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What Daenerys are we going to see in Season 8?

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Whether you see Daenys as a hero, villain, antihero, or antivillian it should be very interesting to see what Daenery's character arc evolves into in season 8. I think most fans would tend to agree that she has displayed, for the most part, a split/gray personality with egalitarian Protector of the Seven Kingdoms beliefs/behaviors (admittedly you can debate what she means by "breaking the wheel") with episodes of ruthless Khaleesi beliefs/behaviors centered around a philosphy that to obtain and sustain power/control you need to instill terror/fear in your subjects and kill/show no mercy to your enemies (as evidenced in her discussion with Olenna Tyrell). So will we see just a similar dual pattern continue in Season 8?; will she go totally Khaleesi rogue?; or will we see her disavow her Khaleesi beliefs/behaviors and become a complete hero to the people of Westeros?

I have tried to maintain an objective position regarding Daenerys (although I do admit that I do have my own preferences for her future). But I really would be OK with any outcome as long as the script is well written, makes at least some reasonable sense, and is not totally bizarre. Although others will probably disagree with me, I began to see some things in S7 E6&7 that I feel might point to some minor dents beginning to emerge in Danerys' rigid defenses that support her Khaleesi beliefs/behaviors. First of all was the death of Viserion, resulting in feelings of grief/loss, and perhaps as a result of her experiencing these feelings she is beginning to see that she is not as invulnerable/invincible as she has always perceived herself as being (perhaps a little ego deflation). She also appears to be experiencing some genuine feelings of love for Jon, which may begin to temper the underlying feelings of rage and guilt I believe she has repressed regarding the death of Drogo and her first child. Thirdly I find it interesting that after Jon bent his knee to her she asked him if he felt the Lords of the North would support her. He said he felt they would once they got to know her the way he did. Daenerys then responded "I hope I deserve it". I think this is an amazing comment to hear come out of Daenerys' mouth. Up to this time I don't believe that Daenerys has ever expressed any concern about what others thought of her quest for power, she just focused on her belief that by virtue of who she was that she deserved the Iron Throne. She also appears to be deferring to Jon on many decisions (and in the dragonpit she even expressed to Jon that she should have trusted him in the first place), The EW cover, IMHO, tends to portray her in the somewhat stereotypical position of a women clinging to a dominant male for protection (which is understandable considering she will probably be pregnant in season 8). Now admittedly these are minor possible signs of her mellowing a bit, but perhaps they are a potential start. But I do have to admit I am not very hopeful of these things having any lasting or progressive effects. Perhaps these things are all just red herrings issues.

In all probability it is likely that we shall get a sense in what direction Daenerys is going to go when when Jon's true heritage is revealed. It would be natural for Daenerys to initially react to this with suspicion, disappointment, and anger but once she realizes it is true she will have a decision to make. From a political and even personal (love and probable pregnancy) perspective, if her primary goals are to break the wheel and restore Targaryen rule, then she has a major opportunity to do so by marrying Jon, have them share the crown, and destroy the NK and Cersei. Perhaps, once all the battles are over, they could decide to abolish the dictatorial monarchy (the root of most all the political power conflicts/many wars in the first place) and allow Westeros to formulate a different form of government without one absolute ruler. Some people are of the perspective that the show has been moving more towards a more "Tolkienish" form of ending. This might involve Daenerys/Jon and their child or children (or whatever combo of these individuals that survive the wars) leaving Westeros proper and returning to Dragonstone, which many years ago was the westernmost extension of the now defunct Valyrian Empire, to live out their lives. Thats where the Targaryens came from in the first place. This would be consistent with the idea that Targaryian rule in Westeros began with an Aegon and will end with an Aegon.

If, on the other hand, her primary goal is to establish herself personally as an absolute ruler (with establishing the Targarian Dynasty just and "breaking the wheel" being just cover issues), we are probably going to see a different Daenery emerge and we will see her continue to pursue her past pattern of behavior (the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior) where, if she feels it is in her own personal strategic interests or when she becomes extremely angry, she will resort to her Khaleesi burn behaviors (I am not referring to utilizing these behaviors when fighting the NK/WW's, which would seem appropriate). Perhaps she, not the NK or something else, will be the one burning KL to the ground (perhaps she is deceived by Tyrion into thinking this is the right course of action to take; maybe she will just "lose it" after the birth of her child [post-partum reaction]; or the behavior will be triggered by something else). Ultimately this action might lead to her demise in some fashion. I do hope she survives but am not overly hopeful of this (due to some show foreshadowings over the seasons and comments made by Emilia regarding Daenerys' last scene in the show). But maybe if she does die she at least might end up with Drogo and her first child waiting for her in the Nights Land (which might be a somewhat confusing type of ending for some people). At least, in a manner of speaking, she would be with the ones she loved in the past and, additionally, would leave a living legacy in the form of her child (children) with Jon. This would obviously be a more "bittersweet" ending than the previous paragraph.

I (and others as well) tend to believe that an underlying theme for Daenerys is that she has unconsciously been searching for a “home” and that she has misperceived this as being a Kingdom where she has power/control. Perhaps she will ultimately realize that a “home” is not really a logistical place (she didn't even really feel completely “at home” once she got to Dragonstone) or power/control but rather is really developing gratifying intimate loving feelings centering around a family life with Jon and their child (children). Maybe this realization will in the end, coupled with all the death and destruction likely to be seen in season 8, result in her giving up her obsession for the throne and turning over control of Westeros to the people. This certainly would be a surprising and unexpected ending for many fans. Just one idea.

Obviously there are a number of other possibilities as well. So it should be very interesting to see which Daenerys we will get in Season 8.

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I would bet you are going to see the same Daenerys we have seen throughout the story. 

She is always someone who takes her responsibilities seriously, who cares about the greater good, has a wide circle of empathy but is also very ruthless and capable of extreme cruelty to those she deems her enemies. If anything, you could argue the events of Season 7 argue for even greater ruthlessness as the decision to not depose Cersei quickly is going to bite them in the ass. 

As for how her story will end, tough to say. But it is worth bearing in mind that Westeros is not like our world. You don’t get to create a home someplace for yourself with your family when you have such a politically dangerous last name. Also, people don’t really have careers where they can make good money and support themselves. People generally speaking are either landed aristocrats or peasants. There is some trade you can get into, but what does Daenerys really know about that?

Part of the reason why Daenerys had to take the throne is because she did not have the option of going back to Westeros the place where she was born any other way. And there was always the chance had she decided to just live her life in Essos she would be the target of assasination attempts because of her last name. 

So while the idea of her deciding home is not a place but rather something you create with someone you love is a nice one that is pleasing to modern sensibilities, not sure that is really an option when your name is Daenerys Targaryen, you live in Planetos and you already have lots of enemies and lots of people who would always see you as a threat and the best source of income is to be a lord. 

Edited by jcmontea

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I admit that my perspective about “home” is romanticized but IMHO the show is beginning to move in this direction (as far as Daenerys is concerned - based upon some of the things I mentioned in my first post) and in spite of the carnage we will see in Season 8 I still believe that a gratifying home is what she is searching for. Even in the times of the story one does need to deal with the realities of living/surviving. Dealing with economic issues has never been a strong point of the show (so I doubt it will become a detailed issue with specifics in the End Game-other than generally indicating Westeros will have to be rebuilt). Once the war is over the direct threats to Daenerys' personally in Westeros are probably minimal (and there has never been any evidence of anyone coming to Westeros from Essos to try to kill her). Even if she sits on the Iron Throne her ability to be a ruler has never been very good and did not appear, IMHO, to have made her feel very happy. GRRM even was quoted in a recent interview regarding his new book Fire and Blood that Daenerys using her dragons may give her the ability to conquer/destroy but not necessarily to rule. I am not saying material things (money, status, etc.) are totally insignificant, and certainly can be necessary/gratifying in their own sense, but are not the same as the feelings one derives from a home with a family. Over the last several months I have had the chance to review all the TV show episodes. While admittedly Daenerys has always had an obsession to rule IMHO her Kahleesi beliefs/behaviors became firmly entrenched and subsequently manifested themselves following the death of Drogo with the loss of her first child. Her first attempt at finding a gratifying family/home for herself ended in disaster. I still believe this is a major issue she is unconsciously searching for. I believe this is one of the major underlying themes in the show (I'm not saying it is the only issue-there are many others). We shall see.

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2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I admit that my perspective about “home” is romanticized but IMHO the show is beginning to move in this direction (as far as Daenerys is concerned - based upon some of the things I mentioned in my first post) and in spite of the carnage we will see in Season 8 I still believe that a gratifying home is what she is searching for. Even in the times of the story one does need to deal with the realities of living/surviving. Dealing with economic issues has never been a strong point of the show (so I doubt it will become a detailed issue with specifics in the End Game-other than generally indicating Westeros will have to be rebuilt). Once the war is over the direct threats to Daenerys' personally in Westeros are probably minimal (and there has never been any evidence of anyone coming to Westeros from Essos to try to kill her). Even if she sits on the Iron Throne her ability to be a ruler has never been very good and did not appear, IMHO, to have made her feel very happy. GRRM even was quoted in a recent interview regarding his new book Fire and Blood that Daenerys using her dragons may give her the ability to conquer/destroy but not necessarily to rule. I am not saying material things (money, status, etc.) are totally insignificant, and certainly can be necessary/gratifying in their own sense, but are not the same as the feelings one derives from a home with a family. Over the last several months I have had the chance to review all the TV show episodes. While admittedly Daenerys has always had an obsession to rule IMHO her Kahleesi beliefs/behaviors became firmly entrenched and subsequently manifested themselves following the death of Drogo with the loss of her first child. Her first attempt at finding a gratifying family/home for herself ended in disaster. I still believe this is a major issue she is unconsciously searching for. I believe this is one of the major underlying themes in the show (I'm not saying it is the only issue-there are many others). We shall see.

In the Inside the Episode to 101 they talk about how she looks out into the ocean and imagines Westeros the home she never knew. In the Inside the Episode to 104 D&D say that Dany begins to think of herself as the heir as she realizes that Viserys will never get the job done. In 106 she demonstrates a remarkable capacity for ruthlessness as she writes off her brother as dead to her and watches him die. And in 107 she was trying to get Drogo to cross the narrow sea to win back the throne. 

So what exactly do you mean when you say her khalissi beliefs begin manifesting themselves after she loses Drogo and her child? 

I do agree that she is searching for home and that could end up being a family. But what you are suggesting feels very romanticezed and just not clear that is the type of thing this story would provide or is even realistic for the world. 

Edited by jcmontea

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I hope she'll finish up like Walter White.

She begins as an immensely sympathetic heroine, and ends as  ……… the Devil. 

Edited by SeanF

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I hope she'll finish up like Walter White.

She begins as an immensely sympathetic heroine, and ends as  ……… the Devil. 

If Dany ends up like Walter White and if that is GRMM's intention all along it means that he came up with that scenario even before Vince Gilligan was writing for the X-Files. 

And I kinda like the idea that GRMM was developing the protagonist (Jon) and the antagonist (Dany) and getting in their heads at the same time if that is his intention.

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:41 PM, goldenmaps said:

If Dany ends up like Walter White and if that is GRMM's intention all along it means that he came up with that scenario even before Vince Gilligan was writing for the X-Files. 

And I kinda like the idea that GRMM was developing the protagonist (Jon) and the antagonist (Dany) and getting in their heads at the same time if that is his intention.

I'd say from about Season 4 onwards, she's gradually become more cold, more proud, more harsh in her dealings with people.  Slowly, but surely, she is transforming into a selfish tyrant.   I don't think she'd be like her father, burning people for fun.  Rather, she burns people in order to frighten them into submission.

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She has always been one of my favourite characters in the show. When you think about how she was dominated by Viserys in the first series, and then through her association with Khal Drogo, begins to develop in both confidence and an awareness of her past her journey has been impressive. I hear what people say about her having a ruthless streak, but isn't that the case with all leaders of that age? 

I was watching a really good documentary the other night set in the War of the Roses time, which obviously influenced George RR Martin for this. It was about the rule of Edward IV. The guy pointed out working with your enemies, reaching out to them only gets you so far. Sometimes they have to be ruthless, otherwise people will take advantage, of what they see as a weak leader. It seems sometimes she gets judged when other's who are also ruthless, never seen to get the same critisim. That's not to say she is right about everything, like all of the characters she has a darker side, but that is true of all these characters. 

I always regret how she never got to meet her last relative Maestor Aemon while he was serving on the wall. It strikes me as tragic that the only memory she has of her own family, was that louse of a brother Viserys. She also lost Ser Barriston Selmy at a crucial time as well, in a way it allows them to push her character but at the same time it makes her seem a little isolated. I suppose she is similar to Rhaegor more than Viserys, I always loved the scenes where others would tell her about her family. 

As far as the last series is concerned I don't have any good feelings about her journey through it. I don't think she will survive and I just hope if she does die, its for a better reason, rather than just becoming like the Mad King. That would disappoint me, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

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I feel that an interesting ending would be for Daenerys to die by some means and then be resurrected as one of the final displays of magic in the show. The death would result in her being exorcized from the ruthless merciless Khaleesi part of her personality, with this part of her spiritual being reunited with Drogo and their child as per her vision in S2. The “resurrected” Daenerys remaining would essentially display the egalitarian components of her personality and I would not be surprised if she even declines to accept the Iron Throne, but rather turns over the governing of Westeros to the Lords/people. This certainly would be a major twist for the show (if not the major twist) and I think her still being alive and declining the Throne would be a slightly more of a dramatic twist than if she was just not able to achieve it because she died. She and her child (with Jon if he survives) would then depart Westeros proper and reside in Dragonstone (the past westernmost component of the Valyrian Empire). Targaryen rule in Westeros began with an Aegon and end with an Aegon (whether you see this “Aegon” as being Jon or symbolically Daenerys, or possibly both).

In line with this idea the fate of the dragons would be that they all will have to die. GRRM has been quoted as saying that in his books he has made an effort to portray the dragons as destructive forces, and as such Daenerys could use them to conquer, but that this did not necessarily enable her to rule. Once the dragons are gone Daenerys would also lose her “specialness”, similar to what happened to the Targaryens in the past once their dragons no longer existed, and she will just become a “regular” person (albeit in a resurrected form – like Jon). I'm sure many fans will not be happy with this (recalling the internet clamor when Viserion was killed in season 7). But for Westeros to return to a semblance of balance, destabilizing and destructive forces (like the dragons) need to be eliminated.

It would seem to me that this type of ending would be satisfying (in varying degrees) to both Daenerys camps (pro and anti) as she would “survive” but be purged of her ruthless Khaleesi beliefs. This certainly would be a bittersweet ending for Daenerys personally. It also overall would be somewhat surprising, unexpected, and in fact confusing to many (we would see two apparent animate Daenerys' in the end-one with Drogo and one left in Westeros). I realize that the above is quite a stretch but I think it still is an interesting idea.

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2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I feel that an interesting ending would be for Daenerys to die by some means and then be resurrected as one of the final displays of magic in the show. The death would result in her being exorcized from the ruthless merciless Khaleesi part of her personality, with this part of her spiritual being reunited with Drogo and their child as per her vision in S2. The “resurrected” Daenerys remaining would essentially display the egalitarian components of her personality and I would not be surprised if she even declines to accept the Iron Throne, but rather turns over the governing of Westeros to the Lords/people. This certainly would be a major twist for the show (if not the major twist) and I think her still being alive and declining the Throne would be a slightly more of a dramatic twist than if she was just not able to achieve it because she died. She and her child (with Jon if he survives) would then depart Westeros proper and reside in Dragonstone (the past westernmost component of the Valyrian Empire). Targaryen rule in Westeros began with an Aegon and end with an Aegon (whether you see this “Aegon” as being Jon or symbolically Daenerys, or possibly both).

In line with this idea the fate of the dragons would be that they all will have to die. GRRM has been quoted as saying that in his books he has made an effort to portray the dragons as destructive forces, and as such Daenerys could use them to conquer, but that this did not necessarily enable her to rule. Once the dragons are gone Daenerys would also lose her “specialness”, similar to what happened to the Targaryens in the past once their dragons no longer existed, and she will just become a “regular” person (albeit in a resurrected form – like Jon). I'm sure many fans will not be happy with this (recalling the internet clamor when Viserion was killed in season 7). But for Westeros to return to a semblance of balance, destabilizing and destructive forces (like the dragons) need to be eliminated.

It would seem to me that this type of ending would be satisfying (in varying degrees) to both Daenerys camps (pro and anti) as she would “survive” but be purged of her ruthless Khaleesi beliefs. This certainly would be a bittersweet ending for Daenerys personally. It also overall would be somewhat surprising, unexpected, and in fact confusing to many (we would see two apparent animate Daenerys' in the end-one with Drogo and one left in Westeros). I realize that the above is quite a stretch but I think it still is an interesting idea.

Why are you trying to purge Daenerys of the key parts of her that make her interesting? 

Not sure I really get it. She is an interesting character and not just generic boring good guy previsely because she is a conqueror. 

She feels like a historical figure like the conquerors in our own history because she has those many layers. 

The story on multiple occassions suggests you need those ruthless elements if you are going to govern effectively since you must be feared. “The right kind of terrible”. 

 

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11 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Why are you trying to purge Daenerys of the key parts of her that make her interesting? 

Not sure I really get it. She is an interesting character and not just generic boring good guy previsely because she is a conqueror. 

She feels like a historical figure like the conquerors in our own history because she has those many layers. 

The story on multiple occassions suggests you need those ruthless elements if you are going to govern effectively since you must be feared. “The right kind of terrible”. 

 

Actually I was just trying to present a possible ending that I thought might be interesting for fans. I don't see any harm in this. I even said it was a stretch. Perhaps the show is trying to show in the End Game that there is a different way to rule than just your last statement (and I agree with you that the plot line for Daenerys character up to the end of season 7 was an intricate/major component of the story).  We shall see.  Maybe you might want to share some of your own ideas/perspectives as to the end game for Daenerys. That's what this thread is all about.  I am certainly interested in hearing them. I try to keep an open mind.  I don't believe anyone really knows for sure what GRRM and D&D have in mind for the ending of the show. 

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2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Actually I was just trying to present a possible ending that I thought might be interesting for fans. I don't see any harm in this. I even said it was a stretch. Perhaps the show is trying to show in the End Game that there is a different way to rule than just your last statement (and I agree with you that the plot line for Daenerys character up to the end of season 7 was an intricate/major component of the story).  We shall see.  Maybe you might want to share some of your own ideas/perspectives as to the end game for Daenerys. That's what this thread is all about.  I am certainly interested in hearing them. I try to keep an open mind.  I don't believe anyone really knows for sure what GRRM and D&D have in mind for the ending of the show. 

Of course there is no harm. I am just asking why you want to see her move away from these “conqueror” tendencies or why even you see it as this inexplicable contradiction when one of George’s key points is that his characters are grey. 

As for what I would like to see for an ending to that character, I am not entirely sure. I don’t think I can say that in isolation. She is a big enough character where the climax to her story is going to be tied up with the climax of the story overall so her ending will be a big function of what thematically the story as a whole is trying to say. 

If I had to guess, I would say that her arc will end by her accepting that she is not the heir and being willing to fight for something other than her own claim and wrestling with the fact that her ambition for the throne led to the white walkers getting past the wall. I see the culmination to her arc as more about accepting that she was not born to rule the seven kingdoms vs moving away from certain personality traits. 

Edited by jcmontea

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57 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Of course there is no harm. I am just asking why you want to see her move away from these “conqueror” tendencies or why even you see it as this inexplicable contradiction when one of George’s key points is that his characters are grey. 

As for what I would like to see for an ending to that character, I am not entirely sure. I don’t think I can say that in isolation. She is a big enough character where the climax to her story is going to be tied up with the climax of the story overall so her ending will be a big function of what thematically the story as a whole is trying to say. 

If I had to guess, I would say that her arc will end by her accepting that she is not the heir and being willing to fight for something other than her own claim. I see the culmination to her arc as more about accepting that she was not born to rule the seven kingdoms vs moving away from certain personality traits. 

Actually I never stated that I wanted these things to happen but rather I was just presenting them as a possible ending. However, just because one of GRRM's key points is that his characters are gray does not mean, IMHO, that there can't be some modifications/changes over time (and especially at the end of the story) that might be minor, moderate, or even extreme. It does appear that Jamie's character is on a somewhat of a redemption arc, for example. And in my first post on this thread I identified some "possible" minor signs that Daenerys might be moving in a similar fashion. I also stated that these might just be red herrings as well. The same change concept would apply to her "conqueror" tendencies (especially as her decision to invade Westeros, precipitating the invasion of the NK,  is likely to be the cause, directly or indirectly, of the death of thousands of people and massive destruction). Perhaps these things will at least get her to question the "conqueror" impulses of her gray personality.

I also stated in my first post that one option Daenerys would have, once she accepts Jon as the true heir, would be to ally with him to address the issues of the NK and Cersei. This again is just one possibility (as I noted) so I think we are on the same page here as an idea. Perhaps she will reach and accept the conclusion that she was not born to rule the seven kingdoms (but still keep her gray character traits totally intact). But I just have a gut feeling that it is not going to happen this way, but I would not be upset if it did. Just my perspective. Thanks for your response. Should be exciting to see what actually happens.

Edited by DisneyDoc2425

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On 12/17/2018 at 11:59 AM, SeanF said:

I hope she'll finish up like Walter White.

She begins as an immensely sympathetic heroine, and ends as  ……… the Devil. 

Yes please. But I doubt it.

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On the scouring of the shire GRRM said that it involved a fascist government taking over the Shire and burning trees. I dont know why but that always made me think of Theon taking over Winterfell and now I can see Dany doing that. Both act like benevolent tyrants. "I am your only protection against the likes of him."

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As was prophesied in the House of the Undying in Qaarth, Dany will see the Red Keep shattered and ruined, first gutted by flames so hot that they reduce the Iron Throne to slag, then blanketed by snows howling through gaps in the ruined ceiling and walls so like Harrenhal’s. She fulfils her vow not to merely stop the wheel of Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark ever scheming to seize the reins of power, but to break that wheel forever. And break it she does, for she has come not to relive and restore Aegon’s Conquest, but to end it in an echo of its beginnings.

She will later have a transformative, deathlike experience that leads to forever freeing Planetos from the cycle of unnaturally long seasons since the ancient pact that warped the world to create them. Her dragons dead from the new Dance, magic fades away never to return. Having now joined Jon as someone who has passed through betrayal and death yet somehow returned for some higher purpose, and with both as broken by the War for the Dawn as Westeros itself, Dany joins Jon in rejecting all notions of monarchy. They leave the common people to make their own decisions just as Gandalf left the hobbits to take care of their own affairs after the War of the Ring had ravaged the lands and scoured the Shire.

Dany and Jon, now coëqual spirits from the beyond the grave, cannot continue to live in the war-torn world they themselves have won back for the smallfolk. Like Beren and Lúthien’s second life in Dor Firn-i-Guinar, the Land of the Dead That Live, Dany and Jon take their child to live a simple Second Life together as the family Dany foresaw in the House of the Undying, and neither is ever seen again by any living soul in Westeros.

We last see them chasing their Dream of Spring into the lands formerly Beyond the Wall where they can be free of kings and kneelers alike. The snows and ice retreat to reveal the countryside from Bran’s dark vision of the Children plunging dragonglass into a living man’s heart, and we see a green and pleasant land filled with blossoms exploding in a riot of color as

“the wings of butterflies unfold and rising songbirds stir the air,
  where the morning comes alive with the music of birdsong
  for the first time in ten thousand years.”

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Well, I expect to see the same Daenerys we've seen in all other seasons: A mixture of cruel ruthlessness and wannabe-cordial queen.

Her arc of development is fantastic and that makes her such an interesting character. Now she falls in love with Jon Snow, the experienced death the of one of her beloved dragons and will probably see the other two die as well. She will need to enter into more compromises than before, particularly with Jon and the Northerners and the common enemy. She will continue to mellow.

One of the unknown issues is, whether Daenerys is really barren or will have a child with Jon. Personally, I do not see the time line for pregnancy and childbirth, but the timeline was messed up in season 7, too.

The main question is: How will Daenerys die? I see very little chances for her to survive.

 

 

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