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Corvinus

[Spoilers] Oakenfist vs. The Red Kraken! Who would have won?

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One of the great naval conflicts than never took place. But it almost did. Who would have won if Dalton hadn't gotten assassinated.

Dalton had a large number of longships, and his men have been having their way with the Westerlands for a good while. Sacking Lannisport, conquering Fair Isle, raiding every town and castle too close to the sea. There's certainly experience there.

But when it comes to large scale naval engagements, Alyn had the experience of fighting and beating the Braavosi, and he would have had larger vessels; war galleys, dromons, maybe even cogs and holks outfitted for war. He had the Velaryon fleet, largely intact despite the difficult passage through the Stepstones and the Dornish coast + a contingent of Oldtown ships. However, Lord Redwyne was 'having trouble' getting his ships to join up. (Not sure if it was on purpose, another lord like Danel Hightower or Walder Frey, too cautious for anyone's good)

Dalton had plenty of time to prepare, and we see he had divided his fleet at several strategic locations. Alyn would also have had plenty of time to think on how to approach this fight, but he would have been greatly dependent on intelligence provided by the locals. 

Edited by Corvinus

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Difficult to say. Considering they were both still youths chances are not that bad that they would have both fucked things up, killing each other in the process ;-).

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Dalton would take the Iron Fleet the last places they would be expected.Hitting various other seaside towns and castles until Oakenfist is under so much pressure that the king fires him.

Edited by M.Alhazred

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Tiny margins either way. The fight would have gone to whoever had the wind or something like that and it would have been pyrrhic for whoever came out on top.

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On 12/15/2018 at 7:08 AM, M.Alhazred said:

Dalton would take the Iron Fleet the last places they would be expected.Hitting various other seaside towns and castles until Oakenfist is under so much pressure that the king fires him.

I don't think that would happen because he's not there to do a good job. The Hand of the king send him hoping he would lose or at least fix a problem if he won. Since the Hand thought Oakenfist was a rival he likely wouldn't want him to return nor would he want to keep Oakenfist from a fight that could be fatal. 

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That would be a fair contest. Both have seasoned fleets. The Red Kraken had no experience as commander (he was a pirate and plunderer, never won any big battle), but Oaekenfist is young. I think the royal fleet has bigger ships, but ironborn are veteran sailors. So I don't have a clear answer.

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While we don't really know enough about Dalton to fairly judge, in a hypothetica "best version of Dalton VS best version of Alyn" situation, I'd say Oakenfist, for now.

Naval Battle

Dalton, while no doubt a fantastic captain of raiders, reavers and rascals, doesn't seem have as much experience commanding larger fleets. Velaryon, meanwhile, has much experience battling pirates and vagabonds in the Stepstones, which one would imagine could be good transferable experience when fighting a fleet of Iron Islanders.

Depending on the time of the hypothetical battle and ages of the combatants, there's always a chance that Alyn was actually a better sailor than Dalton. Consider Lord Oakenfist's six great voyages. I imagine these journeys would have hardened his nautical abilities, perhaps exposing him to harder weather and seas than anything Greyjoy had experienced. Then again, the Kraken had sailed as far Ghis by the time he was in his early teens, so perhaps his own journeys were more hazardous/character building.

One should also consider the mental conditioning of both combatants. Dalton must have seen some horrible sights in his time, and judging by his IB nature and the stories told of his time, he sounds like he would be extremely well versed in the violence and depravity of war. We don't really know too much else about his character, but it would be interesting to think how his experience and mindset would compete with Alyn's.

A survivor of the Dance, the Master of the Tides had also been "in the shit" from a young age. His brother dying, along with half the realm would have been a nightmare to deal with. While the civil war itself certainly hardened the lad into a formidable opponent, I reckon the fact he was able to come away from a dragon attack alive would have also had much to do with his obviously rock hard sense of ambition/determination. 

Mentored by the Seasnake, himself oft regarded as the greatest seafarer in history, Alyn Velaryon would also have been exposed to a more varied nautical education than the Red Kraken. 

Single Combat

Red Kraken, for me.

Dalton wielded Nightfall, a Valyrian sword, and would probably have had more experience fighting duels than Alyn, as the nature of the Iron Born raiders usually involves coming ashore/boarding an enemy ship and getting into the thick of the action. No doubt Velaryon would have had his fair share of one on ones, but I think his position as Master of Ship and Lord of Dragonstone would have meant he would have fought smart more often than not and let his men do the sword stuff.

Also, consider Alyn's bastard upbringing. I'd imagine he would have been exposed to far inferior early combat training than the Red Kraken, who was fighting and training with seasoned killers from a younger age, and it's not likely that Alyn's mother Mouse would have had a top quality Master of Arms training the youth, in the Shipyards of Hull.

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In hand to hand combat, I think the Red Kraken wins. I don't remember any chance were Oakenfist fought in person. He was a naval commander, not a warrior.

Lord Alyn had more experience in sea battles, AFAIK.  Many sea battles in the middle and ancient ages were won by having better troops on ships, more than nautical skill. Having knights and crossbowmen on board, bigger ships and veterans like Leo Costayne, Oakenfist would make the Red Kraken visit the Watery Halls sooner than he thought!

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:35 PM, the Last Teague said:

In hand to hand combat, I think the Red Kraken wins. I don't remember any chance were Oakenfist fought in person. He was a naval commander, not a warrior.

Lord Alyn had more experience in sea battles, AFAIK.  Many sea battles in the middle and ancient ages were won by having better troops on ships, more than nautical skill. Having knights and crossbowmen on board, bigger ships and veterans like Leo Costayne, Oakenfist would make the Red Kraken visit the Watery Halls sooner than he thought!

I agree about Alyn's experience. I doubt it would ever come to one on one combat between them.

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I've the impression Leo Costayne was the reason the Red Kraken didn't attack the Reach or the Arbor during the Dance. Dalton could flaunt a lot about his "deeds" (if sacking undefended villages is a deed) but never had to meet a real enemy at sea. 

Probably Sea Lion had kept at bay the ironborn. Nevertheless, the Redwyne fleet (if there really that force existed back then) remained at the Whispering Sound to prevent any attack.

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