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zoenerys

The hound saved Jeyne Poole

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I was rereading a Sansa chapter in GOT for fun and I caught this comment: 

Quote

The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Poole inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said.

Everyone else from the Stark household, besides Sansa Stark herself, were killed, but for some reason Jeyne was saved. Later on Boros or Meryn (i don't remember which), commented that they didn't know what to do with her. They obviously settled on putting her in Sansa's room. Cersei immediately demanded her to be removed from Sansa when she found out. So clearly they weren't ordered to keep her there.

I think that by this point, The Hound's loyalties have started to switch to Sansa.

Another thing is the parallel of Sandor and Littlefinger. Sandor saves Jeyne's life and after Littlefinger dooms her to a fate worse than death. 

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4 hours ago, zoenerys said:

Everyone else from the Stark household, besides Sansa Stark herself, were killed, but for some reason Jeyne was saved. Later on Boros or Meryn (i don't remember which), commented that they didn't know what to do with her. They obviously settled on putting her in Sansa's room. Cersei immediately demanded her to be removed from Sansa when she found out. So clearly they weren't ordered to keep her there.

 

It is probable that GRRM already had the fArya plot in mind when he wrote Jeyne's character. Why else have her disappear out of the narrative like so much other character detritus only to have her suddenly reappear as the central pillar of the northern plot?

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17 hours ago, zoenerys said:

I was rereading a Sansa chapter in GOT for fun and I caught this comment: 

Everyone else from the Stark household, besides Sansa Stark herself, were killed, but for some reason Jeyne was saved. Later on Boros or Meryn (i don't remember which), commented that they didn't know what to do with her. They obviously settled on putting her in Sansa's room. Cersei immediately demanded her to be removed from Sansa when she found out. So clearly they weren't ordered to keep her there.

I think that by this point, The Hound's loyalties have started to switch to Sansa.

Another thing is the parallel of Sandor and Littlefinger. Sandor saves Jeyne's life and after Littlefinger dooms her to a fate worse than death. 

Very nice. 

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13 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

It is probable that GRRM already had the fArya plot in mind when he wrote Jeyne's character. Why else have her disappear out of the narrative like so much other character detritus only to have her suddenly reappear as the central pillar of the northern plot?

I would think so. And the line in an early Game chapter where Bran recall Theon saying that at least Hodor knows his name strongly suggests that whole subplot had been worked out from the get go. 

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15 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

It is probable that GRRM already had the fArya plot in mind when he wrote Jeyne's character. Why else have her disappear out of the narrative like so much other character detritus only to have her suddenly reappear as the central pillar of the northern plot?

I agree that's the real world reason, but I was thinking more along the lines of in-character motivations. 

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The three victors at the Hand's Tourney, held in honor of Ned Stark's arrival in King's Landing, arguably all end up doing things to support Stark interests: Anguy wins the archery contest, Thoros of Myr wins the melee, and The Hound "wins" the jousting when Ser Loras concedes to him in thanks for saving him from Ser Gregor. At various points, the Hound protects Sansa and Arya and, as you point out, Jeyne Poole. Anguy and Thoros join the Brotherhood Without Banners which was created by Ned and which, later, serves Lady Stoneheart. The BwB also picks up Arya for awhile and brings her together with the Hound.

I think Jeyne Poole somehow represents the sacred pool by the heart tree in the Winterfell godswood. Similarly, Beth Cassel may symbolize the Winterfell castle. Palla, daughter of the Winterfell kennelmaster, may also represent an aspect of Winterfell that can be captured and abused. Details in Theon chapters (Turncloak and Reek) in ADwD indicate that Theon sees Jeyne as a reason to live and a source of redemption after his turncloak and Reek experiences. Maybe there is a hint of that in the Hound's involvement with her, too.

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32 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I agree that's the real world reason, but I was thinking more along the lines of in-character motivations. 

 

Sandor was in love with Sansa. He knew Jeyne being killed would upset her. He had the power to do something about it and did (just like he tried to spirit Sansa away later). I figured you already knew that since you noted that Sandor had switched loyalties by then.

 

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think Jeyne Poole somehow represents the sacred pool by the heart tree in the Winterfell godswood. Similarly, Beth Cassel may symbolize the Winterfell castle. Palla, daughter of the Winterfell kennelmaster, may also represent an aspect of Winterfell that can be captured and abused. Details in Theon chapters (Turncloak and Reek) in ADwD indicate that Theon sees Jeyne as a reason to live and a source of redemption after his turncloak and Reek experiences. Maybe there is a hint of that in the Hound's involvement with her, too.

 

Since Theon sees himself as little more than one of Ramsey's hounds at this point I'd say that the parallel is rather stark.

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3 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

Sandor was in love with Sansa. He knew Jeyne being killed would upset her. He had the power to do something about it and did (just like he tried to spirit Sansa away later). I figured you already knew that since you noted that Sandor had switched loyalties by then.

I agree with you. He was obviously in love with her. What do you think of the parallel I suggested with LF and Sandor? Compared to LF, The Hound looks damn near altruistic.  

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7 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I agree with you. He was obviously in love with her. What do you think of the parallel I suggested with LF and Sandor? Compared to LF, The Hound looks damn near altruistic.  

 

Lol! Compared to LF even Cersei looks altruistic. She had that momentary flash of compassion for all those dwarves she was killing in order to get to Tyrion. It passed quickly, but at least she had it for an instant.

It's quite possible that Sandor was on to LF (or at least suspicious) and was trying to get Sansa away for that reason too. He thought that LF was still a Lannister creature at that point and I'm sure didn't like any attention he was paying Sansa. There is no direct textual evidence of this, but it would make sense as to why Sandor was willing to abandon the Lannisters so blatantly. He probably could have wormed his way out of abandoning his post at the city walls during the battle, but deserting his sworn oath to his liege is a sure death sentence. You have to be motivated to do that.

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1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

 

Lol! Compared to LF even Cersei looks altruistic. She had that momentary flash of compassion for all those dwarves she was killing in order to get to Tyrion. It passed quickly, but at least she had it for an instant.

It's quite possible that Sandor was on to LF (or at least suspicious) and was trying to get Sansa away for that reason too. He thought that LF was still a Lannister creature at that point and I'm sure didn't like any attention he was paying Sansa. There is no direct textual evidence of this, but it would make sense as to why Sandor was willing to abandon the Lannisters so blatantly. He probably could have wormed his way out of abandoning his post at the city walls during the battle, but deserting his sworn oath to his liege is a sure death sentence. You have to be motivated to do that.

Haha. 

On your second point, I'm not sure. I feel that if he was suspicious of anyone it would be Dontos. Littlefinger never directly contacted Sansa in ACOK as far as I know. Especially not in public, either. The only way i'd see him knowing about LF's plans is: he has followed Sansa into the godswood w/o her knowing, saw Dontos, and than followed Dontos to wherever LF was and saw Dontos report to him. That kind of seems far fetched to me and I don't think Sandor is a literal stalker. He knows she's lying about the godswood, but he doesn't pry or force out the info. He seems to respect her privacy.  

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10 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

Haha. 

On your second point, I'm not sure. I feel that if he was suspicious of anyone it would be Dontos. Littlefinger never directly contacted Sansa in ACOK as far as I know. Especially not in public, either. The only way i'd see him knowing about LF's plans is: he has followed Sansa into the godswood w/o her knowing, saw Dontos, and than followed Dontos to wherever LF was and saw Dontos report to him. That kind of seems far fetched to me and I don't think Sandor is a literal stalker. He knows she's lying about the godswood, but he doesn't pry or force out the info. He seems to respect her privacy.  

 

LF was around court until he was granted Harrenhal IIRC, so he had plenty of time after Ned's death to "play nice" to Sansa without seeming too schemey, just "interested in her welfare". If LF has one flaw, it's that he underestimates certain types of people. I'm pretty sure if you asked him before the Blackwater if he thought the Hound would desert, he'd have said "No way". As I said, there's no textual evidence, it's just a brain tease.

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1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

 

LF was around court until he was granted Harrenhal IIRC, so he had plenty of time after Ned's death to "play nice" to Sansa without seeming too schemey, just "interested in her welfare". If LF has one flaw, it's that he underestimates certain types of people. I'm pretty sure if you asked him before the Blackwater if he thought the Hound would desert, he'd have said "No way". As I said, there's no textual evidence, it's just a brain tease.

I thought he left to go negotiate with the Tyrells?

My reading of LF before the Purple Wedding;  he didn't want to be seen as having anything to do with Sansa by anyone. He went to great lengths for no one (not even Sansa) to find out who had spirited her away. If he had been seen showing her any support directly, in public, his plans would've failed. Varys or someone would've found out. This is why I think the show's plot line with them is a horrible disservice to his character, especially. LF is waaay smarter than that. Littlefinger is in the long game when it comes to her and was willing to wait. JMO

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16 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I thought he left to go negotiate with the Tyrells?

My reading of LF before the Purple Wedding;  he didn't want to be seen as having anything to do with Sansa by anyone. He went to great lengths for no one (not even Sansa) to find out who had spirited her away. If he had been seen showing her any support directly, in public, his plans would've failed. Varys or someone would've found out. This is why I think the show's plot line with them is a horrible disservice to his character, especially. LF is waaay smarter than that. Littlefinger is in the long game when it comes to her and was willing to wait. JMO

 

He did, because he never had any intention of setting foot in Harrenhal. It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure that all happened around the same time.

LF had to make some effort to gain Sansa's basic trust at least. He was the one to put a knife to her father's throat remember? Otherwise, why would she be willing to trust him right after he had her only friend shot just for doing what he was told to do by the man who had him shot? Granted, they are in the middle of the bay and she hasn't much choice, but LF wants Sansa to trust him.

Edited by Trefayne
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9 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

He did, because he never had any intention of setting foot in Harrenhal. It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure that all happened around the same time.

LF had to make some effort to gain Sansa's basic trust at least. He was the one to put a knife to her father's throat remember? Otherwise, why would she be willing to trust him right after he had her only friend shot just for doing what he was told to do by the man who had him shot? Granted, they are in the middle of the bay and she hasn't much choice, but LF wants Sansa to trust him.

He got Harrenhal because of a successful negotiation of the Tyrells. He didn't get Harrenhal before that.

Yes, of course, but Sansa doesn't know that! She was locked in her room at the time. She was kept in the dark about alot of things going on in Kingslanding (her marriage to Tyrion for example).

He does do something. Only when he gets Sansa in his clutches, away from everyone in KL who might get in the way. He immediately tells her "Dontos was a drunk who would betray you, don't worry about him. BTW I loved your mother. I took her virginity. You can totally trust me! Who cares if Tyrion was innocent? He gang raped his first wife, and would do worse to you, given time." Sansa even thinks to herself in AFFC that Littlefinger did nothing to help her while she was in KL. "Littlefinger never lifted his little finger for her,"  

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21 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

He got Harrenhal because of a successful negotiation of the Tyrells. He didn't get Harrenhal before that.

 

Yes, in ASoS. Then he was sent to the Vale, but didn't go. So, as I said, he didn't leave court (permanently) until he was granted Harrenhal. I was just fuzzy on the Tyrell thing until I just looked it up. Sorry about that.

 

29 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

He does do something. Only when he gets Sansa in his clutches, away from everyone in KL who might get in the way. He immediately tells her "Dontos was a drunk who would betray you, don't worry about him. BTW I loved your mother. I took her virginity. You can totally trust me! Who cares if Tyrion was innocent? He gang raped his first wife, and would do worse to you, given time." Sansa even thinks to herself in AFFC that Littlefinger did nothing to help her while she was in KL. "Littlefinger never lifted his little finger for her,"  

 

All true, but none of that removes the fact that LF wants Sansa to trust him. With good reason too. There is much to distrust as Sansa is learning by the time she makes that realization. She knows he killed Joffery and did just recently watch him toss Lysa out of the moon door and blame it on Marillion. She can really get him in a lot of hot water if she decides to talk to somebody. All the Vale lords need is a solid reason to challenge him. As soon as Sansa stops being afraid for herself, she might just do that.

And sure, I can believe that LF didn't do anything outright to help Sansa in KL with Cersei and Joff hovering around her like buzzards. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't have spoken to her when it looked appropriate. Again, just spit-balling here.

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@Trefayne and @zoenerys

A couple of other thoughts on Littlefinger (not revolutionary, but a few connections that I think get neglected)

1. Littlefinger lusted (and he thinks loved, though I doubt he is capable of that, truly) after Catelyn and was denied due to his station.  He was then thoroughly embarassed by Brandon Stark.  I think this drove his already clever yet not wise mind into higher ambitions - not only to rise above his station and secure higher recognition, but also I think he had a larger goal in mind: the demise of House Stark. 
2. I think with Ned dead, he had originally hoped to marry Catelyn, but quickly realized that she would never return his affections (I think occured during the chapters with Catelyn in Renly's encampment during Clash.) So, he turned his sights to Sansa.
3. Ceresi notes in Dance, right before she was about to do her walk of atonement,  that after Joffrey set aside Sansa, Littlefinger had offered to marry her himself, but that he was disregarded because he was much too lowborn.  I think it was at this moment that Littlefinger started working further with the Tyrell's to murder Joffrey.  The Lannister's had now scorned him just as the Starks had, and their demise was now part of the grand scheme, too.

 

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@Lady Rhodes

Good observations, but I think that the downfall of the Lannisters was part of the plan all along (whether for revenge or just collateral damage) since LF was urging Lysa to blame the Lannisters for JA's death in the first place. Otherwise, we don't get Catelyn acting rash and subsequently starting a war. At this point I have to believe that it probably was LF who either directly or indirectly put the bug in JA's ear about the incest in the first place.

Either that or it was Bloodraven. Everything is always Bloodraven's fault! :rolleyes:

Edited by Trefayne
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