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Why was Bloodraven allowed to take Dark Sister to the Wall??


Canon Claude

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1 hour ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

The throne was Roberts anyway through right of conquest. The whole 1/4 Targaryen thing was just to make it seem like Robert was less of a usurper. 

I dont know.

If it wasn t for that blood either ned or jon arryn could have ended up as king

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@Maia and @Lord LannisterLannister

I think you are both right. As long as no one else intervened, Robert had the advantage on horse as it's not really about speed/evasiveness. Raegar's best shot with a sword seems to me to have been getting close and then using the point of the sword to pierce the weak points in Robert's armour,  or maybe going for the horse itself. If that was the 'game plan', and it's a risky one, then a light, thin, sickeningly sharp valyrian blade would definitely be the weapon of choice.

Robert would still be the favourite for me ahorse though. He's essentially just windmilling a hammer that Ned Stark couldn't even lift in Raegar's general direction - he can't really miss.

I'd love to know how it went down, if there was a a "but for Howland Reed" moment lurking in the background we're yet to discover.

 

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22 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

Sharpness isn't really the issue, it's mass versus available force. Even a greatsword is only about 6-7 lbs. Also, with a sword, the force is spread out along the length of the blade. This is why an ax is better for that. It can be a little heavier at the business end and focuses the force into a smaller area. I don't know if you've ever been to a machine shop, but even a non hydraulic sheet metal shears (up to 1/16" thick) is a sizeable piece of equipment with a very thick blade. And that's cutting from the edge. Trying to cut from the middle would be a problem.

Actually, I'm kind of surprised that we don't get accounts of VS axes, but I guess they are like lightsabers. They only come in one form.

In the real world there is no fault at all in your argument, but we've already seen glimmers of the magic imbued in these blades.   Brienne and Jon both note that the swords seem to move of their own accord.  Tobho Mott says OK seems to drink his red dye in--presumably resisting the change to the blade.  Blackfyre survives and darkens in Aegon's funeral pyre.    Dark Sister seems to serve a particular personality.  These are not normal common things accorded to ordinary objects.   If you consider the whole idea of Valyrian Steel and it's rarity you eventually get to the place that accepts these swords, perhaps axe and daggers, maybe a horn or 2, are created with this magical material to serve some magical purpose.   

Otherwise, your real world observations are spot on and I applaud your knowledge.    You mentioned metal shop upthread--do you have experience in working with steel?   So few people really understand the mechanics of real world weaponry--i think Needle and Vysenia wielding DS are a bit misleading and frankly old world weapons are not all that sexy in comparison to say lightsabers, for everyone.   

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

In the real world there is no fault at all in your argument, but we've already seen glimmers of the magic imbued in these blades.   Brienne and Jon both note that the swords seem to move of their own accord.  Tobho Mott says OK seems to drink his red dye in--presumably resisting the change to the blade.  Blackfyre survives and darkens in Aegon's funeral pyre.    Dark Sister seems to serve a particular personality.  These are not normal common things accorded to ordinary objects.   If you consider the whole idea of Valyrian Steel and it's rarity you eventually get to the place that accepts these swords, perhaps axe and daggers, maybe a horn or 2, are created with this magical material to serve some magical purpose.   

Otherwise, your real world observations are spot on and I applaud your knowledge.    You mentioned metal shop upthread--do you have experience in working with steel?   So few people really understand the mechanics of real world weaponry--i think Needle and Vysenia wielding DS are a bit misleading and frankly old world weapons are not all that sexy in comparison to say lightsabers, for everyone.   

Are you sugesting that valyrian steel weapons have some kind of low sentience? Because if so I would really apreciate some quotes...

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14 hours ago, Maia said:

FaB proves that a VS sword provides significant advantage to somebody who knows how to use it - yes, even against an armored opponent. Armor has weak points, after all, and a VS sword is ideally suited to exploit them. These things didn't cost fortunes just because they looked pretty. So, there is every reason to think that Rhaegar would have been victorious if he had one at the Trident.

And since I'm in a magical frame of mind any way...I picture Dark Sister much smaller than it is drawn and frankly, Visenya was way too small to wield something that well, big.   She whipped up and cut Aegon's face with that thing?   Hard to imagine DS is really that big.  OTOH, some damned fine swordsmen (including Visenya) wielded that sword, so perhaps magic reconciles all of this unlikeliness?   I don't think real world laws of physics or reason necessarily play largely into magic items, particularly those made by magical beings.   

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

Are you sugesting that valyrian steel weapons have some kind of low sentience? Because if so I would really apreciate some quotes...

You are welcome to search and find the exact quotes related to all my examples.    My suggestion is that Valyrian Steel is magic and our swords are magic.   Take what you will from it.  

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Ah man, I haven't had a good sword discussion in way too long!   I was hoping this would come up since we now know so much more about many swords since Ashaya got this juicy wonderful revelation from GRRM.   But, this deals with only 1, our elusive Dark Sister, so I won't digress further.   I'm with @kissdbyfire, as with in so many things, and others before me,  that there was an understanding between Aegon and Bloodraven regarding the purpose of Valyrian Steel and Hand Rivers' own very special brand of magic.  I think everyone arguing that Bloodraven was a traitor and murderer should take a moment to view events through Bloodraven's own eye.   He was fiercely loyal to the CROWN, not rebellious bastards.  He was not in power for power's sake.   He studied and was an accomplished multi-weapon fighter.   He was intensely good at gleaning intelligence.  I personally think he was also a humble man, in remaining Rivers without falling into the trappings of his brother who decided Blackfyre was a great cadet branch name for the Targaryens.  Bloodraven could have taken the name Targaryen as we see Ramsay Bolton transformed from Ramsay Snow following his legitimization.  He chose to stick with his bastard name and adopted his fathers' sigil with his own spin--to honor the Targaryens.   In all I've read about Brynden Rivers, I've yet to read anything that contradicts his loyalty, obedience or humility.   Egg seems to like him even as a little rebellious boy.   Look at all the bad press Sandor Clegane and Jamie Lannister get.    

I suspect that Bloodraven was probably influential over Aegon V and as a potential mentor, would have instructed the king on the ancient prophecies including TPTWP, 3 Heads of the Dragon, comets and possibly what the magic behind Valyrian Steel was for.  Maybe as a Blackwood, Bloodraven had access to even deeper 1st Men magical knowledge.   Maybe he had greendreams or visions.  Maybe that's just how greenseers roll--they are what they are.    Last I heard we've got Dunk & Egg heading north in the next tale--why not the Wall after that?  Who knows what little Egg could learn there?  

Aegon V had some serious face to save following Bloodraven's actions in killing the Blackfyre claimant.  Bloodraven made no effort to conceal the killing.  He meant to be very public about this action--at the expense of his personal honor.   Why doesn't anyone ever suppose that this killing was a conspiracy over some solo action taken?  Not that Aegon was involved, but the Council?   Someone else?  And dammit, Aegon was just named King of the Realm--how could he let this slide as his very 1st ruling?   What says Egg didn't convince BR to go to the Wall with Dark Sister (that anyone could have given him--including his stupid father) because he knew they were both needed, maybe for some great magical quest and maybe just to protect Aemon?   (Conversely, nothing says the whole Wall deal wasn't Bloodraven's idea and he talked Egg into the whole thing?) Didn't the Lannisters send that moron Janos Slynt up to the Wall to take over or at least provide information?   

Dark Sister was Bloodraven's sword.   The non heir ancestral sword of the Targaryens.  Whomever gave that sword to this son or brother intended it specifically for this guy, over Bittersteel and Daeron.  Though it does sound like Bloodraven would have preferred to have had his own beautiful dark sister, Shiera, over the sword any day of the week.   Daemon was out becoming a king in his own right while wielding Dark Sister.   What did anyone believe would happen to that when Daemon had his own son, not in high likelihood to become the same non-heir station as Daemon himself?   Maybe the same thing Aegon & Visenya's dad thought when he gave 2 of his kids their swords knowing that the other kid would bring kids into the mix, too.   A gift is a gift.   The return of these swords to their main ancestral line is a testament to the importance the Targs placed upon these swords remaining with or returning to the crown.   Who could have anticipated Bloodraven would actually take her along on rangings for crying out loud.    I'm pretty sure everyone expected Dark Sister to be returned upon his death.    

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In the real world there is no fault at all in your argument, but we've already seen glimmers of the magic imbued in these blades.   Brienne and Jon both note that the swords seem to move of their own accord.  Tobho Mott says OK seems to drink his red dye in--presumably resisting the change to the blade.  Blackfyre survives and darkens in Aegon's funeral pyre.    Dark Sister seems to serve a particular personality.  These are not normal common things accorded to ordinary objects.   If you consider the whole idea of Valyrian Steel and it's rarity you eventually get to the place that accepts these swords, perhaps axe and daggers, maybe a horn or 2, are created with this magical material to serve some magical purpose.   

Otherwise, your real world observations are spot on and I applaud your knowledge.    You mentioned metal shop upthread--do you have experience in working with steel?   So few people really understand the mechanics of real world weaponry--i think Needle and Vysenia wielding DS are a bit misleading and frankly old world weapons are not all that sexy in comparison to say lightsabers, for everyone.   

 

I have no problem with VS having magical/mythical properties or whatnot, but in actual usage that we have witnessed I haven't seen VS perform any better than a decent Japanese katana would in the same circumstances; and that type of steel technology is obviously within the ability of normal, mortal men, since we are they. We've witnessed a shard of volcanic glass do more dramatic and spectacular feats than any VS blade so far. It is fun to speculate, but I'm reserving full judgment until I see VS against plate armor. Until we see how it handles the best (non-VS) defense available, I can't really conjecture as to its superior qualities other than being razor sharp and light (katana again). Of course, we may already have seen this and I have just forgotten. It has been a good while since I last read the books. Little details are fading for me. (C'mon George, hurry up!)

Yes, I have experience working in steel making/repairing armor and other more modern tools, but I haven't forged an actual weapon for a decade or so. I'm in the midst repairing my mail right now (those tiny little ant sized rivets are a PITA!) and I just finished repairing a friend's brigandine. Mostly, I stick with leather these days. I find it more fun to work with. I'm making a studded leather hunting jerkin presently, but the mantle is giving me fits.

I also took fencing for several years and a friend of mine and I were going at it with two-handed swords for a couple of years until he got married and his girlfriend (now wife) said, "Umm, no. You're not doing that anymore!" Women! Go figure! ;)

 

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My personal theory on this subject is that Egg did not allow BR to take the sword with him but when he went to confiscate the sword it was no where to be found and BR claimed no knowledge of its whereabouts.  

I think BR glamoured the sword to look like a regular one and was able to smuggle it out with him under Egg's nose.

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