Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[Melifeather]

I was hoping to see Black Crow return by now, but he hasn't responded to my messages yet. We are very close to ending Heresy 215. Hopefully we can stretch it out a bit and have BC back by Heresy 216.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So Rhaegar has two sons called Aegon ? 

I don't think she was ever pregnant with Rhaegar's child.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think she was ever pregnant with Rhaegar's child.

ok, perhaps we are talking about two different things.  Who do you not think was pregnant with Rhaegar's child?

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

ok, perhaps we are talking about two different things.  Who do you not think was pregnant with Rhaegar's child?

Elia. 

[Lady Rhodes]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Elia. 

...I feel like during my few days out I missed a lot of things.  When did the theory come out that Elia was not pregnant? Not that I am disregarding out of hand haha I just want to be caught up to speed.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

...I feel like during my few days out I missed a lot of things.  When did the theory come out that Elia was not pregnant? Not that I am disregarding out of hand haha I just want to be caught up to speed.

I was being funny! 

The following is what I believe to be true:

Rhaegar only fathered Rhaenys and Aegon.

Ashara is Jon's mother with Ned as Jon's true father, or maybe Brandon.

Lyanna was never pregnant. Her bed of blood was like Robert's - an abdominal wound suffered from a "boar". I haven't theorized yet the identity of the boar, but other people in the books have nicknames associated with animals, like Gerold "the bull" Hightower, Vargo "the goat" Hoat, Lyanna "half-a-horse" Stark, Arya "horseface" Stark - also "wolf maid" for both Lyanna and Arya. You get the idea.

Aerys and Rhaella are Daenerys parents.

[Lady Rhodes]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was being funny! 

The following is what I believe to be true:

Rhaegar only fathered Rhaenys and Aegon.

Ashara is Jon's mother with Ned as Jon's true father, or maybe Brandon.

Lyanna was never pregnant. Her bed of blood was like Robert's - an abdominal wound suffered from a "boar". I haven't theorized yet the identity of the boar, but other people in the books have nicknames associated with animals, like Gerold "the bull" Hightower, Vargo "the goat" Hoat, Lyanna "half-a-horse" Stark, Arya "horseface" Stark - also "wolf maid" for both Lyanna and Arya. You get the idea.

Aerys and Rhaella are Daenerys parents.

Oh! Sometimes it is hard to tell in these forums if someone has an idea that I just had not thought of before!! haha  

Okay, thank you for this list! I know you didn't agree with the R+L=J, but this helps me understand what your opinions are, so I can understand your theories better! Wonderful! 

I have warring thoughts, but I am becoming more and more of the belief that there was an inner circle (separate from the Kingsguard inner circle that you and I have discussed before) that became a "fellowship" so to speak, trying to save the world from the Others.  Actually, right there was the first time I attributed the word "fellowship" to this group, and it seems all the more likely because of that word choice.  The Fellowship could be a parallel or inversion to Tolkein's Lord of the Rings.  @Feather Crystal you are excellent with finding parallels and inversions, can we work on this?

My rough thoughts on the matter, and @Frey family reunion and I share similar views so they may be able to assist, is that beyond the issues with Aerys' governance, Rhaegar was concerned with the Prince that was Promised prophecy and presumably, the return of the Others, hence his correspondence with Maester Aemon.  I think that Rhaegar, Elia, Arthur Dayne, Ashara, along with some others though I am not sure, persuaded Lyanna to join their group. 

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have warring thoughts, but I am becoming more and more of the belief that there was an inner circle (separate from the Kingsguard inner circle that you and I have discussed before) that became a "fellowship" so to speak, trying to save the world from the Others.  Actually, right there was the first time I attributed the word "fellowship" to this group, and it seems all the more likely because of that word choice.  The Fellowship could be a parallel or inversion to Tolkein's Lord of the Rings.  @Feather Crystal you are excellent with finding parallels and inversions, can we work on this?

I have worked a lot with parallels, but to be quite honest I've seen more parallels to Marvel and DC Comics in ASOIAF than I have to Tolkein. I'd have to reread the Tolkein trilogy, which I haven't read since I was a kid - we're talking forty years ago or more - so I would be reading with adult eyes and understanding. But you might have a hard time drawing me away from the study of the titled chapters. I haven't quite finished Cat of the Canals and I've got someone trying to draw me into a discussion of The Princess in the Tower!

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

My rough thoughts on the matter, and @Frey family reunion and I share similar views so they may be able to assist, is that beyond the issues with Aerys' governance, Rhaegar was concerned with the Prince that was Promised prophecy and presumably, the return of the Others, hence his correspondence with Maester Aemon.  I think that Rhaegar, Elia, Arthur Dayne, Ashara, along with some others though I am not sure, persuaded Lyanna to join their group. 

I agree that there was an undercover group that was referred to as the Kingswood Brotherhood. The official story is that they were bandits, but I think they were more like Beric's Brotherhood Without Banners, which was a loyalist group sent out by Ned Stark. 

I believe all the Targaryens were concerned about was on how to hatch dragon eggs, which is what the Prince that was Promised prophesy is about.

[The Hidden Dragon]

@Feather Crystal you said you believe that Ashara is Jon's mother with Ned being the father (or perhaps Brandon).  I'm curious then, how do you reconcile Ned being Jon's father with Ned's own thoughts excluding Jon from a list of his children (from AGOT Eddard XII)?  

Quote

 

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine." 

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

There Ned lists his children, in the order of their birth no less, but does not include Jon.  Just a reminder, this in Ned's internal thoughts.  He's not speaking, so there is no need to hide or lie.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I know some other folks on here disagree (for valid reasons, just ones I don't share) but I think Selmy is one of the more honorable and memorically accurate POV characters.

You have to choose the topic, though.

Selmy is a good authority on Rhaegar/Elia because he is a direct eyewitness who has no apparent motive to lie.  He spent years at court at a time both of them were present.  Surely he would be in a position to know.

Viserys, on the other hand, is a terrible authority on Rhaegar/Lyanna because, as far as we know, he never saw them together as a couple of any sort -- not a single time.  In this, he is like all other characters (that we've heard from so far in canon).

So when it comes to Selmy thinking Rhaegar loved Lyanna, it's much the same problem as with Viserys.  He has no authority at all -- he just wasn't there at any time the two of them were a couple, didn't see how they interacted, and doesn't really know how Rhaegar felt.  He is just leaping to this conclusion about Rhaegar being in love with Lyanna based on Rhaegar naming her queen of love and beauty, not any sort of objective knowledge.

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

@Feather Crystal you said you believe that Ashara is Jon's mother with Ned being the father (or perhaps Brandon).  I'm curious then, how do you reconcile Ned being Jon's father with Ned's own thoughts excluding Jon from a list of his children (from AGOT Eddard XII)?  

There Ned lists his children, in the order of their birth no less, but does not include Jon.  Just a reminder, this in Ned's internal thoughts.  He's not speaking, so there is no need to hide or lie.

I am aware of the passage. If Jon is Brandon's son, then this is easily explained, and Jon would still be Ned's blood. But if Jon is Ned's son, then he's not counting him as a legitimate son. He is his bastard child with no claim to Winterfell.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

So when it comes to Selmy thinking Rhaegar loved Lyanna, it's much the same problem as with Viserys.  He has no authority at all -- he just wasn't there at any time the two of them were a couple, didn't see how they interacted, and doesn't really know how Rhaegar felt.  He is just leaping to this conclusion about Rhaegar being in love with Lyanna based on Rhaegar naming her queen of love and beauty, not any sort of objective knowledge.

I agree with this.  Selmy is putting himself in Rhaegar's place and assuming that Rhaegar's motivation to crown Lyanna mirrored the reason that he wanted to crown Ashara.  Ultimately, much like Sansa, Selmy is a bit of a starry eyed romantic.

The one character that might have the best take on Rhaegar (though even this is questionable) is Jon Connington, and interestingly enough, while he think about Elia not being good enough for Rhaegar, he never thinks about Lyanna at all.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Jon Connington, and interestingly enough, while he think about Elia not being good enough for Rhaegar, he never thinks about Lyanna at all

Yes, that's a very good and interesting point. 

In general I'm wary of drawing conclusions based on what characters do not think... but Connington, on that subject, is a special case.

Actually... when I read ADWD for the second time last year, I was more careful going over the Connington chapters than the first time.  And I discovered that GRRM is remarkably careful and consistent, even painstaking, about certain things.  Not just the Rhaegar/Connington "friendliness," but even subtler things than that pertaining to Young Griff.

Oh, and before I forget, FFR, I read and agreed with your commentary in another place re Dunk and jousting.

Jaime's remark that jousting is three-quarters horsemanship was almost certainly made in context of two trained, adult knights equal in all other ways except horsemanship.  To me it makes little sense to apply it to Lyanna (who would have been about in the eighth grade, with no training, and zero experience jousting against other people, while wearing armor, in a tourney).

[St Daga]

On 12/24/2018 at 3:21 PM, SirArthur said:

On 12/24/2018 at 12:23 AM, St Daga said:

And truly, I think GRRM has spent a lot less time on his own timeline than we have. I think he has left it vague on purpose, which gives him some leeway while telling his story. We might never get it set town with complete accuracy.

I don't know. The problem is, GRRM has all the information. And Dany is ... outright not able to think one step ahead, yet she is our trusted source with some calculations. 

 

On 12/24/2018 at 3:21 PM, SirArthur said:

This outright shows us, that something is wrong with our perception. "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved", yet after the source (Dany) thinks this 2 times, the same source is outright surprised that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. I don't know if Dany is stupid and didn't once think about the woman Rhaegar loved or what, if at all, is going on in her head. In her central story, that defines who she thinks she is. From Dany I forward. Who does she thinks Rhaegar loved ? 

And I assume we have the same filter problem with our timeline. We have two stories. The story of Lyanna and the war and the then later the story how Aerys took heirs hostage to force the Lords to come to him. This version does not fit the Brandon-Lyanna version, where Brandon should be the criminal wanting to kill Rhaegar. There was no need to force-summon Arryn, Royce, Mallister and Stark over Brandon's actions (by taking their heirs, I'm not sure if Royce and Mallister were heirs). And to an extend the same is true for the Jaime-Tywin connection. Tyrion is the heir unless Jaime is somehow released from his duty.

And to come back to the original question if GRRM had thought about it, for the cover story to work, the real story has to be thought through. Unless we are all wrong of course and there is no cover story and Dany is just indoctrinated.

Dany is a fallible historian. She only knows what she has been told, mostly by Viserys, and perhaps what she has heard over the years of her exile, but that knowledge would be based on rumor. Her memory or knowledge on Rhaegar or the rebellion is not based on her own vision. This could apply to some of what Viserys knows as well. I think they both are poor resources on the timeline for certain, but on details of their own family, as well.

My comments on the GRRM and the timeline come down to him wanting to be vague to keep the details unclear. If he wanted us to have a step by step walk through the rebellion and what lead up to it, he would give it to us. Instead, he gives us POV's characters that can be influenced or misremember details, or people looking back on details from years ago. Do people really remember details and years well several years later. I think GRRM has a plan, but as to us specifically tying events down to days or weeks within a month are not part of the plan that GRRM probably laid out initially, or thought a great deal on. 

I just think we are thinking much harder on a specific order of details than he did. And I don't see how that has anything to do with Dany as a very unreliable narrator when it comes to Rhaegar and his life and death, or even her and Viserys' flight from Westeros.

[St Daga]

On 12/26/2018 at 12:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

On 12/26/2018 at 11:50 AM, Feather Crystal said:

they don't practice knighthood

Well, that is partially true.  Jorah is a knight, the Manderly's have knights, and Bran dreams of being a knight.  It is not as commonplace, but that does not mean that it isn't practiced.

 

On 12/26/2018 at 1:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

On 12/26/2018 at 1:06 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Manderly's you mean?  I am pretty sure the Mormonts observe the old gods.

Jorah Mormont is a knight and described as an Andal - thus a follower of the Seven. Seems the Mormont's are transplants - and awarded their home by Rodrik Stark. It's just said that Rodrik won the land by wrestling an old driftwood king. If Rodrik won it, why give it to the Mormont's unless they did Rodrik some favor?

The Manderlys are transplants too, and used to live in the Reach near the Mander river, and were also followers of the Faith.

Both Mormont's and Manderlys are not First Men families. They are Andal families that were awarded homes in the north, and retained their Faiths.

 

On 12/26/2018 at 3:14 PM, Feather Crystal said:

On 12/26/2018 at 3:00 PM, Tucu said:

Maege is among those that pray to the Old Gods:

Well, it remains to be revealed as to why Jorah was a knight, while his sister stuck with the old gods.

I don't see anything in the text that tells us the Mormont's follow the Faith of the Seven  at all, or are of Andal origin. I think Jorah is an outlier in his family, he became a knight when he was older, probably late 20's or early 30's, around 10 years before the start of our story. His fighting at Pyke earned him a knighthood but we don't know why he accepted it. I would speculate his acceptance had something to do with impressing Lynesse Hightower. Do we know if Jorah was actually knighted right after the Battle at Pyke or if he was later knighted in a ceremony at the Tourney that was held in honor of the victory against the Greyjoy's. We have the knights of the Blackwater being knighted in a ceremony that was probably at least a couple days after the actual battle, with some pomp and drama playing out in the throne room of the Red Keep (after these men who were to become knights had time to spend a night in the Sept of Baelor and walk barefoot across the city, according to Sansa).

I have always thought that the "Jorah the Andal" was confusion on the Dothraki's perspective that Westeros is full of people of Andal descent, and doesn't directly tie to his heritage. We never have example of a Mormont praying to the seven, and one example of Maege Mormont, Jorah's aunt and Jeor's sister, praying to the old gods. 

We have some outlier's in the north, with Ser Rodrik Cassel being a knight but in no way hinting that he follows the Seven. There is also the textual information that Rickard Stark was wearing golden spurs at the time of his death by wildfire in Kings Landing. This information comes to us from Jaime's story to Catelyn, but in our world, golden spurs used to indicate the achievement of knighthood, but there is no reason to think that Rickard followed the Faith of the Seven. Now, whether golden spurs equal knighthood in GRRM's story, I suppose we can't say!

And while the Mormont's were awarded Bear Island by the Stark's, I don't see any reason to think this means that they were a family that didn't come from the north originally. But you do have me considering it possible that the Mormont's and their bear imagery and hit's of shapeshifting might have possibly come from north of the wall. After all, we have a this happening in Dance, when through marriage, a wildling warlord is given the holdings of the Karstark's at Last Hearth. 

[St Daga]

On 12/26/2018 at 1:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Back to this idea that "southron ambitions" meant adopting southern customs - it occurred to me that since Catelyn was only 12 when she was promised to Brandon, that maybe the reason why Ned was sent to Jon Arryn was to train on how to be a knight? It also may explain Ned's willingness to build a sept at Winterfell. He was accustomed to both faiths, even though it appeared that he preferred the old gods himself. Lady Barbary blamed Maester Walys for the southron ambitions, so perhaps it was with his encouragement that Rickard sent Ned to train with Jon Arryn to become a knight, while Brandon may have been just too old to become a squire? I wonder how old Brandon was when he was promised to Catelyn? I believe the wiki states his age upon death as being 20, but didn't Catelyn say he was 20 when they were betrothed? Can anybody clear up Brandon's age? He must have been older than 20 when he died, because Ned was around 19 years old at the end of the Rebellion, so around 18 when he married Catelyn. Ned should have been around 12 when he was sent to Jon Arryn to be a squire...which is about the right age. I'm thinking the betrothal between Brandon and Catelyn, and sending Ned to Jon Arryn, happened at the same time. And since the timing was six years prior to the Rebellion, it seems like Rickard's actions were being dictated by adopting southern customs rather than in preparation for the Rebellion.

Ned was eight when he went to the Eyrie to be fostered with Jon Arryn.

On 12/26/2018 at 1:30 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I've edited my above post so much that I'm just going to start a new one in case anyone missed what I was saying about why Ned was with Jon Arryn.

If Catelyn was 12 years old when she was betrothed to Brandon Stark, the timing places it six years prior to the Rebellion, therefore not likely to have been connected to the Rebellion.

Ned was probably sent to Jon Arryn around the same time as the betrothal when he too was about 12 years old to be a squire and become a knight under the direction of Jon Arryn. He remained with Jon Arryn, because he wasn't yet knighted. Squires typically remain with their knights until they become knights themselves. A squire also does not take it upon himself to leave his knight without leave.

Knighthood is not a custom that followers of the old gods would do, and therefore Rickard's actions were not normal and would have been seen as "southron ambitions".

Ned tells us, and Catelyn, that he was eight when he was fostered. She doesn't seem to dispute this, nor does Luwin, so the detail must be correct.

Quote

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven."

 

"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it." AGOT-Catelyn II

So, Ned was sent to the Eyrie long before Brandon would have been betrothed to Catelyn. As a matter of fact, if Ned was sent to help Rickard form southron allies, then this could indicate that Rickard had been looking south longer than you think he did. Of course, I have some thought that Ned was actually a hostage in the Eyrie, but even if he is not, it indicates a longer timeline for Rickard's possible ambition or unease under the reign of Aerys.

We have no idea why Ned stayed longer in the Eyrie than 16, but I don't think knighthood is the reason. We also have no idea if Ned wasn't knighted at some time during the rebellion, but he certainly battled. We are not even told if Robert Baratheon was ever officially knighted, but it's hard to imagine he wasn't. Like much else in the text, this is left vague. Possibly because by that time Ned held another title, which is Lord of Winterfell, he is never referred to as a knight, or possibly he never accepted a knighthood. I doubt his lack of earning a knighthood was the reason he was still hanging out in the Eyrie. This could work for Robert too. We are never told that Mace Tyrell is a knight, but one would assume he is. Or Randyll Tarly, for that matter.

And I don't know if squires need to serve under knights. We have an example of Podrick Payne, who serves as a squire to Tyrion and Brienne, and neither of them are knights. 

On 12/26/2018 at 3:14 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If Brandon was 20 when he died, he was probably 14 when betrothed to Catelyn, which doesn't sound too old to be a squire, but perhaps Rickard thought it more prudent to keep him home and groom him to be the next lord of Winterfell? 

We are told in the text that Brandon was fostered at Barrowton.

Quote

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

 

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me." ADWD-The Turncloak

It's hard to say what age Brandon might have been sent to Barrowton to foster or how long he remained there, but it seems that he and Barbrey already were an item before she found out he was to wed Catelyn. It doesn't mean the betrothal wasn't in place before this, but it must not have been public knowledge if that was the case. If it was a long betrothal and public knowledge, Barbrey's father would be aware, and so would she.

 

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As far as I know there are only three lords that are titled Lord Paramount: 

1) Lord Paramount of the Mander or Reach

2) Lord Paramount of the Trident

3) Lord Paramount of the Stormlands

Also, we are given this hint about the Iron Islands, although we never hear of the title Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands, I don't think.

Quote

Most of the text hits for Lord Paramount are tied to the Trident and the Mander, and I was wondering if this was a title tied to a the watershed of a major waterway. But then we get Lord Paramount of the Reach (this is a different title than the Mander, I think) and the Stormlands. But it is only Orys Baratheon that is referred to as Lord Aegon chose a different course. Gathering the remaining lords of the Iron Islands together, he announced that he would allow them to choose their own lord paramount. Unsurprisingly they chose one of their own: Vickon Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, a famous captain descended of the Grey King. Though Pyke was smaller and poorer than Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, the Greyjoys boasted a long and distinguished lineage. In the days of the kingsmoot, only the Greyirons and Goodbrothers had produced more kings, and the Greyirons were gone.of the Stormlands, so I am wondering if this is more of an honorary and individually appointed title than one that is inherited? TWOIAF-The Iron Islands: The Greyjoys of Pyke

Maybe there are more Lord Paramounts that we know about? I also wonder if this is a title or honor that was started as part of Aegon I's rule after the conquest. I don't find the term" Lord Parmount" noted to be used before the conquest. 

 

 

[St Daga]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

16 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I don't think this is exactly true.  Jorah was married. Also, aren't some of the Tyrell or Redwyne knights married? There are certain orders that swear not to marry (Kingsguard, for instance) but I don't think that never marrying is a part of the knight code.

Jorah was a knight before getting married. I don't think we have any examples of men being knighted after marriage, not to say marriage dissolves knighthood.

I don't think knighthood has anything to do with being married or not. One example is Garlan Tyrell, who is a knight, and we have no idea if that occurred before or after his marriage. 

Another is Ser Davos Seaworth. Davos was knighted by Stannis at some point, presumably after Davos's smuggled his onions to Storm's End and Stannis chopped off his fingers. Maybe the knighthood came before the "fingerbones"??? Davos was already married to his wife Marya at that time, at least according to the ages of the children that he has with her. 

 

[Lady Rhodes]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have worked a lot with parallels, but to be quite honest I've seen more parallels to Marvel and DC Comics in ASOIAF than I have to Tolkein. I'd have to reread the Tolkein trilogy, which I haven't read since I was a kid - we're talking forty years ago or more - so I would be reading with adult eyes and understanding. But you might have a hard time drawing me away from the study of the titled chapters. I haven't quite finished Cat of the Canals and I've got someone trying to draw me into a discussion of The Princess in the Tower!

I read Fellowship about ten years ago, but I may pick up them all again to do a refresh with this idea in mind.  I know you have alluded to before your thoughts concerning the Kingswood Brotherhood.  Still, this may be interesting to explore.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The one character that might have the best take on Rhaegar (though even this is questionable) is Jon Connington, and interestingly enough, while he think about Elia not being good enough for Rhaegar, he never thinks about Lyanna at all.

I will admit that this is very interesting.  It makes me wonder if Rhaegar and Jon Con are as close as Jon Con likes to think/remember? I have my doubts of him being in the inner circle.  But, he was named as Hand...so I am going to have to do some more thinking about this.

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Actually... when I read ADWD for the second time last year, I was more careful going over the Connington chapters than the first time.  And I discovered that GRRM is remarkably careful and consistent, even painstaking, about certain things.  Not just the Rhaegar/Connington "friendliness," but even subtler things than that pertaining to Young Griff.

I finished my second read of Dance about a month ago, and I see what you mean here.  It kinda flows with what I said above. 

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

Instead, he gives us POV's characters that can be influenced or misremember details, or people looking back on details from years ago. Do people really remember details and years well several years later. I think GRRM has a plan

I think you are exactly right. The characters are unreliable (as all humans are!) so the question becomes how do parse through the information to find out truth.  I do think Martin has a plan and I think that all will be revealed in time, but I think that through our discussion, we are going to find some things that may be "twist points" so to speak - meaning points that are not supposed to line up because the characters have something wrong.  Other things I think are issues with narrative editing - both the Rebellion and the Siege lasting a year, for instance.

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I would speculate his acceptance had something to do with impressing Lynesse Hightower

I think you have the right of it.

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have always thought that the "Jorah the Andal" was confusion on the Dothraki's perspective that Westeros is full of people of Andal descent, and doesn't directly tie to his heritage

This was my thought as well.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't see anything in the text that tells us the Mormont's follow the Faith of the Seven  at all, or are of Andal origin. I think Jorah is an outlier in his family, he became a knight when he was older, probably late 20's or early 30's, around 10 years before the start of our story. His fighting at Pyke earned him a knighthood but we don't know why he accepted it. I would speculate his acceptance had something to do with impressing Lynesse Hightower. Do we know if Jorah was actually knighted right after the Battle at Pyke or if he was later knighted in a ceremony at the Tourney that was held in honor of the victory against the Greyjoy's. We have the knights of the Blackwater being knighted in a ceremony that was probably at least a couple days after the actual battle, with some pomp and drama playing out in the throne room of the Red Keep (after these men who were to become knights had time to spend a night in the Sept of Baelor and walk barefoot across the city, according to Sansa).

There is a process for becoming a knight. You begin as a squire for a knight. Go through martial training and serve the needs of the knight. There is a religious aspect as well. You can be knighted on the field for valor and you can be knighted after standing vigil in a sept, but a knight's reputation is dependent upon who they squired for and/or who knighted them. So if you skip the training and some lordling just makes you a knight, you are considered weak. 

If the Mormont's are of First Men origin - and I doubt that they are - Jorah could be another individual that was converted, just like some vikings were in England. He could have been someone's squire going into the fighting at Pyke, and then knighted on the field for valor.

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

We have some outlier's in the north, with Ser Rodrik Cassel being a knight but in no way hinting that he follows the Seven. There is also the textual information that Rickard Stark was wearing golden spurs at the time of his death by wildfire in Kings Landing. This information comes to us from Jaime's story to Catelyn, but in our world, golden spurs used to indicate the achievement of knighthood, but there is no reason to think that Rickard followed the Faith of the Seven. Now, whether golden spurs equal knighthood in GRRM's story, I suppose we can't say!

If Rickard was converted, it wouldn't be surprising if men close to him were converted also. I had suggested that knighthood could have looked appealing to individual northmen. Ser Rodrik's position suggests that he was positioned to instill and train the young men of Winterfell in martial arts that lead to knighthood. Rickard could have brought Rodrik to Winterfell just as Ned brought Syrio to Arya for training. Rickard's golden spurs - to me - seem to hint that he did indeed convert.

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Ned tells us, and Catelyn, that he was eight when he was fostered. She doesn't seem to dispute this, nor does Luwin, so the detail must be correct.

Was Ned younger than Catelyn? If so, then Ned's young age supports my theory that sending him to Jon Arryn was less about a conspiracy and more about Rickard's desire that Ned would be trained to become a knight.

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

So, Ned was sent to the Eyrie long before Brandon would have been betrothed to Catelyn. As a matter of fact, if Ned was sent to help Rickard form southron allies, then this could indicate that Rickard had been looking south longer than you think he did. Of course, I have some thought that Ned was actually a hostage in the Eyrie, but even if he is not, it indicates a longer timeline for Rickard's possible ambition or unease under the reign of Aerys.

We have no idea why Ned stayed longer in the Eyrie than 16, but I don't think knighthood is the reason. We also have no idea if Ned wasn't knighted at some time during the rebellion, but he certainly battled. We are not even told if Robert Baratheon was ever officially knighted, but it's hard to imagine he wasn't. Like much else in the text, this is left vague. Possibly because by that time Ned held another title, which is Lord of Winterfell, he is never referred to as a knight, or possibly he never accepted a knighthood. I doubt his lack of earning a knighthood was the reason he was still hanging out in the Eyrie. This could work for Robert too. We are never told that Mace Tyrell is a knight, but one would assume he is. Or Randyll Tarly, for that matter.

And I don't know if squires need to serve under knights. We have an example of Podrick Payne, who serves as a squire to Tyrion and Brienne, and neither of them are knights. 

I see hints that Ned was a squire of Jon Arryn along with Robert Baratheon, and would have stayed with him until knighted. That is the tradition of the position, and a more sensible reason for remaining at the Eyrie than simply staying because Ned liked it there.

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I read Fellowship about ten years ago, but I may pick up them all again to do a refresh with this idea in mind.  I know you have alluded to before your thoughts concerning the Kingswood Brotherhood.  Still, this may be interesting to explore.

Start a thread about the topic and tag me. 

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't think knighthood has anything to do with being married or not. One example is Garlan Tyrell, who is a knight, and we have no idea if that occurred before or after his marriage. 

Another is Ser Davos Seaworth. Davos was knighted by Stannis at some point, presumably after Davos's smuggled his onions to Storm's End and Stannis chopped off his fingers. Maybe the knighthood came before the "fingerbones"??? Davos was already married to his wife Marya at that time, at least according to the ages of the children that he has with her. 

 

Davos is from common folk stock from Flea Bottom and a smuggler. He didn't go through the proper training to be a knight. HIs title is more honorary, earned for his service to Stannis. But surely you can see that this is why people outside of Stannis's circle ridicule him? It's because they know he didn't go through the proper steps of serving as a squire, going through the martial training, etc, so his knighthood isn't real to the outside world. Calling him the Onion Knight isn't an honorary title - they're making fun of him.