Jump to content

[Spoilers] Oakenfist vs. The Red Kraken! Who would have won?


Corvinus85

Recommended Posts

One of the great naval conflicts than never took place. But it almost did. Who would have won if Dalton hadn't gotten assassinated.

Dalton had a large number of longships, and his men have been having their way with the Westerlands for a good while. Sacking Lannisport, conquering Fair Isle, raiding every town and castle too close to the sea. There's certainly experience there.

But when it comes to large scale naval engagements, Alyn had the experience of fighting and beating the Braavosi, and he would have had larger vessels; war galleys, dromons, maybe even cogs and holks outfitted for war. He had the Velaryon fleet, largely intact despite the difficult passage through the Stepstones and the Dornish coast + a contingent of Oldtown ships. However, Lord Redwyne was 'having trouble' getting his ships to join up. (Not sure if it was on purpose, another lord like Danel Hightower or Walder Frey, too cautious for anyone's good)

Dalton had plenty of time to prepare, and we see he had divided his fleet at several strategic locations. Alyn would also have had plenty of time to think on how to approach this fight, but he would have been greatly dependent on intelligence provided by the locals. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/15/2018 at 7:08 AM, M.Alhazred said:

Dalton would take the Iron Fleet the last places they would be expected.Hitting various other seaside towns and castles until Oakenfist is under so much pressure that the king fires him.

I don't think that would happen because he's not there to do a good job. The Hand of the king send him hoping he would lose or at least fix a problem if he won. Since the Hand thought Oakenfist was a rival he likely wouldn't want him to return nor would he want to keep Oakenfist from a fight that could be fatal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While we don't really know enough about Dalton to fairly judge, in a hypothetica "best version of Dalton VS best version of Alyn" situation, I'd say Oakenfist, for now.

Naval Battle

Dalton, while no doubt a fantastic captain of raiders, reavers and rascals, doesn't seem have as much experience commanding larger fleets. Velaryon, meanwhile, has much experience battling pirates and vagabonds in the Stepstones, which one would imagine could be good transferable experience when fighting a fleet of Iron Islanders.

Depending on the time of the hypothetical battle and ages of the combatants, there's always a chance that Alyn was actually a better sailor than Dalton. Consider Lord Oakenfist's six great voyages. I imagine these journeys would have hardened his nautical abilities, perhaps exposing him to harder weather and seas than anything Greyjoy had experienced. Then again, the Kraken had sailed as far Ghis by the time he was in his early teens, so perhaps his own journeys were more hazardous/character building.

One should also consider the mental conditioning of both combatants. Dalton must have seen some horrible sights in his time, and judging by his IB nature and the stories told of his time, he sounds like he would be extremely well versed in the violence and depravity of war. We don't really know too much else about his character, but it would be interesting to think how his experience and mindset would compete with Alyn's.

A survivor of the Dance, the Master of the Tides had also been "in the shit" from a young age. His brother dying, along with half the realm would have been a nightmare to deal with. While the civil war itself certainly hardened the lad into a formidable opponent, I reckon the fact he was able to come away from a dragon attack alive would have also had much to do with his obviously rock hard sense of ambition/determination. 

Mentored by the Seasnake, himself oft regarded as the greatest seafarer in history, Alyn Velaryon would also have been exposed to a more varied nautical education than the Red Kraken. 

Single Combat

Red Kraken, for me.

Dalton wielded Nightfall, a Valyrian sword, and would probably have had more experience fighting duels than Alyn, as the nature of the Iron Born raiders usually involves coming ashore/boarding an enemy ship and getting into the thick of the action. No doubt Velaryon would have had his fair share of one on ones, but I think his position as Master of Ship and Lord of Dragonstone would have meant he would have fought smart more often than not and let his men do the sword stuff.

Also, consider Alyn's bastard upbringing. I'd imagine he would have been exposed to far inferior early combat training than the Red Kraken, who was fighting and training with seasoned killers from a younger age, and it's not likely that Alyn's mother Mouse would have had a top quality Master of Arms training the youth, in the Shipyards of Hull.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In hand to hand combat, I think the Red Kraken wins. I don't remember any chance were Oakenfist fought in person. He was a naval commander, not a warrior.

Lord Alyn had more experience in sea battles, AFAIK.  Many sea battles in the middle and ancient ages were won by having better troops on ships, more than nautical skill. Having knights and crossbowmen on board, bigger ships and veterans like Leo Costayne, Oakenfist would make the Red Kraken visit the Watery Halls sooner than he thought!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/20/2019 at 4:35 PM, the Last Teague said:

In hand to hand combat, I think the Red Kraken wins. I don't remember any chance were Oakenfist fought in person. He was a naval commander, not a warrior.

Lord Alyn had more experience in sea battles, AFAIK.  Many sea battles in the middle and ancient ages were won by having better troops on ships, more than nautical skill. Having knights and crossbowmen on board, bigger ships and veterans like Leo Costayne, Oakenfist would make the Red Kraken visit the Watery Halls sooner than he thought!

I agree about Alyn's experience. I doubt it would ever come to one on one combat between them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I've the impression Leo Costayne was the reason the Red Kraken didn't attack the Reach or the Arbor during the Dance. Dalton could flaunt a lot about his "deeds" (if sacking undefended villages is a deed) but never had to meet a real enemy at sea. 

Probably Sea Lion had kept at bay the ironborn. Nevertheless, the Redwyne fleet (if there really that force existed back then) remained at the Whispering Sound to prevent any attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

While Alyn was undoubtedly a great seafarer and seemed to be a charming leader, I have some doubts about his prowess as a naval commander, particularly at this point. His reputation is built mostly on his great victory in the Stepstones, but that was down to take the Braavosi by surprise. He's clearly a bold leader, but there are signs (like how he handled the aftermath of defeating the Braavosi or the prudence of attacking them in the first place) that he may have lacked some of the subtle strategic thinking that it would have taken to win this fight. He wasn't taking the Ironborn by surprise, so the prudent thing would have been to continue waiting for the Redwyne fleets. I think he was overly bold and got lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

While Alyn was undoubtedly a great seafarer and seemed to be a charming leader, I have some doubts about his prowess as a naval commander, particularly at this point. His reputation is built mostly on his great victory in the Stepstones, but that was down to take the Braavosi by surprise. He's clearly a bold leader, but there are signs (like how he handled the aftermath of defeating the Braavosi or the prudence of attacking them in the first place) that he may have lacked some of the subtle strategic thinking that it would have taken to win this fight. He wasn't taking the Ironborn by surprise, so the prudent thing would have been to continue waiting for the Redwyne fleets. I think he was overly bold and got lucky.

Being able to surprise a foe is a trait of the best commanders. Remember the Young Wolf. 

Oaekenfist is a sailor, not a diplomatic or a trader. 

The krakens were expecting him, yes, but Alyn had better ships and probably superior numbers. Also Dalton has to divide his men to keep his conquests. 

Greyjoys are reavers and sackers. But kidnapping a girl and ramming a galley are completly different things. Dalton had never fought a sea battle. Just individual one ship vs one ship combats.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Dalton had never fought a sea battle. Just individual one ship vs one ship combats. 

Why do you say that? Certainly, he had fought at least one sea battle. How did he come to control Fair Isle? And he had sacked Lannisport before that. The Lannisters don't have as large a fleet as the Redwynes or the Velaryons, but they certainly have more than one ship.

And I think that it's safe to assume that he had fought many sea battles in his travels. He was a seasoned naval campaigner by that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...