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The Fall of the Westerosi Warrior Women?


cgf

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By this point most of us will have noticed how many women in FaB led troops into battle, led their houses, or other held other forms of explicit power.  Which creates a stark contrast with the world we see through the main books.  Westeros has obviously never been egalitarian on gender, but it seems that historical westeros was far more flexible than it has become in the present day.  So what do we think happened between the end of FaB vol 1 and the present that created this westerosi backlash that has made a warrior woman like Brienne completely unique outside of very edges of westeros?  

 

Two of factors that I jump to my mind as possible explanations are:

- the targaryens intertwining with the seven to give even more influence to the faith than it had held in a disunited realm; when the starry sept sat kingdoms away from most westerosi...especially when they lost their dragons as symbols of their "divine rule"

- a backlash against Rhaenyra similar to the backlash against bastards that Cat describes coming as a result of the Blackfyre rebellions.

 

but I'm curious what other factors could have influenced this change in westerosi culture that we see from the early dragon-days of the targaryen reign to the present post targaryen world that the books have opened to us?

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30 minutes ago, cgf said:

By this point most of us will have noticed how many women in FaB led troops into battle, led their houses, or other held other forms of explicit power.  Which creates a stark contrast with the world we see through the main books.  Westeros has obviously never been egalitarian on gender, but it seems that historical westeros was far more flexible than it has become in the present day.  So what do we think happened between the end of FaB vol 1 and the present that created this westerosi backlash that has made a warrior woman like Brienne completely unique outside of very edges of westeros?  

 

Two of factors that I jump to my mind as possible explanations are:

- the targaryens intertwining with the seven to give even more influence to the faith than it had held in a disunited realm; when the starry sept sat kingdoms away from most westerosi...especially when they lost their dragons as symbols of their "divine rule"

- a backlash against Rhaenyra similar to the backlash against bastards that Cat describes coming as a result of the Blackfyre rebellions.

 

but I'm curious what other factors could have influenced this change in westerosi culture that we see from the early dragon-days of the targaryen reign to the present post targaryen world that the books have opened to us?

I would agree with both your reasons. Notice that the regions where women have a lot of political sway and can be soldiers, fighters or military generals tend to be in the three regions where worhsip of the Old Gods is still practiced (North, Vale, and Riverlands), despite the majority following the Faith, and Dorne. But in the Stormlands and the Reach we do not have such military examples, except for Brienne, after the conquering, and little evidence of such women prior to conquering. It is in the Reach that we have the original seat of the Faith. And the great lords in the Stormlands are Baratheons who consistently reveal a tendency of dismissing female wishes and council. With the moving of the seat to King's Landing the Faith's influence has increased. It's also in the name of Faith that Baelor the Blessed locks up his three sisters.

Rhaenyra was the sole actual queen who sat the Iron Throne, and was not queen as consort of a king. She is generally used as an example on it being bad for women to be in a seat of power, even though Alicent Hightower and her sons started out as cruel, vicious and treacherous from the get go. We also have but one female regent, Alyssa Velaryon who is also villified for throwing her lot with Rogar Baratheon, who attempted to depose Jaehaerys. And though Visenya was not a regent, she crowned Maegor the Cruel king. Despite there beign lots of weak and cruel and stupid male kings, those three women help to fuel the mysoginy against women wielding power.

I refrained from mentioning the Westerlands. Like the Riverlands and the Vale it seems to have had powerful women until recently. But then you have Ellyn Reyne who is seen as the one who exerted the most influence to get house Tarbeck and house Reyne to rebel against House Lannister. So, the sentiment against women wielding (military) power would be high there.

Finally I want to offer a third reason: Dorne. Even in F&B one of the arguments used against a woman in the seat of power is "We are not Dorne". There always was an anti-Dorne sentiment, but it becomes outright hatred after Baelor I was killed. The hatred against Dorne is mostly evident in houses of the Reach, the marcher land Houses in the Stormlands, and Aegon the Unworthy. Not even Daeron II the Good and Baelor the Blessed managed to overcome this hatred.

Finally, the response to Brienne is mostly negative from the Reach men and Stormlanders, exactly those two regions that have had the least historical female leaders. Aside from Cat, the Riverlanders do not seem to balk at seeing Brienne in armor. Surprised perhaps, but nowhere near the response Brienne got from the knights of the Reach. Cat's response seems actually atypical for her region of origin. But then again even the Northern Starks such as Rickard disapproved of his daughter picking up a lance or sword. We don't know exactly what happened in the North yet, but there is a story involving women trying to wield political and military power around the time of Dunk & Egg.

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The only actual warrior-women in FaB are Visenya. Melony Piper and Sabitha Frey and Johanna Lannister do command troops, but they do not necessarily fight themselves. Black Aly Blackwood is an archer, but not a sword fighter (and she never ruled or commanded troops in her own right). Jeyne Arryn ruled but never led any troops into battle. Even Rhaenyra only wore armor once, and flew her dragon into a pretty bloodless victory.

In that sense, Brienne is as much of a freak as Visenya was. The widows after the Dance stepped in for absent men. Once the men were back the women went back to their usually duties because this society does not share power with women.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

You forgot Jonquil Darke and the wildling girl who was raised at White Harbor.

Was just about to mention them good shout out. 

 

Was Rhaenys (queen who never was) a warrior? I know they impled she has been in battle with her dragon even before the dance  but would have liked to know if she took up a weapon. 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

You forgot Jonquil Darke and the wildling girl who was raised at White Harbor.

Yeah, okay, but George forgot Jonquil Darke, too, considering that this plot line went nowhere. I expected her to actually save Alysanne from some assassination or fighting for her in some other capacity. Instead she did pretty much nothing.

But the base line is that the Seven Kingdoms never had a culture of warrior women. Not even the wildlings have that. There are some female fighters among them, yes, but most of them are not spear wives.

1 hour ago, Destiny Arrives said:

Was Rhaenys (queen who never was) a warrior? I know they impled she has been in battle with her dragon even before the dance  but would have liked to know if she took up a weapon. 

No. She could have been, but George apparently had no intention to give her more personality than the little bit we get in the Dance material. She could have gone with Baelon to the Tarth to avenge her father, she could have fought with Daemon and Corlys on the Stepstones, but no.

Alyssa and Alysanne could also have participated in the Fourth Dornish War. Three dragons are well and good, but five would have been better.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

No. She could have been, but George apparently had no intention to give her more personality than the little bit we get in the Dance material. She could have gone with Baelon to the Tarth to avenge her father, she could have fought with Daemon and Corlys on the Stepstones, but no.

Alyssa and Alysanne could also have participated in the Fourth Dornish War. Three dragons are well and good, but five would have been better.

 A shame other female Dragon riders weren't liek Rhaenys and Visenya makes me wish Dragons were alive when Deana and Daeron I were born we may have gotten a good female rider since Baela. 

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3 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

 A shame other female Dragon riders weren't liek Rhaenys and Visenya makes me wish Dragons were alive when Deana and Daeron I were born we may have gotten a good female rider since Baela. 

Yeah but in that case Dorne would have been royally f*****.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, okay, but George forgot Jonquil Darke, too,

She is not a "plot line". She's a historical figure, and GRRM didn't forget her, mentioning her half a dozen times or more, including details such as how she traveled with Jaehaerys on Vermithor, and her being appointed the gaoler in charge of Princess Saera. 

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War with "more dragons" was never going to bring Dorne into the realm, any more than war without dragons was. And the Dornish were just as dangerous, perhaps more, after being "conquered" than before. The effort to keep them subdued would have never ended, and would have been extremely costly for people who don't want to send their heirs and strength to die in Dorne.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

War with "more dragons" was never going to bring Dorne into the realm, any more than war without dragons was. And the Dornish were just as dangerous, perhaps more, after being "conquered" than before. The effort to keep them subdued would have never ended, and would have been extremely costly for people who don't want to send their heirs and strength to die in Dorne.

The lack of PR to turn the populace agsinst the Martells is shocking

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3 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

The lack of PR to turn the populace agsinst the Martells is shocking

Dragonlords already have PR against them... most people descend from the Rhoynish who survived the massacre brought to them by Valyrian dragonlords in Essos. Some Houses like the Daynes were First Men, but they too don't seem eager to switch sides.

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7 hours ago, Ran said:

She is not a "plot line". She's a historical figure, and GRRM didn't forget her, mentioning her half a dozen times or more, including details such as how she traveled with Jaehaerys on Vermithor, and her being appointed the gaoler in charge of Princess Saera. 

She could have had an interesting story, though. Just as there could be a reason why Ryam Redwyne has the fame he apparently had. Apparently whatever he did was not important enough to be mentioned by Gyldayn, either. One guesses this man was more song and less substance.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Daena the Defiant would have flown as much to war as Rhaenys or Laena or Rhaenyra or Helaena. If the Targaryen had had male dragonriders left, their women would have stayed at home where they belonged. There is a reason why Daena was not allowed to ride in tourneys. And a dragon wouldn't have changed that.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She could have had an interesting story, though. Just as there could be a reason why Ryam Redwyne has the fame he apparently had. Apparently whatever he did was not important enough to be mentioned by Gyldayn, either. One guesses this man was more song and less substance.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Daena the Defiant would have flown as much to war as Rhaenys or Laena or Rhaenyra or Helaena. If the Targaryen had had male dragonriders left, their women would have stayed at home where they belonged. There is a reason why Daena was not allowed to ride in tourneys. And a dragon wouldn't have changed that.

You expect too much from history books. Most of history is not intended to be fleshed out, but instead, much like the distant geographical features on the edges of the map, are merely intended to create an illusion of further substance where there is none.

Else George would NEVER get to give us tWoW, which is where his real focus is, and should be.

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3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You expect too much from history books. Most of history is not intended to be fleshed out, but instead, much like the distant geographical features on the edges of the map, are merely intended to create an illusion of further substance where there is none.

Else George would NEVER get to give us tWoW, which is where his real focus is, and should be.

I just expect that an author who introduces a character with much bravado to actually give that character a role to play. Frankly, there was no need for Gyldayn to mention Jonquil Darke at all since she was just an extra. She could have been just 'Queen Alysanne's female sworn shield'.

Ryam Redwyne is one of the more prestigious historical figures, supposedly one of the greatest Kingsguard who ever lived, having as great of fame in song and story as the Dragonknight. It is hardly surprising that a reader who actually knows the series expects him to get more than name-dropped. Who cares about Gyles Morrigen, Joffrey Doggett or even Lucamore the Lusty?

If undying fame can be earned by just wearing a white cloak then Ryam Redwyne clearly did not great feat of arms. The Dragonknight seems to be deserving of his great fame in songs and stories. Ryam apparently isn't.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I just expect that an author who introduces a character with much bravado to actually give that character a role to play. Frankly, there was no need for Gyldayn to mention Jonquil Darke at all since she was just an extra. She could have been just 'Queen Alysanne's female sworn shield'.

Ryam Redwyne is one of the more prestigious historical figures, supposedly one of the greatest Kingsguard who ever lived, having as great of fame in song and story as the Dragonknight. It is hardly surprising that a reader who actually knows the series expects him to get more than name-dropped. Who cares about Gyles Morrigen, Joffrey Doggett or even Lucamore the Lusty?

If undying fame can be earned by just wearing a white cloak then Ryam Redwyne clearly did not great feat of arms. The Dragonknight seems to be deserving of his great fame in songs and stories. Ryam apparently isn't.

Morgon Banefort sounds like pretty much the most fascinating historical figure in Westeros. An archetypal Dark Lord, with undead armies fighting at his command from a dread fortress known as the Banefort.

Yet he is a mere footnote in history. What a waste, I say. He could be the Szass Tam or Sauron of this world, and yet we know next to nothing about him!

Likely, because there is no further substance. But it hints at awesome mysteries and momentous events that lie just beyond the edge of our knowledge. Thus creating the illusion of depth where there is none.

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20 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Morgon Banefort sounds like pretty much the most fascinating historical figure in Westeros. An archetypal Dark Lord, with undead armies fighting at his command from a dread fortress known as the Banefort.

Morgon Banefort is not a character that's name-dropped plenty of times in the main series. Nor is he guy being introduced in a chapter on a period that's covered in depth by subsequent chapters - Jonquil Darke is.

Not to mention that the comparison is way off since the Dawn Age is never going to be the subject of a detailed history book. He could feature in a collection of songs and legends from Dawn Age and Age of Heroes, but that would be a different genre.

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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Notice that the regions where women have a lot of political sway and can be soldiers, fighters or military generals tend to be in the three regions where worhsip of the Old Gods is still practiced (North, Vale, and Riverlands), despite the majority following the Faith, and Dorne.

That's not true at all.  Firstly, the worship of the Old Gods is only practiced in the Vale among the mountain clans; the feudal society of the Vale, the culture that put Jeyne Arryn in charge, is Andal/Faith to the core.

Indeed, the only two ruling ladies of one of the Seven Kingdoms in the Targaryen era (that we know of) are Faith-dominated ones, between Lady Jeyne and the infant Lady Cerelle Lannister.  Cerelle, of course, didn't live to actually take power.

Meanwhile, the North, the only kingdom where the rule of the Old Gods predominates, rejected having a ruling lady when Cregan Stark's granddaughters were passed over in favour of their half-uncles.  Indeed, GRRM has been explicit that the North has never had a female ruler, unlike a few of the southern kingdoms.

The idea that the Faith is more sexist than the Old Gods just isn't supported by the text.

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50 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's not true at all.  Firstly, the worship of the Old Gods is only practiced in the Vale among the mountain clans; the feudal society of the Vale, the culture that put Jeyne Arryn in charge, is Andal/Faith to the core.

Indeed, the only two ruling ladies of one of the Seven Kingdoms in the Targaryen era (that we know of) are Faith-dominated ones, between Lady Jeyne and the infant Lady Cerelle Lannister.  Cerelle, of course, didn't live to actually take power.

Meanwhile, the North, the only kingdom where the rule of the Old Gods predominates, rejected having a ruling lady when Cregan Stark's granddaughters were passed over in favour of their half-uncles.  Indeed, GRRM has been explicit that the North has never had a female ruler, unlike a few of the southern kingdoms.

The idea that the Faith is more sexist than the Old Gods just isn't supported by the text.

The Royces still follow Old Gods, though a less bloody version of it. I'm not saying they are a dominant culture in the Vale, nor in the Riverlands.

I agree that the Starks haven't had a female ruler yet, but they don't mind women fighting. Alaric Stark is rather proud of the fact that he had a fierce Mormont wife.

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