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Damage done by the deaths of Daemon and Aemond Targaryen


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Question for you all, how much of a blow to the blacks and the greens were the deaths of Daemon Targaryen and his nephew Aemond and their dragons?

 

What could've happened had Aemond died before the battle over the God's Eye had taken place and Daemon was still alive and well with his dragon.

 

What sort of threat would a riderless Vhagar pose?

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I feel Aemond was detriment to the Green cause being wrathful and undisciplined, Vhagar could have made great asset to the what remained of house Targaryen, considering that they bind with riders regardless of their political view , dragons seem to respect inner power.

Daemon probably figured out that was only chance to beat Aemond on a more powerful dragon ,  but to be honest most of Deamons plans turned to worse and that final fight is nice way out from the scene also counting that he seemed to have dissent with Rhaenyra. Some would say heroic I'd call it flashy and pointless loss of two dragons.

 

I would like it more that dragons survived and those two killed each other, or that Daemon got executed long time ago, Dance convinced me more that Dragons aren't meant to be used by men they always mess things up ,

Quote

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

If any of them survived and killed other and his dragon automatically that side gains great advantage.

 

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As mentioned both deaths were blows to the respective sides but I feel that Aemond's death was probably a bigger loss for the Greens than Daemon's death was for the Blacks.

With Aemond the Greens lost their probably most seasoned commander they had at that point, as well as a big freaking dragon and what seems to have been a inspiring personality. My personal belief is that if Aemond had gone south to join with Daeron and the Green Reacher lords then he could have a good shot to keep the Two Betrayers in line (or just killed them) and may well have prevented the Second Battle of Tumbleton from turning out as it did. IF Aemond could have done this then I see, togehter with the riots in King's Landing, that the Blacks would be pretty much toast. Not enough grown dragons to compete with the 2-4 (including Vhaegar) that the Greens could field and between a Green Reacher army and the Stormlords with such dragon support, not even the power of the Vale, Riverlands and North combined would seem to me not able to conquer that.

Daemon on the other hand was of course probably the most seasoned commande of the whole war and among the best. But he was a lost asset when he died and I don't think that even if he'd survived against Aemond or he he'd not fought his nephew then, he would be able to benefit the Blacks very little given how Rhaenyra had rightfully condemned his as a traitor.

 

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13 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

As mentioned both deaths were blows to the respective sides but I feel that Aemond's death was probably a bigger loss for the Greens than Daemon's death was for the Blacks.

With Aemond the Greens lost their probably most seasoned commander they had at that point, as well as a big freaking dragon and what seems to have been a inspiring personality.  My personal belief is that if Aemond had gone south to join with Daeron and the Green Reacher lords

 

Also had he gone South Criston Cole and his army would likely have lived, being protected by Aemond. 

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The greens' loss was much bigger. At that point, they could field two dragons (Vhagar and Tessarion), while the blacks could field 6 (Vermithor, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, Caraxes, Seasmoke, Syrax; with Tyraxes and Moondancer growing day by day). So the greens lost 50% of their dragons while the blacks lost only a 16%.

But losing Aemond also meant that the greens lost one of their few leaders left. After the disapearance of Aegon II and the deaths of Lord Ormund and Ser Otto Hightower and Criston Cole, the greens had no one to lead them. Daeron was too young, and the lords of the Reach wouldn't be able to agree on anything (as we see when Hobert Hightower. Peake, Roxton and Bourney all fight to command the army).

I think Daemon considered all that when he decided to sacrifice himself. He could not foresee that the Two Betrayers would turn the tide at Tumblestone, indirectly causing the revolt at King's Landing and Rhaenyra's downfall.

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49 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The greens' loss was much bigger. At that point, they could field two dragons (Vhagar and Tessarion), while the blacks could field 6 (Vermithor, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, Caraxes, Seasmoke, Syrax; with Tyraxes and Moondancer growing day by day). So the greens lost 50% of their dragons while the blacks lost only a 16%.

But losing Aemond also meant that the greens lost one of their few leaders left. After the disapearance of Aegon II and the deaths of Lord Ormund and Ser Otto Hightower and Criston Cole, the greens had no one to lead them. Daeron was too young, and the lords of the Reach wouldn't be able to agree on anything (as we see when Hobert Hightower. Peake, Roxton and Bourney all fight to command the army).

I think Daemon considered all that when he decided to sacrifice himself. He could not foresee that the Two Betrayers would turn the tide at Tumblestone, indirectly causing the revolt at King's Landing and Rhaenyra's downfall.

interesting, so if Aemond dies before facing Daemon, do you think the two betrayers still betray?

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16 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

interesting, so if Aemond dies before facing Daemon, do you think the two betrayers still betray?

Good question.

I don't think we can know for sure, but at least they would have had some more doubts about it.

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11 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

interesting, so if Aemond dies before facing Daemon, do you think the two betrayers still betray?

I am pretty sure they would. If their ambitions to claim HIghgarden and the Iron Throne are something to judge things by then I don't see how a dead Aemond would make these things less possible for them to reach. After all the Greens would still lack a clear leadership figure and while the Blacks would have plenty of leaders, and their own claimant, around to ensure that there won't be many openings for Hugh and Ulf to see any kind of lordly, or kingly, ambition realized. The Greens on the other hand might in their desperate situation be more willing to engage with trading lordships for dragon support.

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Overall, I'd say Prince Aemond was no longer a Green as such while he was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was no longer the Prince Regent nor was he coordinating his attacks with the other loyalists of Aegon II that were still in the field. He was fighting his own private war against Rhaenyra and her followers, but in a pretty pointless way.

Vhagar was the largest living dragon - the way to make use of her would have been to take her to the (empty) Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, to Gulltown and White Harbor and Winterfell - either destroying those castles or 'persuading' the lords there to reconsider their allegiances.

Seasmoke and Addam Velaryon finally convinced the reluctant Elmo Tully to fight for Rhaenyra. Obviously Vhagar and Aemond could have brought the Tullys into the war on Aegon II's side. Vice versa, a similar thing could have done for the Tyrells. Aemond could have flown Vhagar to Highgarden. He could have also taken her into the West to reduce Dalton Greyjoy's fleets to ashes to win the gratitude of Lady Johanna and another 10,000-20,000 Westermen for his brother.

Instead the man did pretty much nothing, focusing only on a silly scheme to try to reduce the number of Rhaenyra's dragons. He apparently wasn't smart enough to understand how a dragon is best used in warfare - and he was clearly not courageous enough to face both Caraxes and Sheepstealer - or Rhaenyra's dragons back in KL. Else he would have attacked Maidenpool or KL.

Killing Aemond and Vhagar was a completely nonsensical move on Daemon's part. Especially doing it the way he did. Why didn't he lure him in a trap there? Spread the word you are alone at Harrenhal but actually keep Nettles and Sheepstealer close by. How could Aemond have seen through that lie? All the man had to tell him that Daemon was alone at Harrenhal was Daemon's word - and that's not worth anything.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, I'd say Prince Aemond was no longer a Green as such while he was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was no longer the Prince Regent nor was he coordinating his attacks with the other loyalists of Aegon II that were still in the field. He was fighting his own private war against Rhaenyra and her followers, but in a pretty pointless way.

Vhagar was the largest living dragon - the way to make use of her would have been to take her to the (empty) Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, to Gulltown and White Harbor and Winterfell - either destroying those castles or 'persuading' the lords there to reconsider their allegiances.

Seasmoke and Addam Velaryon finally convinced the reluctant Elmo Tully to fight for Rhaenyra. Obviously Vhagar and Aemond could have brought the Tullys into the war on Aegon II's side. Vice versa, a similar thing could have done for the Tyrells. Aemond could have flown Vhagar to Highgarden. He could have also taken her into the West to reduce Dalton Greyjoy's fleets to ashes to win the gratitude of Lady Johanna and another 10,000-20,000 Westermen for his brother.

Instead the man did pretty much nothing, focusing only on a silly scheme to try to reduce the number of Rhaenyra's dragons. He apparently wasn't smart enough to understand how a dragon is best used in warfare - and he was clearly not courageous enough to face both Caraxes and Sheepstealer - or Rhaenyra's dragons back in KL. Else he would have attacked Maidenpool or KL.

Killing Aemond and Vhagar was a completely nonsensical move on Daemon's part. Especially doing it the way he did. Why didn't he lure him in a trap there? Spread the word you are alone at Harrenhal but actually keep Nettles and Sheepstealer close by. How could Aemond have seen through that lie? All the man had that Daemon was alone at Harrenhal was Daemon's word - and that's not worth anything.

This. This is huge. Aemond Targaryen never married into the Baratheons once Borros sobered up. Hell his own mother didn't want anything to do with him.

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17 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

I am pretty sure they would. If their ambitions to claim HIghgarden and the Iron Throne are something to judge things by then I don't see how a dead Aemond would make these things less possible for them to reach. After all the Greens would still lack a clear leadership figure and while the Blacks would have plenty of leaders, and their own claimant, around to ensure that there won't be many openings for Hugh and Ulf to see any kind of lordly, or kingly, ambition realized. The Greens on the other hand might in their desperate situation be more willing to engage with trading lordships for dragon support.

Interesting I do wonder how Daemon would handle them.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, I'd say Prince Aemond was no longer a Green as such while he was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was no longer the Prince Regent nor was he coordinating his attacks with the other loyalists of Aegon II that were still in the field. He was fighting his own private war against Rhaenyra and her followers, but in a pretty pointless way.

Vhagar was the largest living dragon - the way to make use of her would have been to take her to the (empty) Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, to Gulltown and White Harbor and Winterfell - either destroying those castles or 'persuading' the lords there to reconsider their allegiances.

Seasmoke and Addam Velaryon finally convinced the reluctant Elmo Tully to fight for Rhaenyra. Obviously Vhagar and Aemond could have brought the Tullys into the war on Aegon II's side. Vice versa, a similar thing could have done for the Tyrells. Aemond could have flown Vhagar to Highgarden. He could have also taken her into the West to reduce Dalton Greyjoy's fleets to ashes to win the gratitude of Lady Johanna and another 10,000-20,000 Westermen for his brother.

Instead the man did pretty much nothing, focusing only on a silly scheme to try to reduce the number of Rhaenyra's dragons. He apparently wasn't smart enough to understand how a dragon is best used in warfare - and he was clearly not courageous enough to face both Caraxes and Sheepstealer - or Rhaenyra's dragons back in KL. Else he would have attacked Maidenpool or KL.

Killing Aemond and Vhagar was a completely nonsensical move on Daemon's part. Especially doing it the way he did. Why didn't he lure him in a trap there? Spread the word you are alone at Harrenhal but actually keep Nettles and Sheepstealer close by. How could Aemond have seen through that lie? All the man had to tell him that Daemon was alone at Harrenhal was Daemon's word - and that's not worth anything.

Yeah he does seem more of a monster than a proper thinker

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, I'd say Prince Aemond was no longer a Green as such while he was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was no longer the Prince Regent nor was he coordinating his attacks with the other loyalists of Aegon II that were still in the field. He was fighting his own private war against Rhaenyra and her followers, but in a pretty pointless way.

Vhagar was the largest living dragon - the way to make use of her would have been to take her to the (empty) Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, to Gulltown and White Harbor and Winterfell - either destroying those castles or 'persuading' the lords there to reconsider their allegiances.

Seasmoke and Addam Velaryon finally convinced the reluctant Elmo Tully to fight for Rhaenyra. Obviously Vhagar and Aemond could have brought the Tullys into the war on Aegon II's side. Vice versa, a similar thing could have done for the Tyrells. Aemond could have flown Vhagar to Highgarden. He could have also taken her into the West to reduce Dalton Greyjoy's fleets to ashes to win the gratitude of Lady Johanna and another 10,000-20,000 Westermen for his brother.

Instead the man did pretty much nothing, focusing only on a silly scheme to try to reduce the number of Rhaenyra's dragons. He apparently wasn't smart enough to understand how a dragon is best used in warfare - and he was clearly not courageous enough to face both Caraxes and Sheepstealer - or Rhaenyra's dragons back in KL. Else he would have attacked Maidenpool or KL.

Killing Aemond and Vhagar was a completely nonsensical move on Daemon's part. Especially doing it the way he did. Why didn't he lure him in a trap there? Spread the word you are alone at Harrenhal but actually keep Nettles and Sheepstealer close by. How could Aemond have seen through that lie? All the man had to tell him that Daemon was alone at Harrenhal was Daemon's word - and that's not worth anything.


I believe you are wrong on the first account and misguided on the others.

For the first part even while Aemond was abandoning the responsibilities of his position as the highest ranking Green leader, and Protector of the Realm to that, its clear that he is very much a Green partisan. You could just as well say that Aegon II wasn't a Green when he was recovering from his wounds and we both know that's not true.

As for the use of Vhagar there are many ways to use a dragon, but the point is that in the end, the side with dragons will always destroy the side without dragons. Providing the dragons are of sufficient size to be ridden into battle, of course. And thus given that the Greens had two dragons at that time as well as that there were like six Black dragons, we can see that trying to use Vhagar's individual advantage over other Black dragons in a one-on-one fight means that its one of several plausible strategies. And hence the tactics to attempt to reduce Rhaenyra's dragon numbers was far from silly. In fact I'd say that its just as well or even a necessary move in order to avoid the Black dragons simply overwhelm Tessarion and Vhagar by numbers. For we see that Vhagar can't just destroy Daemon's dragon like that, and thus it would be foolish to think that facing three times their numbers that even Vhagar could win. And Prince Aemond would have know that and so sought ways to even the odds.

As for the alternatives proposed they would also mean that Prince Aemond would be taken out the fight. The time needed to either destroy the Iron Fleet or, even more absurdly, try to strongarm the Vale into switching sides, would have taken Prince Aemond and Vhagar out from the war for potentially months and left Prince Daeron to fend for himself while the Protector of the Realm was off the radar. Sure burning some castles would have been nice but the Greens, with only a single army left and Lord Baratheon not yet joining the fray, needed Vhagar to make his presence felt and do something to aid them or harm the Blacks, now.

For Daemon, killing Aemond was a perfectly fitting move in accordance with his character. He had been unmasked as a traitor to his queen and was in disgrace and dishonour. Going out in a flash of glory, like for example Addam of Hull did in the Second Battle of Tumbleton, would have redeemed him somewhat for as many of you probably known what an insufferable existance to live in exile having ruled an empire and the royal red and black makes for the finest burial shroud.

 

6 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Interesting I do wonder how Daemon would handle them.

I'd assume he'd kill them. Or maybe been a man for them to respect and so keep them in line.

 

6 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Yeah he does seem more of a monster than a proper thinker

A warrior above a diplomat or assassin is how I would put it.

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8 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

For the first part even while Aemond was abandoning the responsibilities of his position as the highest ranking Green leader, and Protector of the Realm to that, its clear that he is very much a Green partisan. You could just as well say that Aegon II wasn't a Green when he was recovering from his wounds and we both know that's not true.

He abandoned his brother's Hand and the army he himself had marshaled. And he did nothing to retake the Iron Throne from the pretender. There were armies in the field who could have needed the help of his dragon and he was not giving it to them.

It is like Tywin would ignore Robb/Stannis/Renly the moment he learns about Balon taking up a crown - and henceforth use all his assets to crush the Ironborn and prepare an invasion of Dorne (because the Dornishmen also did not do Joffrey homage).

No Green would have wanted Aemond to pointlessly attack minor seats and villages in the Riverlands. That is so stupid it can be seen as treason.

8 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

As for the use of Vhagar there are many ways to use a dragon, but the point is that in the end, the side with dragons will always destroy the side without dragons.

That is an incorrect assertion. Dragons can be killed. Even Vhagar could have been killed by mere mortals without any dragonrider assistance. Just as Meraxes was killed.

Aemond would have ended up with his pants down had the Two Betrayers stayed true and destroyed Daeron, Tessarion, and the entire Hightower at Tumbleton. That would have likely marked the end of the Dance, with all the Black dragons uniting to hunt down Vhagar. Instead he could have fooled Daemon and Nettles the same way he was fooled by Daemon - circumvent them and start a surprise attack on KL. If he burned Maegor's Holdfast in the middle of the night Rhaenyra and Joffrey may have been dead long before they could mount a dragon to attack Vhagar.

8 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

Providing the dragons are of sufficient size to be ridden into battle, of course. And thus given that the Greens had two dragons at that time as well as that there were like six Black dragons, we can see that trying to use Vhagar's individual advantage over other Black dragons in a one-on-one fight means that its one of several plausible strategies. And hence the tactics to attempt to reduce Rhaenyra's dragon numbers was far from silly. In fact I'd say that its just as well or even a necessary move in order to avoid the Black dragons simply overwhelm Tessarion and Vhagar by numbers. For we see that Vhagar can't just destroy Daemon's dragon like that, and thus it would be foolish to think that facing three times their numbers that even Vhagar could win. And Prince Aemond would have know that and so sought ways to even the odds.

Rhaenyra and her people were silly to actually give a damn about Aemond. Why not let him pointlessly burn villages, ever more blackening the reputation of Aegon II and the Greens while they use their dragon advantage to actually destroy the remaining Green armies and their castles?

Gyldayn makes it crystal clear that the real threat to Rhaenyra's rule was the Hightower army - not Aemond.

8 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

As for the alternatives proposed they would also mean that Prince Aemond would be taken out the fight. The time needed to either destroy the Iron Fleet or, even more absurdly, try to strongarm the Vale into switching sides, would have taken Prince Aemond and Vhagar out from the war for potentially months and left Prince Daeron to fend for himself while the Protector of the Realm was off the radar. Sure burning some castles would have been nice but the Greens, with only a single army left and Lord Baratheon not yet joining the fray, needed Vhagar to make his presence felt and do something to aid them or harm the Blacks, now.

Considering that there is more than ample evidence that a dragon showing up in your castle yard has a strong impact on the allegiance of a lord (e.g Elmo Tully, also Borros Baratheon, and all the lords Jace visited during his flight) you are arguing against the text there. Vhagar could have caused many lords to change/reconsider their allegiances - and she could have certainly been used to destroy crucial enemies of the Greens. And who knows, perhaps Dalton Greyjoy would have shat his pants and had ran back to the Iron Islands the moment Vhagar had shown up above his ships?

In fact, Aemond's shows his utter stupidity (and perhaps even his cowardice) by the very important fact that he did not really attack any great Black seats in the Riverlands - like Raventree, the Twins, Seagard, Wayfarer's Rest, etc. The only seats/places of note to burn were Castle Darry and Lord Harroway's Town - and neither seem that significant compared to the really powerful seats of the Riverlands.

If Aemond had repeated what Visenya did to the Riverlands back in the days of the Faith Militant Uprising - taking on the real enemies of Aegon II with his dragon - the rebellion of the Riverlanders against Aegon II may have come to an end.

8 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

For Daemon, killing Aemond was a perfectly fitting move in accordance with his character. He had been unmasked as a traitor to his queen and was in disgrace and dishonour. Going out in a flash of glory, like for example Addam of Hull did in the Second Battle of Tumbleton, would have redeemed him somewhat for as many of you probably known what an insufferable existance to live in exile having ruled an empire and the royal red and black makes for the finest burial shroud.

That is also not even remotely implied by the text. We have no idea why Daemon did what he did (or at least I don't really understand it), but it is quite clear that he didn't have the same intention as Addam Velaryon - who had no intention to die and only ended up attacking Vermithor when the dragon ran amok and started to randomly attack his men and allies. He actually intended to retake Tumbleton and kill the traitors there to prove his loyalty to his queen.

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