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zoenerys

The hound saved Jeyne Poole

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38 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Trefayne and @zoenerys

A couple of other thoughts on Littlefinger (not revolutionary, but a few connections that I think get neglected)

1. Littlefinger lusted (and he thinks loved, though I doubt he is capable of that, truly) after Catelyn and was denied due to his station.  He was then thoroughly embarassed by Brandon Stark.  I think this drove his already clever yet not wise mind into higher ambitions - not only to rise above his station and secure higher recognition, but also I think he had a larger goal in mind: the demise of House Stark. 
2. I think with Ned dead, he had originally hoped to marry Catelyn, but quickly realized that she would never return his affections (I think occured during the chapters with Catelyn in Renly's encampment during Clash.) So, he turned his sights to Sansa.
3. Ceresi notes in Dance, right before she was about to do her walk of atonement,  that after Joffrey set aside Sansa, Littlefinger had offered to marry her himself, but that he was disregarded because he was much too lowborn.  I think it was at this moment that Littlefinger started working further with the Tyrell's to murder Joffrey.  The Lannister's had now scorned him just as the Starks had, and their demise was now part of the grand scheme, too.

 

As to Catelyn not returning Petyr's advances after the Ned lost his head, I think you might be confusing the show with the novels. 

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26 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

At this point I have to believe that it probably was LF who either directly or indirectly put the bug in JA's ear about the incest in the first place

Excellent point.  I agree that the downfall of the Lannisters would contribute to LF's rise, but I think it took on a new, more personal vendetta like manifestation when he was, once again, dismissed due to his station.

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Excellent point.  I agree that the downfall of the Lannisters would contribute to LF's rise, but I think it took on a new, more personal vendetta like manifestation when he was, once again, dismissed due to his station.

So do I

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to Catelyn not returning Petyr's advances after the Ned lost his head, I think you might be confusing the show with the novels

Ah, I am sorry. I remembered that they were both in Bitterbridge but misrememberd timeline.  My apologies.

Let me correct my statement, which general consensus I still believe is true: Littlefinger had thought that perhaps he could marry Catelyn, maybe even becoming Lord of Winterfell (which would pair nicely with his disdain for House Stark for his embarassment), but realized that would not work at some juncture, maybe when Robb was crowned?

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22 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, I am sorry. I remembered that they were both in Bitterbridge but misrememberd timeline.  My apologies.

Let me correct my statement, which general consensus I still believe is true: Littlefinger had thought that perhaps he could marry Catelyn, maybe even becoming Lord of Winterfell (which would pair nicely with his disdain for House Stark for his embarassment), but realized that would not work at some juncture, maybe when Robb was crowned?

Post-RW was probably when he fully committed to Sansa. Remember Cat was never supposed to die there. Up until that point, he likely had a creepy obsession with Sansa but was mostly fixed on Cat. Taking custody of her daughter gives him either goodwill or leverage with her. When she is killed it’s a case of “well Sansa DOES look awful like her mother...”

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This is off topic and might be controversial, but IMO, Littlefinger wanted Sansa right from the beginning. When he first set eyes on her at the tourney. Seeing Sansa opened up so many new opportunities for him, that he could barely contain himself when speaking to her. He didn't replace Cat with Sansa in the eyrie, he did it in Kinglanding. Remember, Cersei's thoughts to herself that LF asked for her hand in marriage before she was married to Tyrion. Ergo, Cat was still alive!  He literally gave no shits about Cat anymore. It was all about Sansa and grooming her. Cat has too much baggage. Sansa is a blank slate in his mind.  

Edited by zoenerys

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3 hours ago, zoenerys said:

This is off topic and might be controversial, but IMO, Littlefinger wanted Sansa right from the beginning. When he first set eyes on her at the tourney. Seeing Sansa opened up so many new opportunities for him, that he could barely contain himself when speaking to her. He didn't replace Cat with Sansa in the eyrie, he did it in Kinglanding. Remember, Cersei's thoughts to herself that LF asked for her hand in marriage before she was married to Tyrion. Ergo, Cat was still alive!  He literally gave no shits about Cat anymore. It was all about Sansa and grooming her. Cat has too much baggage. Sansa is a blank slate in his mind.  

I agree. 

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17 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Post-RW was probably when he fully committed to Sansa. Remember Cat was never supposed to die there. Up until that point, he likely had a creepy obsession with Sansa but was mostly fixed on Cat. Taking custody of her daughter gives him either goodwill or leverage with her. When she is killed it’s a case of “well Sansa DOES look awful like her mother...”

I have thought about this as well, but I can't quite figure out/reconcile a couple of things and what it means for the story.  On one hand, I agree with you. She wasn't supposed to die. But on another, we do have Cersei's thought quote about Littlefinger offering to marry Sansa after she was cast aside by Joffrey, and that happened before the Red Wedding.  So, I get what you are saying entirely, but I can't quite figure out how to make that fit with the knowledge we have of Littlefinger offering to wed Sansa.
@zoenerys Yes, I am more inclined to your line of thinking on this. 

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On 12/17/2018 at 7:16 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I would think so. And the line in an early Game chapter where Bran recall Theon saying that at least Hodor knows his name strongly suggests that whole subplot had been worked out from the get go. 

Why would anyone say that? His name is Wyllas.

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16 hours ago, zoenerys said:

 He literally gave no shits about Cat anymore. It was all about Sansa and grooming her. Cat has too much baggage. Sansa is a blank slate in his mind.  

Good observation! It's my opinion that, post Brendan, Baelish stopped "loving" Catelyn almost immediately. Tyrion comments on how Littlefinger liked to regale all of King's Landing with the tale of how he had popped Catelyn Tully's cherry, right under the nose of her stodgy Stark husband, Lord Eddard. You don't publicly humiliate a woman you love with stories like that. Ever. Catelyn (and the Starks and the Tullys) were put on Littlefinger's Revenge List right from the get-go.

Also, I don't think Baelish turned on the Lannisters after they denied him the hand of Fair Sansa: remember, his opening move in Book 1 was to have Lysa kill Jon Arryn, then have her send a sister-coded message to implicate the Lannisters to the Starks. He followed up by pinning Bran's attempted assassination on ... the Lannisters. The whole plan was to create strife and war among Stark and Lannister. Something got Baelish fired up against the Lannisters, too it would seem, but his disappointment about not getting Sansa came much later in the game.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Catelyn (and the Starks and the Tullys) were put on Littlefinger's Revenge List right from the get-go.

Ah, interesting thought. I don't believe that LF was ever capable of loving. Lusting, yes.  But I don't think he can fathom true, sacrificial love. I am inclined to think that he still harbors some feelings for Catelyn, but perhaps it was in a more power hungry sense. 

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Something got Baelish fired up against the Lannisters, too it would seem, but his disappointment about not getting Sansa came much later in the game.

I see where you are going, and until we find out more information, it is just as likely that you are correct, but I am more apt to believe that the original intent was to sow discord between Stark and Lannister so a)Stark (and as you noted, possibly Tully downfall) and b) create chaos to advance his position in Westeros.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

Why would anyone say that? His name is Wyllas.

Quote

Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name.

Bran IV, Game 24

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bran IV, Game 24

?!?

Okay, to be clearer: "Hodor" is thus called because all he ever says is "hodor". Why would anyone assume that this is actually his name? At some point, Old Nan, who may be his grandmother or great-grandmother, notes that his name is Wyllis. Not Hodor. That was the point I was (too cryptically) trying to make.

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

but I am more apt to believe that the original intent was to sow discord between Stark and Lannister

Well, obviously. And I can see Baelish's selection of the Starks. Up for question is whether he also had some beef against the Lannisters that caused him to select them as a Stark foe. As you noted, we don't yet have enough information to tell.

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

Well, obviously. And I can see Baelish's selection of the Starks. Up for question is whether he also had some beef against the Lannisters that caused him to select them as a Stark foe. As you noted, we don't yet have enough information to tell.

Ultimately, Littlefinger is out for Littlefinger.  He wants to cause embarrassment, harm, and ruin to those who have embarrassed him, and he wants the recognition that he feels he was denied.  To boot, he wants the woman of his dreams - right now, Sansa appears to be that person.  But I think the reason it is Sansa is because she looks like Catelyn.  I know I have gotten some flack on other threads positing that I think he is going to rape Sansa, but it is completely in the realm of his character.  He has boasted about taking Catelyn's virginity a number for times - there is no way he is going to let the chance for Catelyn 2.0 (in his mind) to slip through his fingers.  I will admit, however, that I could see Sansa realizing this and having sex with Littlefinger as a manipulation tool. 

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14 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

He wants to cause embarrassment, harm, and ruin to those who have embarrassed him, and he wants the recognition that he feels he was denied.  To boot, he wants the woman of his dreams - right now, Sansa appears to be that person.  But I think the reason it is Sansa is because she looks like Catelyn.  I know I have gotten some flack on other threads positing that I think he is going to rape Sansa, but it is completely in the realm of his character. 

I agree! Sansa probably looks like Cat back when she was young and hadn't had five children yet. I, too, think that Petyr plans to have his way with Sansa. Maybe it will be a part of her "seductress training" - note that she's moving along well in the "flirty, play hard to get" curriculum already. Petyr probably knows all the tricks for making an "experienced" sex worker appear to be a virgin, so Sansa would retain her marriageability.

19 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I could see Sansa realizing this and having sex with Littlefinger as a manipulation tool.  

Could be. And it could work out, or end very badly for her. Very George RR Martinesque.

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@zandru Thank you! I don't want it to happen to her, obviously, but it is completely in line with where her character is headed.  There has been a lot of discussion on the Winds board regarding her chapters, the tournament, the gathering of knives and Harry the Heir.  I have a feeling that Littlefinger, right now, is acting like someone who doesn't know what his biggest weakness is - he doesn't realize it is Sansa.  He knows that he lusts for her, and I think he thinks he is ok with the machinations that he put in place with her and Harry the Heir, only to realize that he is not happy at all and then he does something rash, such as killing Harry or something very disruptive and counter to his perfectly laid plans.  

I mean, Littlefinger has been built up as this master manipulator, incredibly rationale and pragmatic, knowing which levers to pull to create the kind of chaos that he wants.  But he is human, and humans have blindspots. 

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57 minutes ago, zandru said:

?!?

Okay, to be clearer: "Hodor" is thus called because all he ever says is "hodor". Why would anyone assume that this is actually his name? At some point, Old Nan, who may be his grandmother or great-grandmother, notes that his name is Wyllis. Not Hodor. That was the point I was (too cryptically) trying to make.

Hodor’s real name is Walder. :cheers:

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3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hodor’s real name is Walder. :cheers:

Thanks for the correction! (I know I can trust your accuracy) - I was sure it started with a "W". Maybe I was thinking of That Which May Not Be Named (soon to return in April!!!)

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