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zoenerys

The hound saved Jeyne Poole

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22 hours ago, zoenerys said:

This is off topic and might be controversial, but IMO, Littlefinger wanted Sansa right from the beginning. When he first set eyes on her at the tourney. Seeing Sansa opened up so many new opportunities for him, that he could barely contain himself when speaking to her. He didn't replace Cat with Sansa in the eyrie, he did it in Kinglanding. Remember, Cersei's thoughts to herself that LF asked for her hand in marriage before she was married to Tyrion. Ergo, Cat was still alive!  He literally gave no shits about Cat anymore. It was all about Sansa and grooming her. Cat has too much baggage. Sansa is a blank slate in his mind.  

Kind of agree, but imo he did still care about Cat (hmm, not care, but lust/infatuation/obsession). When he saw Sansa at the tourney it was like he was that teenage boy again looking for kisses from this stunner. I think he was happy to have Sansa or Cat and tbh I don’t think he knew himself which he would rather have. Maybe he considered Sansa the upgraded model of Cat? :dunno: but I do think he still wanted Cat. Something about the one that got away, that prize he can never have, would infuriate a man like LF. He would want to possess her just to say he could. Same with Sansa. It’s all rooted in his anger at the Tully’s. He is running some kind of perverse revenge fantasy by controlling them and watching the become helpless nothings

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2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Kind of agree, but imo he did still care about Cat (hmm, not care, but lust/infatuation/obsession). When he saw Sansa at the tourney it was like he was that teenage boy again looking for kisses from this stunner. I think he was happy to have Sansa or Cat and tbh I don’t think he knew himself which he would rather have. Maybe he considered Sansa the upgraded model of Cat? :dunno: but I do think he still wanted Cat. Something about the one that got away, that prize he can never have, would infuriate a man like LF. He would want to possess her just to say he could. Same with Sansa. It’s all rooted in his anger at the Tully’s. He is running some kind of perverse revenge fantasy by controlling them and watching the become helpless nothings

Oh, he cared alright.

I personally think that LF's "love" for Cat reversed after she didn't respond to his letter, and became hate. He's still obsessed with her, but is extremely bitter that she dared to reject him. I think Lysa's comments to Sansa about Cat's (alleged) treatment of LF back in the day are very telling on how Petyr himself feels. In his mind, she purposely played and enjoyed making a fool of him. There's nothing he can stand less than being played. His ego will not allow it. He must have the upper hand, always. His superior intelligence must prevail. 

Another example of this is with Tyrion, At first involving him in his plot was nothing personal, but after Tyrion outsmarted him with that SR ploy, it became very personal. LF actively tried to harm Tyrion because of this. It was because of Jaime intervening that he wasn't killed. 

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5 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ultimately, Littlefinger is out for Littlefinger.  He wants to cause embarrassment, harm, and ruin to those who have embarrassed him, and he wants the recognition that he feels he was denied.  To boot, he wants the woman of his dreams - right now, Sansa appears to be that person.  But I think the reason it is Sansa is because she looks like Catelyn.  I know I have gotten some flack on other threads positing that I think he is going to rape Sansa, but it is completely in the realm of his character.  He has boasted about taking Catelyn's virginity a number for times - there is no way he is going to let the chance for Catelyn 2.0 (in his mind) to slip through his fingers.  I will admit, however, that I could see Sansa realizing this and having sex with Littlefinger as a manipulation tool. 

I have to disagree. He has no problem molesting Sansa, clearly, but no way would he force her to go all the way, and, I really don't think actually having sex with LF would help her manipulate him in any way. It would actually hurt her, and here's why: it's not the deed that gets him off, it's the chase. The reason he wanted Cat so badly is because she was emotionally unavailable to him. It's like Robert and Lyanna. He wanted her so much because he couldn't have her. He would've forgotten Cat had she actually loved him back and he would throw Sansa away just the same. The best option for Sansa to manipulate LF would be for her to be to never consummate the relation. 

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12 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I have to disagree. He has no problem molesting Sansa, clearly, but no way would he force her to go all the way, and, I really don't think actually having sex with LF would help her manipulate him in any way. It would actually hurt her, and here's why: it's not the deed that gets him off, it's the chase. The reason he wanted Cat so badly is because she was emotionally unavailable to him. It's like Robert and Lyanna. He wanted her so much because he couldn't have her. He would've forgotten Cat had she actually loved him back and he would throw Sansa away just the same. The best option for Sansa to manipulate LF would be for her to be to never consummate the relation. 

Interesting perspective. I admit the chase aspect has merit but I think you are greatly underestimating his obsession with Catelyn. He fought a duel for her hand in which he almost died. I don’t think that is the action of someone only interested in the chase. 

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46 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I think Lysa's comments to Sansa about Cat's (alleged) treatment of LF back in the day are very telling on how Petyr himself feels. In his mind, she purposely played and enjoyed making a fool of him. There's nothing he can stand less than being played. His ego will not allow it.

This sounds very convincing. I'd like to add that Littlefinger would much rather convince himself that Catelyn had been toying with him all along than to admit to himself that the reason she never responded was that she really didn't care that much for him. That, compared to her new husband and her new responsibilities, he was just a kid from her past, something kind of pathetic to be left behind. Baelish may have assumed that Catelyn had read his letter and laughed, or sneered and had probably told all her friends, old and new. He wouldn't have allowed for the possibility that she had thrown the letter away, unread.

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On 12/17/2018 at 10:50 AM, Seams said:

The three victors at the Hand's Tourney, held in honor of Ned Stark's arrival in King's Landing, arguably all end up doing things to support Stark interests: Anguy wins the archery contest, Thoros of Myr wins the melee, and The Hound "wins" the jousting when Ser Loras concedes to him in thanks for saving him from Ser Gregor. At various points, the Hound protects Sansa and Arya and, as you point out, Jeyne Poole. Anguy and Thoros join the Brotherhood Without Banners which was created by Ned and which, later, serves Lady Stoneheart. The BwB also picks up Arya for awhile and brings her together with the Hound.

Within the first book I think there's supposed to be more of an irony that someone like the Hound kills innocent Mycah, then wins the jousting tourney (because Loras Tyrell concedes in gratitude), then participates in the coup against Ned Stark (personally killing Cayn) and gets rewarded by replacing Barristan Selmy (one of the greatest knights in Westerosi history) in the kingsguard. Anguy isn't mentioned again beyond refusing the offer to join Ned's (doomed) guard, although admittedly Ned gets Thoros to join Beric in the force sent after the Mountain. Sansa has an idealized vision of knighthood in which beautiful & good (with the two traits closely intertwined) as the proper heroes of the stories. Sandor is ugly in appearance, speech and action but is named to the most exclusive order of knighthood (despite not even being a knight) because he serves the Lannisters, and they won despite being the baddies behind the force she wanted Loras Tyrell to defeat in the Riverlands.

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On 12/18/2018 at 2:40 PM, zandru said:

?!?

Okay, to be clearer: "Hodor" is thus called because all he ever says is "hodor". Why would anyone assume that this is actually his name? At some point, Old Nan, who may be his grandmother or great-grandmother, notes that his name is Wyllis. Not Hodor. That was the point I was (too cryptically) trying to make.

My point is only that the George was already hinting at the Theon-Ramsay sub plot. 

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4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My point is only that the George was already hinting at the Theon-Ramsay sub plot. 

Cool! "You have to know your name!" Sorry I missed that one completely. Very perceptive! (Unlike myself...)

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