Plot line that GRRM avoided

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Many houses whose members married Targaryens could get dragons if GRRM didn't  avoid to create too many dragonrider families. No Targaryen girls married to great houses but many small houses (Manderly, Farman, Hightower, Royce) also lost this chance. Velaryon would be exception if Rhaenyra wasn't heir to the throne (What Aegon II wanted to do with Velaryon princes with dragonriding ability is not a mystery). Baratheons have both blood and marriage from Targayens but GRRM keeps Orys's parentage in rumor level to save story. There is also magic of Dragonstone which causes hatching of dragons.

[BlueNightzx]

I think is pretty much confirmed in FaB that Orys is indeed a bastard brother of Aegon, "dragon spawn" with the women of the fishing village in dragonstone.

Baratheons actually have a lot of dragon blood when you count that and all the marriages with targaryens, i find it funny  that this aspect is not given much importance.

[The hairy bear]

One thing that we should take into account is than in order to became a dragonrider you'd need two things: some degree of dragon blood... and access to an actual dragon.

There has always been dragonseeds in Dragonstone. Should we assume that it never ocurred to any of them to try luck with a dragon? And that suddenly, when the blacks give them the opportunity, a bunch of them make a step forward? I think that this implies that the access to the Dragonmount is restricted, and that the Targaryen were very careful that no one besides them could get close to the dragons or their eggs.

It's also notable that the Dragonpit is also heavily defended, with bronze doors and a contingent of dragonkeepers.

So, even if the Baratheons (or any other house) had actual Targaryen blood, it wouldn't be of any use to them if the king did not give them eggs for their infant children.

[Jaak]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

One thing that we should take into account is than in order to became a dragonrider you'd need two things: some degree of dragon blood... and access to an actual dragon.

There has always been dragonseeds in Dragonstone. Should we assume that it never ocurred to any of them to try luck with a dragon? And that suddenly, when the blacks give them the opportunity, a bunch of them make a step forward? I think that this implies that the access to the Dragonmount is restricted, and that the Targaryen were very careful that no one besides them could get close to the dragons or their eggs.

The Sowing was NOT the first occasion non-Targaryens tried to tame Targaryen dragons.

There were the twelve whose bones littered Cannibal´s lair. Who were they? When?

Might it not have occurred to Jaeharys to place a detachment of Dragon Guards at Cannibal´s lair, being warned by first two or three skeletons not to try his luck with the possibility that 4th might live and succeed?

[lysmonger]

I'm very very surprised the Velaryons after a few generations werent given dragons for there own. 

[Xeno of Carcosa]

4 hours ago, lysmonger said:

I'm very very surprised the Velaryons after a few generations werent given dragons for there own. 

Then again, the Velaryons went to Driftmark before the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone, and they weren't dragon riders back then either... the descriptions of Corys in the context of the other Velaryons makes it seem like sailing has a similar connection for them as flying does for the Targaryens.

[lysmonger]

You would think aegon the Conqueror wouldve creawted a ruling system that prevented Dragon Civil War. 

[Lord Varys]

With Corlys and Rhaenys the Velaryons finally became a dragonrider family, anyway. With Laena and Laenor and Addam they were established as such, and the trend continues when Alyn and Baela present their newborn daughter with a dragon egg in the cradle. That it produced a monster is unfortunate but if that hadn't happened it seems clear that the second Laena Velaryon would have become a dragonrider, too.

[Jaak]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:13 AM, lysmonger said:

You would think aegon the Conqueror wouldve creawted a ruling system that prevented Dragon Civil War. 

He had no particular idea there was a need.

We are specifically told, when Maegor and Aegon fought at Harrenhal, that there had not been a dragon civil war since fall of Valyria - for 140 years.

Targaryens had come from Valyria with 5 dragons. 4 of them had died, somehow. As had an unknown number of dragons who hatched and died in Century of Blood. 3 Targaryen lords had been succeeded by their brethren rather than children. Yet none of this had involved a dragon civil war.

You would think Rhaena and Jaehaerys, having got their warning from Maegor, would have created a ruling system to prevent repeat civil war. They did not. Lasted just 81 years, from the civil war of 48 that did not reach an actual dragon battle, to Dance in 129.

[lysmonger]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

He had no particular idea there was a need.

We are specifically told, when Maegor and Aegon fought at Harrenhal, that there had not been a dragon civil war since fall of Valyria - for 140 years.

 Targaryens had come from Valyria with 5 dragons. 4 of them had died, somehow. As had an unknown number of dragons who hatched and died in Century of Blood. 3 Targaryen lords had been succeeded by their brethren rather than children. Yet none of this had involved a dragon civil war.

 You would think Rhaena and Jaehaerys, having got their warning from Maegor, would have created a ruling system to prevent repeat civil war. They did not. Lasted just 81 years, from the civil war of 48 that did not reach an actual dragon battle, to Dance in 129.

They couldn't make the king job exceedingly law and rule oriented and intellectually grueling. Couldn't make it a job no one really wanted.

[BrainFireBob]

Sidebar: always thought there was a link between Targaryen scions and dragon eggs- site a dragonseed, and the dragons lay "their" egg. 

[Seaserpent]

On 12/23/2018 at 12:03 AM, Lord Varys said:

With Corlys and Rhaenys the Velaryons finally became a dragonrider family, anyway. With Laena and Laenor and Addam they were established as such, and the trend continues when Alyn and Baela present their newborn daughter with a dragon egg in the cradle. That it produced a monster is unfortunate but if that hadn't happened it seems clear that the second Laena Velaryon would have become a dragonrider, too.

Could Gendry or Stannis also be dragonriders than?

[Lord Varys]

On 12/25/2018 at 7:01 PM, Jaak said:

He had no particular idea there was a need.

If people can fault Viserys I for not foreseen and thus preventing the Dance, people should also blame the Conqueror for Maegor's usurpation because there are clear signs leading up to that from the moment the first grandchild of Aegon I is born.

Visenya and Maegor are not happy at all that Aenys and Alyssa are as fertile as they are, and one assumes the succession was a (or the) main issue between Visenya and Aegon that led to the effective end of their marriage in the last two years of Aegon's reign.

Visenya later actively casts doubts on Aenys' ability to rule - her intention there may have been to prepare to an actual rebellion/coup/open treason.

It may be that only the great favors Aenys showed to Maegor shortly after his ascension - especially his decision to name him Hand - prevented Visenya/Maegor from actively moving against him. Being the Hand is such an exalted position that you really have no good reason to complain.

Later on we hear Benifer comparing the relationship between Aemon-Baelon to Aenys-Maegor, implying that the lack of love/affection between the two half-brothers paved the way to Maegor's later usurpation and his war against his brother's sons.

In that sense, I'd say that Aegon I could have known or dreaded what might happen in the future, and he could have taken steps to prevent that by getting both Maegor and Visenya out of the way - either by permanent measures, or by sending them to the Wall or the silent sisters.

He could also have settled the issue with the Faith during his reign. If he had not wanted his grandchildren to marry Aenys would have likely followed his father's lead there. But he did not. 

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Could Gendry or Stannis also be dragonriders than?

Sure. FaB makes it clear that pretty much any dragonlord descendant can become a dragonrider. The majority of (noble) Volantenes and Lyseni for sure, and the Valyrian descendants in the other Free Cities, too. Potential dragonriders could include two third/three fourths of the population of Volantis and Lys and as much as half or a third of the others.

Having dragonlord blood is nothing special in western Essos. That is never made more evident than when Jaehaerys I grows afraid that the three stolen dragon eggs will establish another dragonlord family if they ever hatched. He never thinks that such hatchlings would not find any riders.

[Seaserpent]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure. FaB makes it clear that pretty much any dragonlord descendant can become a dragonrider. The majority of (noble) Volantenes and Lyseni for sure, and the Valyrian descendants in the other Free Cities, too. Potential dragonriders could include two third/three fourths of the population of Volantis and Lys and as much as half or a third of the others.

Having dragonlord blood is nothing special in western Essos. That is never made more evident than when Jaehaerys I grows afraid that the three stolen dragon eggs will establish another dragonlord family if they ever hatched. He never thinks that such hatchlings would not find any riders.

So even Quinten can be one, because he is descended from Targaryan also. 

[BrainFireBob]

Could be more than can, I think. It's whether you inherit the particular trait required, else not so many dragonseed remains during the Sowing.

 

Edit: Varys, I think, overstates the case with how common the trait is. But yes, could be many potential dragonriders out there.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

So even Quinten can be one, because he is descended from Targaryan also. 

Sure. He was not fantasizing when he talked about his Targaryen blood. Unless, of course, some of his ancestors were actually not fathered by the Martell descendants they were officially ascribed to but a rather secret bastards fathered by a lover of the consort of a ruling Prince of Dorne. Then Quentyn might actually not have so much as a drop of dragonlord blood. But we have no reason to believe something like that is the case.

8 hours ago, BrainFireBob said:

Could be more than can, I think. It's whether you inherit the particular trait required, else not so many dragonseed remains during the Sowing.

The Sowing was not an ideal situation since a significant portion of the would-be dragonriders approached wild dragons who had never been ridden before - and were not exactly accustomed to the presence of humans. Vermithor, Silverwing, and Sea Smoke did not exactly kill many would-be dragonriders.

And the question whether you truly need dragonlord blood to become a dragonrider is actually raised repeatedly in FaB. Rhaena thinks the Lannisters could become dragonriders if they got any eggs, and they think that, too - just as the Astapori do later in ASoS -, Jaehaerys I flat out declares that if the stolen eggs were to hatch there would be a new dragonlord in the world, one not from House Targaryen. He does not specify that such people would have to be descended from (various) dragonlord bloodlines that still exist in the Free Cities - although that would be the case for his scenario of the Volantene triarchs acquiring dragons, since they should be always elected from Old Blood families. Finally there is Rhaena assuming that Androw Farman could mount a dragon - she thinks he is too craven to try, she does not say his lack of dragonlord blood makes it impossible for him to succeed in such an attempt were he to try to mount a dragon.

If the Targaryens don't take it as gospel that dragonlord blood is a necessary prerequisite to become a dragonrider then we shouldn't take it as gospel, either.

8 hours ago, BrainFireBob said:

Edit: Varys, I think, overstates the case with how common the trait is. But yes, could be many potential dragonriders out there.

Oh, considering the fact how prevalent Valyrian traits are in Lys and Volantis I may have underestimated the number of people. Thanks the Aegon IV tens of thousands of commoners might be Targaryen descendants by now. The man supposedly slept with about 900 women, so he could have had had hundreds of baseborn bastard children, and thousands of grandchildren.

In Lys we have noble families tracing their ancestry back to Valyria itself, and we have bed slaves - many of which are likely bred from bastard children the nobility fathered on whores - that are bred with other Valyrian-looking slaves. This means Valyrian blood might even be more common among the bed slaves than among the nobility. We also see Valyrian-looking slaves in Selhorys (Jorah is having sex with one when he chances on Tyrion), indicating that Valyrian blood runs strong among the slaves in Volantene territory, too.

And that's only the visible traits. We also know that all the Free Cities were founded by Valyrian adventurers or had such men among the founders. Even in those cities where there may have been only very few dragonlord descendants them multiplying and intermarrying with other people would have spread that blood among the population of those cities.

That is also what happened apparently on Dragonstone and Driftmark. Some Targaryens had affairs with their smallfolk there and those bastards later intermarried with the islanders, spreading the blood of the dragon among the populace. Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles are presumably descended from such people, and if Addam of Hull inherited his dragonlord blood from his alleged father Corlys Velaryon (and not from Laenor via Princess Rhaenys or Marilda's ancestors - there could also have been dragonseeds among her ancestors) then Addam's Targaryen ancestors would likely be very far removed indeed. Corlys earliest possible Targaryen ancestor in the Velaryon line could only be the Targaryen mother of Valaena Velaryon - and that would only work if the first Daemon Velaryon and Valaena were siblings. But the first Daemon was Corlys great-great-grandfather, meaning that Valaena's mother would be his great-great-great-grandmother.

Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles could have much more recent Targaryen ancestors. Daemon might be Nettles' father, whereas Ulf or Hugh could be descended from bastards fathered by Aemon or Baelon (later in life, after Alyssa's death) or even young Viserys I. Aenys I's older sons Aegon and Viserys could also have bastards thanks to an early dalliance.

[Seaserpent]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure. He was not fantasizing when he talked about his Targaryen blood. Unless, of course, some of his ancestors were actually not fathered by the Martell descendants they were officially ascribed to but a rather secret bastards fathered by a lover of the consort of a ruling Prince of Dorne. Then Quentyn might actually not have so much as a drop of dragonlord blood. But we have no reason to believe something like that is the case.

The Sowing was not an ideal situation since a significant portion of the would-be dragonriders approached wild dragons who had never been ridden before - and were not exactly accustomed to the presence of humans. Vermithor, Silverwing, and Sea Smoke did not exactly kill many would-be dragonriders.

And the question whether you truly need dragonlord blood to become a dragonrider is actually raised repeatedly in FaB. Rhaena thinks the Lannisters could become dragonriders if they got any eggs, and they think that, too - just as the Astapori do later in ASoS -, Jaehaerys I flat out declares that if the stolen eggs were to hatch there would be a new dragonlord in the world, one not from House Targaryen. He does not specify that such people would have to be descended from (various) dragonlord bloodlines that still exist in the Free Cities - although that would be the case for his scenario of the Volantene triarchs acquiring dragons, since they should be always elected from Old Blood families. Finally there is Rhaena assuming that Androw Farman could mount a dragon - she thinks he is too craven to try, she does not say his lack of dragonlord blood makes it impossible for him to succeed in such an attempt were he to try to mount a dragon.

If the Targaryens don't take it as gospel that dragonlord blood is a necessary prerequisite to become a dragonrider then we shouldn't take it as gospel, either.

Oh, considering the fact how prevalent Valyrian traits are in Lys and Volantis I may have underestimated the number of people. Thanks the Aegon IV tens of thousands of commoners might be Targaryen descendants by now. The man supposedly slept with about 900 women, so he could have had had hundreds of baseborn bastard children, and thousands of grandchildren.

In Lys we have noble families tracing their ancestry back to Valyria itself, and we have bed slaves - many of which are likely bred from bastard children the nobility fathered on whores - that are bred with other Valyrian-looking slaves. This means Valyrian blood might even be more common among the bed slaves than among the nobility. We also see Valyrian-looking slaves in Selhorys (Jorah is having sex with one when he chances on Tyrion), indicating that Valyrian blood runs strong among the slaves in Volantene territory, too.

And that's only the visible traits. We also know that all the Free Cities were founded by Valyrian adventurers or had such men among the founders. Even in those cities where there may have been only very few dragonlord descendants them multiplying and intermarrying with other people would have spread that blood among the population of those cities.

That is also what happened apparently on Dragonstone and Driftmark. Some Targaryens had affairs with their smallfolk there and those bastards later intermarried with the islanders, spreading the blood of the dragon among the populace. Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles are presumably descended from such people, and if Addam of Hull inherited his dragonlord blood from his alleged father Corlys Velaryon (and not from Laenor via Princess Rhaenys or Marilda's ancestors - there could also have been dragonseeds among her ancestors) then Addam's Targaryen ancestors would likely be very far removed indeed. Corlys earliest possible Targaryen ancestor in the Velaryon line could only be the Targaryen mother of Valaena Velaryon - and that would only work if the first Daemon Velaryon and Valaena were siblings. But the first Daemon was Corlys great-great-grandfather, meaning that Valaena's mother would be his great-great-great-grandmother.

Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles could have much more recent Targaryen ancestors. Daemon might be Nettles' father, whereas Ulf or Hugh could be descended from bastards fathered by Aemon or Baelon (later in life, after Alyssa's death) or even young Viserys I. Aenys I's older sons Aegon and Viserys could also have bastards thanks to an early dalliance.

Myself i had always the feeling after FaB and even before that Daemon was the father of Nettles. AFter FaB even more as we see how close their relationship was and knowing she was not beautifull and clean at all (while Daemon was a very attractive man, whjo could have every girl in the household there). I also understand what Brianfirebob means that a kind of gen not always get passed on and there could over many years also be mutations of it through the free Cities. But still i guess the bastards of Aegon IV and maybe some offspring still make a lot of dragonriders in Westeros. That the gen for hatching is not there anymore (or magic) doesnt mean that the dragonriders-gen is not everywhere.

I asked about quenten because i believe he is alive and was not the body found in the pit.