Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[St Daga]

36 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We are explicitly told Lysa was fertile, we don't know that was the reason for the wedding, but why else include this?  And she is Jon's third wife after the first two did not produce living children.  Which really makes me wonder if her and Peter have a living child we haven't figured out yet. 

And there was another quote about this marriage being the price House Tully paid for support (not the other way around).

If Jon wanted his own child for an heir, this is strange timing.  More likely his heirs death prompted the wedding. 

 

4 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

A lot of the idea about the timing of the wedding comes down to why Jon Arryn married Lysa? Did he need a proven breeder since his heir had just died (so after the Battle of the Bells) or did he marry her to secure an army and save Hoster the shame of a ruined daughter. Although, she was no longer pregnant and no one would really know if she was a virgin or not, so Lysa still could have found herself a decent husband. Cersei was no virgin (although this was certainly not common knowledge) when she married a king and the world didn't stop turning. You don't make a much better marriage than that, maidenhead or no!

There is also the text where Ned spend two weeks with Cat. 

You both bring up the strongest reasons why the wedding could be after the Battle of the Bells, and I have considered them both. Honestly, it's hard to imagine that Ned would take two weeks of honeymoon time in the sack with Cat (although she seems to think Robb was conceived on the first time???) instead of hurrying south to meet up with Robert, who was surrounded and in dire straits at Stoney Sept. 

And it makes sense for Jon Arryn to need to produce an heir if his last heir was killed at Stoney Sept. But Jon Arryn might have also realized that there was no guarantee that his heir would survive the war (he had already lost one heir to Aerys) so it  might have made sense  to marry a proven fertile woman as soon as possible and if he produces an heir, great, and if he doesn't, he can hope that Denys Arryn survives the rebellion.

One of the reasons I can see that the wedding happened before the Battle of the Bells is that it hardly makes sense to march  a huge army south to Stoney Sept, then back north for a wedding at Riverrun, and then back south and to the east to eventually battle at the Trident. They might have done this, but the logistics of marching a large host willy nilly around the riverlands doesn't make much sense.

I have considered the possibility that Ned split his forces, much like Robb did, and Ned took a small force to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept while the main northern and vale armies were still marching, or marching to a different location. Actually, this does make some sense, because the rebel forces put the crown forces into disarray and on the run after Stoney Sept, so why not pursue them and end the war as soon as possible. So, in this scenario, I can see Ned not taking the time to marry Cat before he went to rescue Robert, then circling back while the rebel army was also organizing. It must have been a huge host of men from the north, stormlands, vale and riverlands.

This also makes some sense as to why the armies eventually battled at the Trident. What if the majority of the northern force still needed to cross the Trident. We see hints of this with Roose's portion of the northern army battling to cross the Trident against Lannister/crown forces during The War of the Five Kings.

I can see possibilities for both arguments! I have wondered of the vagueness of the ASOIAF text is the reason GRRM felt like he needed to use the World Book to clarify some of the timeline!!!

[JNR]

37 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Was Elia pregnant while at Harrenhal for the tourney? It seems unlikely that she was close to her due date and traveling and even more unlikely that she had just given birth and was traveling. Rhaenys's birth laid her up for 6 months. Unless that is a flat out lie?

Good point; I don't think it's a mistake or lie.

The source is Connington, who (a) would know, and (b) is thinking privately to himself and has no reason to lie to himself:

Quote

After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her.

So, yes, I agree with you that it seems pretty improbable that Elia was either at Harrenhal while heavily pregnant with Aegon (a thing mentioned by no one in canon at any time), or that she had just given birth to Aegon.

I think Elia was healthy and comfortable exactly because Aegon's birth was nowhere near the tourney... which probably means Yandel was fudging that situation to please Robert.

[SirArthur]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

I think Elia was healthy and comfortable exactly because Aegon's birth was nowhere near the tourney... which probably means Yandel was fudging that situation to please Robert.

Where was Aegon during the tourney then ? The best answer is with Elia. The same goes for Rhaenys. 

I have a hard time imagine Elia at the tourney at all, when she almost died birthing Aegon.  For me the post Harrenhal birth in Mar/Apr 282 is more logical.

Also Rhaenys was born in 280 with the half year afterwards, where Elia was bound to bed. Making 281 a really close year.

[Lady Rhodes]

I got caught up in other threads, and now I am trying to catch up with this one!! Two points from my previous thread:

1.If Lord Rickard was riding south to the wedding in Riverrun with 200 men, it would seem that this wedding would be of enough importance for Ned to attend, who was already out of the treacherous Mountains of the Moon and in the Riverlands. But we know that Ned was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head.  I point this out to say that I don't think the wedding was to occur soon after the tournament of Harrenhal.  I think there was a gap in time, which is why I think Brandon was riding south, not west.

2.Previously noted, the rebellion is marked at starting when Jon Arryn raised his banners and it is also noted as having ended at the Sack of King’s Landing, with the whole thing lasting a year. 

I think there is a deliberate attempt to make certain events seem closer together and further apart than they actually were.

I agree with some posters that commented on the theory - a lot of the time discrepancy can be attributed to the war being during winter and it would have affected travel times, but also, there is too much time between Harrenhal and children's births.  I still believe a baby was conceived at Harrenhal, but I don't know who.  OR, someone is older than they think.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not so sure about that, or I think it's possible that Eddard was with them at the time. When Catelyn and Brynden Blackfish first arrive at Moat Cailin, we hear this:

Cat says the first time she saw Moat Cailin, Ned assured her that the ruin was formidable. I would think the first time Cat saw Moat Cailin would be when she and Robb were coming north. There is nothing explicit in the text to conform either way, but it makes sense that Ned would escort his wife and heir to their new home himself.

I am not saying Luwin might not have accompanied them, but he might not have, either. Cat does tell us that Luwin delivered all of her children, and she tells us that Robb was born at Riverrun, so Luwin must have been at Riverrun for the delivery. IF Catelyn is to be trusted in this statement. After all, she tells us in her first couple chapters that all the weirwoods were cut down in the south by the Andals, and that the godswood at Riverrun was a place bright and airy, a place of giant redwoods, birds and spicy flowers. She alludes to no weirwood being at Riverrun, but by her final chapter in Game, we see Robb and his northmen praying in front of the weirwood heart tree at Riverrun, the very place she grew up. I find her memories quite questionable. 

Anyway, I think it is possible that Ned himself escorted Cat to Winterfell after the war was over. All we hear from Cat is that Jon and his wet nurse were already at Winterfell when she and Robb arrived, but nothing to indicate if she arrived before, after or with Eddard. But if Ned did escort her north, then it does shift your timeline somewhat, although it would all be after the war had ended.

I guess an argument can be made that when Cat first saw Moat Cailin she thought it was a messy ruin and it was only later that Ned told her that it was quite formidable. As much of the text is, this is also rather vague.

It's quite possible that Ned swung by Riverrun on his way back from Starfall to collect Catelyn, and if that's true it's a pretty incredible fact to discredit Jon Snow as Rhaegar and Lyanna's child! Because if Ned brought Jon with him from Starfall, he wouldn't have been at Winterfell before Catelyn arrived! Bravo St Daga! Great find!

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

From the SSM, Aegon had Targaryen features and his sister was more Dornish.  It is conceivable that a swap fooled Gregor once, less so that it fooled everyone for a year. 

How many people at court actually pay much attention to babies? All Varys had to do was find a similar looking child. I really don't think fooling everyone for a year would've been that hard.

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

The text of the novels is rather vague on this point. I waver for the wedding being before or after the Battle of the Bells. I used to (three days ago) think it had to be afterwards. That is what the World Book tells us, and whether it's accurate or not, the World Book seems to promote an official timeline of certain events, and the timing of Ned and Cat's wedding is one of them. 

It is possible that Ned agreed to marry Cat via raven, or even in the way that Robb did, by giving his word but never even laying an eye on his perspective bride, but just gathering an army and marching away. Ned might have even had the upper hand with Hoster, saying if you don't march with me, there is no way I am marrying your daughter. Hoster wanted a great alliance for his daughters. Heck, he hoped for Jaime for Lysa, so he definitely had ambition. For some reason, although the text never indicates, I get the impression that Ned didn't love his father-in-law.

A lot of the idea about the timing of the wedding comes down to why Jon Arryn married Lysa? Did he need a proven breeder since his heir had just died (so after the Battle of the Bells) or did he marry her to secure an army and save Hoster the shame of a ruined daughter. Although, she was no longer pregnant and no one would really know if she was a virgin or not, so Lysa still could have found herself a decent husband. Cersei was no virgin (although this was certainly not common knowledge) when she married a king and the world didn't stop turning. You don't make a much better marriage than that, maidenhead or no!

One of the biggest reasons why Jon Arryn would marry Lyssa would be to bind his House with Tully's, otherwise it's just an agreement between Stark and Tully. I think the possibility of an heir would also be very appealing, since he'd been married twice before without issue.

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather Crystal since you believe Lyanna could be Wenda and Layna - what would you think about Lyanna being Lanna? She is a white from Peach, the brothel Robert hide during Stony Sept - Battle of Bells, where he had his bastard, Bella. Leslyn, another whore, tells Arya that Bella's mother was Robert's mother but she is never identified - Tom of Sevens also has a son there, is Tom supposed to be Rhaegar here?, is it possible for KB to have ties to Peach? And is Renly's peach is a clue? 

+ I am searching for fawns in Asoiaf and I think the only house with a fawn in their sigil is House Cafferen 

Wend names are more common for Manderlys and there is also a Qartheen Pureblood Wendello (am I surprised? no.) 

I would think Robert would have seen Lyanna if she was hiding as Lanna, but it really depends upon the timing. Ser Gregor and his men had been searching for the Knight of the Laughing Tree since the tourney at Harrenhal. Whereas Robert was at the Peach during the battle at Stoney Sept months later, so long answer short - I don't think so.

Edited to add: I think Lanna, the peach, and Robert being there at that brothel was a type of echo of the past. The wheel of time keeps circling and events replay over and over. I do suspect Robert played a part in Lyanna's disappearance whether he was aware of it or not.

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We are explicitly told Lysa was fertile, we don't know that was the reason for the wedding, but why else include this?  And she is Jon's third wife after the first two did not produce living children.  Which really makes me wonder if her and Peter have a living child we haven't figured out yet. 

And there was another quote about this marriage being the price House Tully paid for support (not the other way around).

If Jon wanted his own child for an heir, this is strange timing.  More likely his heirs death prompted the wedding. 

I'm not sure Lyssa's forced abortion was public news, unless Hoster was frank with Jon Arryn. Would it be a "selling" point? Maybe. 

Not sure about the marriage being a price Hoster paid. I'd be interested in learning more about that reason.

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I guess both things are possible. Rhaegar might have sent his new born son to safety soon after birth, and placed another infant in his place. At a later time, Varys, not knowing this, could have swapped that imposter baby out for the child known as the Pisswater Prince. From one of Oberyn's recollections about how Elia and oohed and awed over a rather ugly baby Tyrion, she seems likely to have been able to love or care for a child who was not her own, and possibly fight Gregor Clegane to save said child, even if she didn't give birth to it. Any child, perhaps!

But Aegon's birth time is confusing. Was Elia pregnant while at Harrenhal for the tourney? It seems unlikely that she was close to her due date and traveling and even more unlikely that she had just given birth and was traveling. Rhaenys's birth laid her up for 6 months. Unless that is a flat out lie? I suppose Elia could have been in a more early stage of her pregnancy at Harrenhal.

Even if Aegon is born 15 months after Rhaenys (6 months of bed rest for Elia and 9 months of pregnancy), Aegon could have been born in 281, possibly on this timeline, then does Elia really leave both her children behind while she attends the Tourney at Harrenhal, and was she even well enough to do so? I suppose it's possible, but there are so many unknowns.

I guess I was assuming Elia was at the tourney at Harrenhal, because people were expecting Rhaegar to place the crown of Love and Beauty on her head, but Rhaegar famously passes her by. So if she's at the tourney, was she carrying newborn Aegon with her, or was she yet pregnant? If she was yet pregnant there was no way for Rhaegar to know that the delivery would just about kill her and have any desire for a second wife. If she was yet pregnant then Rhaegar's disappearance after Harrenhal was to be with Elia on Dragonstone for the birth, and if that is the case, did they remain there until Rhaegar returned from the south? Is that how Elia got back to Kings Landing, only to be taken hostage by Aerys? And how much time does that leave for Rhaegar to abduct Lyanna? To me it makes more sense that Aegon was only a few months old at the Harrenhal tourney, and roughly 18-20 months old when Gregor dashed his head against the wall.

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

 is it possible for KB to have ties to Peach? And is Renly's peach is a clue? 

I went over this when I read it the first time. Somehow Renly always tries to communicate with objects, here the Peach, there the rose locklet with an image of Margaery supposed to look like Lyanna. As if he knows something. I don't know if he uses more objects in communication. 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I went over this when I read it the first time. Somehow Renly always tries to communicate with objects, here the Peach, there the rose locklet with an image of Margaery supposed to look like Lyanna. As if he knows something. I don't know if he uses more objects in communication. 

Peaches are symbolic of immortality, rebirth, and fertility. Stannis refused Renly's peach and killed him with his shadow. Symbolically Stannis discarded Renly's offer of peaceful coexistence and life by refusing the peach. Stannis said he often thinks about that peach.

[SirArthur]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Peaches are symbolic of immortality, rebirth, and fertility. Stannis refused Renly's peach and killed him with his shadow. Symbolically Stannis discarded Renly's offer of peaceful coexistence and life by refusing the peach. Stannis said he often thinks about that peach.

Somehow I feel, that Peach (the location) is also a symbol in this interpretation.

[Lady Rhodes]

45 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I went over this when I read it the first time. Somehow Renly always tries to communicate with objects, here the Peach, there the rose locklet with an image of Margaery supposed to look like Lyanna. As if he knows something. I don't know if he uses more objects in communication. 

Something I always wondered about this was whether Renky was in on Jon Arryn and Stannis’ suspicisons. He was clearly in communication with the Tyrells (presumably through Loras) and I wonder how deep that conspiracy went

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

.If Lord Rickard was riding south to the wedding in Riverrun with 200 men, it would seem that this wedding would be of enough importance for Ned to attend, who was already out of the treacherous Mountains of the Moon and in the Riverlands. But we know that Ned was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head.  I point this out to say that I don't think the wedding was to occur soon after the tournament of Harrenhal.  I think there was a gap in time, which is why I think Brandon was riding south, not west.

One thing that gets forgotten every now and then was that Brandon went down to Riverrun early to fight his duel with Littlefinger. Thus it would make sense for Rickard to be coming down a little later. That also gives us two extra weeks for Ned to stay in the Vale. I think that Lyanna disappeared, Brandon sent a letter or a runner to his dad, alerting him that he was going to the capitol to figure it out. Knowing how his son is an idiot like that, Rickard tells Ned to stay in the Vale and await updates. Then Rickard rides on to his fate. 

 

What bugs me about this situation is who told Brandon that Rhaegar had Lyanna? 

[Janneyc1]

Also I have seen the idea that Aerys and Targs in general were sacrificing children to hatch dragons, can anyone send me a link to explain how that entire situation works? It just strikes me as odd that Rhaegar would have participated in that. 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thing that gets forgotten every now and then was that Brandon went down to Riverrun early to fight his duel with Littlefinger. Thus it would make sense for Rickard to be coming down a little later. That also gives us two extra weeks for Ned to stay in the Vale. I think that Lyanna disappeared, Brandon sent a letter or a runner to his dad, alerting him that he was going to the capitol to figure it out. Knowing how his son is an idiot like that, Rickard tells Ned to stay in the Vale and await updates. Then Rickard rides on to his fate. 

 

What bugs me about this situation is who told Brandon that Rhaegar had Lyanna? 

I didn’t think he came early to fight Littlefinger. Branson is lord heir to Winterfell and Baelish was some boy from the fingers. I am pretty sure that Littlefinger challenged Brandon when he already arrived.

I think Littlefinger May have sent the tip though re Lyanna when he was going back the Fingers. Maybe hoping to delay the marriage?

[Lady Rhodes]

58 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Also I have seen the idea that Aerys and Targs in general were sacrificing children to hatch dragons, can anyone send me a link to explain how that entire situation works? It just strikes me as odd that Rhaegar would have participated in that. 

I believe it was in Heresy 210 A babe in the woods or  211 eight cairns. 

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

How many people at court actually pay much attention to babies? All Varys had to do was find a similar looking child. I really don't think fooling everyone for a year would've been that hard.

Aegon had purple eyes, hard to find another boy with those.  There were doubts about the boy Gregor killed being Aegon (Kevin if I remember right) and that was a corpse with a smashed head seen once.  Fooling everyone with a live boy for a year would be impossible. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Somehow I feel, that Peach (the location) is also a symbol in this interpretation.

IMO GRRM is making a statement about the medieval practice of marriage arrangements. The Lords use their daughters to make alliances to other Houses or to gain favor at court. GRRM has likened the practice (symbolically) to that of a pimp looking for Johns for his prostitute. The highborn maidens don't get a choice or say in the matter and often are forced into marriages with disastrous consequences, like how Lady Hornwood ate her own fingers, because the Boltons starved her.

My suspicion is that the Peach is a castle. Since the peach is symbolic of fertility, I'd say it's a castle with many beds or daughters, or has produced many daughters over the years for the Lords that have lived there. I'd have to really study the surrounding text for additional clues in order to see if I can figure out the location or family.

If you've read my (thus far) interpretation of the Cat of the Canals chapter you may recall that I theorized that GRRM is telling a second story using metaphors, thus 1) ships are places, 2) going to a harbor means to take a specific action, 3) pushing barrows is offering up "the goods", 4) brothels are castles, 5) prostitutes are highborn maidens, 6) clams are vaginas, 7) oysters are wombs, and 8) pearls are the cultured babies, and in Aerys and Rhaella's case, are referred to as "dragon seeds" and used for sacrifice in their attempts to hatch dragon eggs.  

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thing that gets forgotten every now and then was that Brandon went down to Riverrun early to fight his duel with Littlefinger. Thus it would make sense for Rickard to be coming down a little later. That also gives us two extra weeks for Ned to stay in the Vale. I think that Lyanna disappeared, Brandon sent a letter or a runner to his dad, alerting him that he was going to the capitol to figure it out. Knowing how his son is an idiot like that, Rickard tells Ned to stay in the Vale and await updates. Then Rickard rides on to his fate. 

 

What bugs me about this situation is who told Brandon that Rhaegar had Lyanna? 

I have a theory for this. There are a few examples to insert first. 

Example #1: After Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, Tywin called his banners and sent out Ser Gregor Clegane to raid the riverlands, but curiously he and his men rode under cover of night, without banners: 

Quote

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage— and Ned did not doubt that he had— he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

Ser Gregor didn't use any flags, because Tywin didn't want any of the blame for the raiders to come back on him.

Example #2: Arianne and Arys come up with a plan to slip Myrcella out of the castle, by using stand-ins. Not just by using Myrcella's handmaiden, but for Arys too - using his armor:

Quote

 

“Did you meet with any problems?”

"Only Trystane. He wanted to sit beside Myrcella’s bedside and play cyvasse with her.”

“He had redspots when he was four, I told you. You can only get it once. You should have put out that Myrcella was suffering from greyscale, that would have kept him well away.”

"The boy perhaps, but not your father’s maester.”

“Caleotte,” she said. “Did he try to see her?”

“Not once I described the red spots on her face. He said that nothing could be done until the disease had run its course, and gave me a pot  of salve to soothe her itching.”

No one under ten ever died of redspots, but it could be mortal in adults, and Maester Caleotte had never suffered it as a child. Arianne learned that when she suffered her own spots, at eight. “Good,” she said. “And the handmaid? Is she convincing?”

“From a distance. The Imp picked her for this purpose, over many girls of nobler birth. Myrcella helped her curl her hair, and painted the dots on her face herself. They are distant kin. Lannisport teems with Lannys, Lannetts, Lantells, and lesser Lannisters, and half of them have that yellow hair. Dressed in Myrcella’s bedrobe with the maester’s salve smeared across her face . . . she might even have fooled me, in a dim light. It was a deal harder to find a man to take my place. Dake is closest to my height, but he’s too fat, so I put Rolder in my armor and told him to keep his visor down. The man is three inches shorter than I am, but perhaps no one will notice if I’m not there to stand beside him. He’ll keep to Myrcella’s chambers in any case.”

“All we need is a few days. By that time the princess will be beyond my father’s reach.”

“Where?” He drew her close and nuzzled at her neck. “It’s time you told me the rest of the plan, don’t you think?”

She laughed, pushing him away. “No, it’s time we rode.”

 

 

My theory is that when Ser Gregor continued the search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree long after Rhaegar had given up, it was under Tywin's orders and not Aerys. Tywin had a duplicate made of Rhaegar's armor and had Ser Gregor wear it while raiding. It's my belief that Tywin was against Rhaegar from the time he resigned Hand. The common folk would see Rhaegar's armor and banners while Ser Gregor and his men raided, raped, and pillaged, and support for Rhaegar's cause would crumble. So when Ser Gregor came upon Lyanna, everyone thought it was Rhaegar. It was the talk of the common folk throughout the Riverlands.
 

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Also I have seen the idea that Aerys and Targs in general were sacrificing children to hatch dragons, can anyone send me a link to explain how that entire situation works? It just strikes me as odd that Rhaegar would have participated in that. 

The foundation of this theory is the reason Ned gives Robert for rising up in Rebellion:

Quote

  “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

Then there are the multiple "miscarriages". In the seventeen years following Rhaegar's birth, Rhaella went through multiple pregnancies, stillbirths and miscarriages: miscarriage in 263 AC, miscarriage in 264 AC, Princess Shaena Targaryen, born in 267 AC, stillborn, Prince Daeron Targaryen, born in 269 AC, lived only half a year, stillbirth in 270 AC, gender and name of child unknown, miscarriage in 271 AC, Prince Aegon Targaryen, born in 272 AC, born two months premature, died in 273 AC, Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, born in 274 AC, died later that same year.

Was this just bad luck? Or was there something else going on here?

Then we have this description of Maegor's Holdfast - the castle inside the Red Keep:

Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed.
—thoughts of Catelyn Stark

What are the secrets of the fortress that only dragonlords know about? Varys seems to know some of it, and it's hinted that his confessed motivation for killing Kevan and Pycelle was for saving "the children".

I have been studying the titled chapters for going on three years. I believe the chapters with titles tell two stories. 1) The normal one, and 2) Within the parallels, inversions, and metaphors there's a second one that is about the past. I'm currently deep into Cat of the Canals AFFC chapter 34. So far I've written seven short analysis with more to come, but I think I've written them in such a way that it's easier to follow my train of thought more so than any of the initial chapters that I wrote earlier. Here are some links: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, - the rest can be found following.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Aegon had purple eyes, hard to find another boy with those.  There were doubts about the boy Gregor killed being Aegon (Kevin if I remember right) and that was a corpse with a smashed head seen once.  Fooling everyone with a live boy for a year would be impossible. 

Harder, but not impossible. There are other people in Westeros with purple eyes other than the Targaryens. Just as Tyrion chose Rosamund to be Myrcella's handmaiden, from a distance they looked alike, especially when her hair was curled. And if no one really got that close to the babe, they wouldn't have noticed. For a large majority of the time when she returned to Kings Landing, Elia was confined to Maegor's Holdfast.

[Janneyc1]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed.
—thoughts of Catelyn Stark

I am assuming that the huge dragon mosaic in the very bottom of Maegors plays a factor in this theory as well? 

Going off of this as well, can we use the size of the dragon that Summer sees to estimate it's age and therefore who was sacrificed to hatch it? I have always been curious as to whether there's a dragon roaming around in the north that no one knows about. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have been studying the titled chapters for going on three years. I believe the chapters with titles tell two stories. 1) The normal one, and 2) Within the parallels, inversions, and metaphors there's a second one that is about the past. I'm currently deep into Cat of the Canals AFFC chapter 34. So far I've written seven short analysis with more to come, but I think I've written them in such a way that it's easier to follow my train of thought more so than any of the initial chapters that I wrote earlier. Here are some links: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, - the rest can be found following.

 

This is really in depth... I never even considered that GRRM would write two stories simultaneously within one story. If that is actually what he was going for, then props to him. That has to be insanely difficult. 

 

What clued you into a second story? I am willing to bet that there aren't many that picked up on it. 

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I am assuming that the huge dragon mosaic in the very bottom of Maegors plays a factor in this theory as well? 

Going off of this as well, can we use the size of the dragon that Summer sees to estimate it's age and therefore who was sacrificed to hatch it? I have always been curious as to whether there's a dragon roaming around in the north that no one knows about. 

 

 

 

This is really in depth... I never even considered that GRRM would write two stories simultaneously within one story. If that is actually what he was going for, then props to him. That has to be insanely difficult. 

 

What clued you into a second story? I am willing to bet that there aren't many that picked up on it. 

I am not the first to suspect that the dragon mosaic in the bottom of Maegor's Holdfast has a specific purpose. I am also not the first to suspect that sacrifices and attempts at hatching dragons occurred down there. What is weird is that Aegon V tried to hatch dragons at Summerhal and not at Maegor's Holdfast. Maybe he knew that what he was about to attempt was evil or prohibited, and wanted to be away from court so no one would talk?

The idea to search for meaning behind the titled chapters came from a group discussion when I was a member of Last Hearth. We began a reread and did chapter analysis, but nothing seemed to stand out. I left Last Hearth and started the House of Black and White forum with some other LH friends, and attacked the chapters on my own. I had the proverbial lightbulb moment once I reached The Iron Captain AFFC chapter 18 and realized that "iron" was used repeatedly. Iron Captain, Ironborn, Iron Throne. I wondered if they were metaphors. Then I began to notice the parallels between the Greyjoys and Targaryens, and took note that the Ironborn are on an group of islands known as the Iron Islands on the WEST side of Westeros, while the Targaryens are from the island Dragonstone on the EAST side of Westeros, and the mirrored/parallel/inversion theory was born.

Over the last two years I've seen my ideas drip, drip, drip into other discussions, even seen the terms "parallels and inversions" used more frequently, but I don't know very many people that believe that the titled chapters have two stories...maybe less than a dozen. I feel like most people just think my ideas are crazy or they don't understand what I'm saying or what I'm seeing, but I don't really care. With as much practice as I've had, it just comes second nature to me now. I think the extra story is fun to puzzle out, and I am surprised more people haven't picked up on it. Two extra books are already available for people to read and discuss!

[asongofheresy]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I went over this when I read it the first time. Somehow Renly always tries to communicate with objects, here the Peach, there the rose locklet with an image of Margaery supposed to look like Lyanna. As if he knows something. I don't know if he uses more objects in communication. 

That's why I was curious about Peach too! Though Renly himself seem to gather information from other sources and looks like he tries to confirm if they are true or not? Like with Margaery's miniature he was told she looks like Lyanna so he asks Ned if it is true - I believe beside eye color Lyanna and Margaery could be said to look alike? But he is shot down by Ned and Stannis although they were older and had more knowledgeable about Rebellion they didn't understand what he wants to ask them because of his way of communication? That's how I see it. Peach also has a whore named Tansy ;) 

@Feather Crystal so Lanna and Peach could be another clue about Lyanna and brothels - btw since brothel's like Chataya's and Mole Town has red light hanged at their door and Daenerys remembers a House with Red Door does that mean R+L=D with Lyanna hiding in a brothel with her child? 

You made me search whores of Asoiaf btw that's how I learned about Lanna and Peach. 

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

That's why I was curious about Peach too! Though Renly himself seem to gather information from other sources and looks like he tries to confirm if they are true or not? Like with Margaery's miniature he was told she looks like Lyanna so he asks Ned if it is true - I believe beside eye color Lyanna and Margaery could be said to look alike? But he is shot down by Ned and Stannis although they were older and had more knowledgeable about Rebellion they didn't understand what he wants to ask them because of his way of communication? That's how I see it. Peach also has a whore named Tansy

@Feather Crystal so Lanna and Peach could be another clue about Lyanna and brothels - btw since brothel's like Chataya's and Mole Town has red light hanged at their door and Daenerys remembers a House with Red Door does that mean R+L=D with Lyanna hiding in a brothel with her child? 

You made me search whores of Asoiaf btw that's how I learned about Lanna and Peach. 

Well, my thoughts are that no one, not Lyanna nor Daenerys, ever hid in or was found in a literal brothel, because I believe “brothel” is a metaphor. All highborn maids are treated like prostitutes, so naturally their homes are brothels. Daenerys may have fond memories of her “brothel” and her “pimp”, Willem Darry, but make no mistake, he would have “sold” her when she came of age. Maybe the red door indicates that Darry received frequent offers? None of which had been good enough to accept. He was holding out for a higher price.