen,” said Tyrion. “A pleasant omen.”
“Her king is missing.”

In other words, the body of a dragon, and the face/head of a human.

Is that what the Targaryen obsession was really all about?  Were they obsessed with transferring their consciousness into a dragon?

Quote

“The very one, though he named himself Aerion Brightflame. One night, in his cups, he drank a jar of wildfire, after telling his friends it would transform him into a dragon, but the gods were kind and it transformed him into a corpse.”

Quote

“The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.”

Now compare this to Dany's dragon dream before she created the funeral pyre that would lead to the hatching of her dragons:

Quote

“Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
“… wake the dragon …”

I wonder if Dany was meant to be consumed in her funeral pyre, and her consciousness transferred into one of her dragon hatchlings.  Perhaps Mirri's spell she sang as she was tied on the pyre, prevented this.  

So could Quentyn be Aegon, and could Aegon by the Prince that was Promised (or one of the Princes that was Promised, after all the dragon has three heads)?

Quote

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

Quote

“Gerris chuckled. “Dragons are not made of wood, Arch.”
“Some are. That old King Aegon, the randy one, he built wooden dragons to conquer us. That ended bad, though.”
So may this, the prince thought. The follies and failures of Aegon the Unworthy did not concern him, but he was full of doubts and misgivings. The labored banter of his friends was only making his head ache. They do not understand. They may be Dornish, but I am Dorne. Years from now, when I am dead, this will be the song they sing of me. He rose abruptly. “It’s time.”

 

[BlueNightzx]

Mummers dragon

he is a Blackfyre, no way the golden company would pledge to some targaryen wanna be princeling, like viserys tried

Most likely the descendant of the daughter of Jaeheris who became a lyseni courtesan

[divica]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I’m not  supporter of the theory Quentyn lives, but most iterations of that theory he actually takes a dragon and has become a dragon rider. Not applicable for this theory of course as that would be “Aegon” who is the dragonrider, or was crisped

That is what I don t understand.

Even if he didn t die he just got burned. Therefore he probably got knocked out due to pain.

So the dudes that were trying to help him steal a dragon just got their plan ruined and would have to settle for the secpnd best thing.

And quentin has value! Either as a ransom from dorne or to make his friends work for someone. As I don t really remember quentins last chapter I was rather interested to know the possibilities.

[Clegane'sPup]

Strangely, the preview WoW chapters dunna mention Quent. They do however mention the green beast flapping round. Even the white dragon is being gawked at.

Due to the idea that this is a preview chapter and shyte may change in the eventual forth coming  WoW book ---- Quent got toasted  --- and ole Quentie boyo somehow managed via martin to let dem dragons outta the bowels of the pyramid.

The Winds of Winter - Tyrion I   The green beast was circling above the bay, banking and turning as longships and galleys clashed and burned below him, but it was the white dragon the sellswords were gawking at. Three hundred yards away the Wicked Sister swung her arm, <i>chunk-THUMP,</i> and six fresh corpses went dancing through the sky. Up they rose, and up, and up. Then two burst into flame.

The dragon caught one burning body just as it began to fall, crunching it between his jaws as pale fires ran across his teeth. White wings cracked against the morning air, and the beast began to climb again. The second corpse caromed off an outstretched claw and plunged straight down, to land amongst some Yunkish horsemen. Some of them caught fire too. One horse reared up and threw his rider. The others ran, trying to outrace the flames and fanning them instead. Tyrion Lannister could almost taste the panic as it rippled out across the camps.    The sharp, familiar scent of urine filled the air. The dwarf glanced about and was relieved to see that it was Inkpots who had pissed himself, not him. "You had best go change your breeches," Tyrion told him. "And whilst you are about it, turn your cloak." The paymaster blanched but did not move.

 

Soooooooooo, what I got going ^ above on is after Dany went to stand by her dragon (cliffhanger) and probably after Jon never felt the forth knife (cliffhanger).

 

Merry whatever holiday you celebrate. AND during the upcoming  new year be kind -- iffin ya canna be kind at least beat an asshole -- and empower a person to say frek you.

[Platypus Rex]

12 hours ago, divica said:

"If quentin is alive what is he doing?"

Hanging out with his new buddy Viserion in Viserion's new lair, a (now) abandoned, but no-doubt still fully-stocked, pyramid.  He's probably having an easier time of things than Dany.

"So what would people kidnap quentin for?"

People probably wouldn't, but Viserion might make off with him, in much the same way that Drogon made off with Dany.

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, BlueNightzx said:

he is a Blackfyre, no way the golden company would pledge to some targaryen wanna be princeling, like viserys tried

The theories are not necessarily incompatible.  If he is a Blackfyre, he might be a Blackfyre by way of his maternal grandmother, the last (female) Blackfyre, who (let us guess) perhaps married into Norvosi nobility, and gave birth to Mellario of Norvos.

Under that notion, FAegon (born as Quentyn Martell) would not be the only Blackfyre.  Arianne would also be a Blackfyre, and so would be Trystane.

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, divica said:

"Even if he didn t die he just got burned. Therefore he probably got knocked out due to pain."

Not necessarily.   Dany did not get knocked out due to pain, when she faced Drogon's "furnace wind" and then "was burning".

"So the dudes that were trying to help him steal a dragon just got their plan ruined and would have to settle for the second best thing."

The second best thing, in this context, is running away.  When two of your number have just gotten killed by dragons, in the most horrible way possible, it is …. just not the time.  For all we know, they may not even have escaped unscathed.

They left two of their own behind.  Why would they stop to pick up Quentyn?

 

[Platypus Rex]

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Strangely, the preview WoW chapters dunna mention Quent. They do however mention the green beast flapping round. Even the white dragon is being gawked at.

The white dragon (Viserion) disappears from the sky for a while.  Then Tyrion goes into his tent for a while.  Then some officer rides up swearing vengeance against Tatters for some reason or another.

What has happened?

We don't know, but under the theory, perhaps what has happened is that Quentyn (who has the same build as Tatters) appears in the sky riding Viserion, wearing the signature tattered cloak, and signals the Windblown to switch sides.  The real Tatters, of course, has been missing since the raid, and (unbeknownst to the Windblown) died on Dany's bed.

We know Arch had SOME secret plan, that he was unwilling to discuss in front of Barristan.  Maybe this was it.

[Ser Leftwich]

Towards the end of Feast, Ser Andrey Dalt is sent (exiled) to serve Mellario in Norvos and Arianne thinks to send a message to her mother there. Implies that Arianne has been in contact with her before or even visited her and that there is someone in Norvos for Dalt to serve. Otherwise, if Doran wants to keep it secret that Mellario is not there, why send Dalt. It makes no sense.

So is there a fake Mellario in Norvos taking her place or sending messages on to "Lemore?" Even more outlandish.

The whole thing seems wildly improbable.

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

Towards the end of Feast, Ser Andrey Dalt is sent (exiled) to serve Mellario in Norvos and Arianne thinks to send a message to her mother there. Implies that Arianne has been in contact with her before or even visited her and that there is someone in Norvos for Dalt to serve. Otherwise, if Doran wants to keep it secret that Mellario is not there, why send Dalt. It makes no sense.

We don't know where Doran sent Dalt; only where he told Arianne he sent Dalt.  In case you missed it, Doran conceals, and if necessary LIES about his various secrets.

One possibility (though not the only one) is that Dalt is Doran's spy.  And Doran told this tale of his punishment, in order to preserve his usefulness against Arianne in future.  Remember, we still don't know who it was who betrayed her.  It may have been Dalt.

But even that is not necessary.  Doran locked Arianne up and eventually let her out.  He did the same to Dalt (or says he did).  Then he sent Arianne somewhere to do something.  He did the same with Dalt.  Do you think he necessarily told Dalt what Arianne's mission was?   Then why would he tell Arianne what Dalt's mission was?  A cautious man dispenses his secrets only on a need-to-know basis. 

On the other hand, maybe he did send Dalt to Norvos.  And maybe someone is indeed present to receive him there.  Give the man credit for a little guile and foresight.  Even if the person receiving Dalt turns out not to be Mellario, Dalt is 1000 miles away, probably under instructions of secrecy from Doran, and, even if he disobeys those instruction, it will take some time for the information to trickle back from 1000 miles away.  And if it turns out Mellario is not in Norvos when Dalt arrives, will that really be impossible for Doran or Mellario to explain away? 

Mellario is a noblewoman.  Even if she is not present in Norvos, she no doubt has servants and other allies who can take care of her guests until (and if) she returns.

I assume Arianne and her mother know each other.  I'm aware of no evidence that Arianne has ever visited her mother in Norvos.  Of course, nothing prevents this either.  Because nothing requires Mellario to be with Young Griff 100% of the time; and moreover, nothing prevents Young Griff from visiting Norvos now and then.  A little coordination is all that is necessary.

Or maybe Doran decided Dalt knew too much, and left orders to have him thrown into the sea, after the ship left port.  And of course, he does not tell Arianne this, because he needs her loyalty.  Nor is she likely to ever find out.  Accidents can happen on long journeys, and people can go missing never to be seen again.

I could probably go on.  There are so many ways around this objection, it's hard to know where to start.  Even if Doran was TRYING to tell Arianne the truth (and there is no reason to suppose he was) it is impossible for anyone in a medieval world to know exactly where another person is when that person is 1000+ miles away.  What does Doran use?  Satellite tracking?

So, no, nothing requires another person to be impersonating Mellario in Norvos.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 12/21/2018 at 7:22 PM, Platypus Rex said:

The white dragon (Viserion) disappears from the sky for a while.  Then Tyrion goes into his tent for a while.  Then some officer rides up swearing vengeance against Tatters for some reason or another.

That has nothing to do with whether Quent got roasted, toasted or charred or whether Quent was the body lying in the bed.

[Nevets]

So, Doran does a swap because his wife throws a fit about his being fostered?  Somehow, I doubt that Doran is the type to care much about that kind of thing.

And how did he get this substitute anyway?  How did he get away from KL and into the hands of Doran? And he's been hanging around for 3 years and nobody notices his sudden absence?

By the way, given Martin's penchant for dropping subtle clues,,if Mellario's appearance mattered to the story, I would have expected it to have been mentioned by now.  Given that it hasn't, I see no reason to believe that she would have been able to pass on (non-existent) Targ features to her son.

This theory makes little to no sense, and certainly a lot less sense than Quentyn being exactly who he appears to be.  Nothing I have seen gives me any reason to doubt his identity.  

Ii remain agnostic on whether Aegon is real or fake, but I have my doubts. In any event, I doubt that it will ultimately matter