Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[Brad Stark]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also want to point out that Rickard died, roasting inside his armor, so he must have become a knight. It’s not something a Northman would typically wear. A Northman might wear chainmail with boiled leather and fur, but a suit of plated armor is an Andal thing associated with knights, and knights are associated with the Faith.

I also pictured metal armor reading this, but it isn't necessary.  You could roast inside leather too. 

Rickard was heading to political discussions and possibly combat in the South.  He may not have dressed typically, nor would the Warden of all northmen nessesarily dress like a typical northman. 

As mentioned before, dress does not make you a knight. 

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga is it okay if I answer you in the new thread? 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Isn't it time for a new thread?

I was delaying, hoping for Black Crow to return.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

No, I am just trying to base idea's on what the text gives us. The text never tells us that in general northman are trained to be knights, although they are trained to be warriors. Knighthood is something that comes with a title. We are given a few examples that differ from that, the Manderly's and Ser Rodrik Cassel, but it's not a general theme in the north. Up thread you claimed that armor was only something that trained "knights" would have and I disagree. Armor is something that trained warrior's have, not just knights.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but you seemed to state that "armored men" from the north must be knights, and to be knights, they must have converted to the Faith of the Seven, and that is what I am questioning. Training to be a knight is no different than training to become a warrior, but the difference is in the wording, the eventual title that the knight carries.

I have not read Dunk and Egg, but I do believe there is some question about whether Dunk was truly ever knighted, or if he just claimed it was so. But I can't debate that fairly because I haven't had much interest in those texts.

The point about Sandor was that you stated that Jorah could not compete in a tourney until he was a knight, which does not seem to be the case, since we have an example at the Hand's Tourney, of Sander Clegane, who we agree is no knight, competing in a tourney. I was simply trying to clarify what is in the text. And per usual, there is vagueness from the author on small details like this.

Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding what you are saying. To me, a knight is a title that a warrior can receive, but it doesn't make him much different than any other warrior. Which I think is one of the points of Sandor Clegane's arc. He is a warrior, and he doesn't care to sugar coat that with a title of Ser or a pretense about being a "knight". A knight is simply a trained warrior with a title! 

You are saying Jon is trained to be a knight, which I see as a formality only, while I see Jon as being trained to be a warrior, a fighter who does not need to take vows in a sept and be called by the title Ser. It might just come down to semantics, and that is not worth disagreeing about.

I do get hung up on details, like words meanings. I just want to work what I know around what the text gives us, and certainly am not picking at anyone person in particular. It's just a clarification process.

You either have terrible comprehension or you’re baiting me. Which is it?

To reiterate the north is mainly people of First Men descent with a Viking culture, where knighthood isn’t typically a practice, but Rickard Stark changed that. Through maester Walys’s Influence, Rickard became a knight, by bringing in men like Rodrik Castle to train. Note I didn’t say Rickard placed Rodrik, just men like him, although he could have. Do I need to continue to insert these superfluous explanations to help you understand?

Sandor insists he’s not a knight, but he is a Kingsguard, which are knights appointed by the king, so he’s a knight whether he wants to or not, but his status makes him qualified to enter tourneys.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Davos was a smallfolk/smuggler with no side; why he helped Stannis? Because he could sell worthless onions for a fortune.

GRRM explains this:

 

Did you misunderstand me as well? Because I was pointing out that Davos was Stannis’s man and wouldn’t help the enemy.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I know it doesn't make much sense, it was just a question? But we do have some precedent for Stannis arranging for Davos to use his smuggling knowledge and we also have precedent in the text for Davos to rescue a child who would no doubt have been killed if Davos had not intervened. It's probably nothing, but it just occurred to me that it's interesting that Dany and Viserys were snatched out of Dragonstone just in the nick of time, right before Stannis arrived with his new fleet, and Edric Storm was snatched away from Dragonstone just in the nick of time, right before Mel had convinced Stannis to let her have Edric for her flames. It's probably nothing at all!

I would look for a man like Davos, but Dany reported that Willem Darry stole into the nursery to make the escape. I’m sure he had help, and maybe he hired his own smuggler?

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I see one is open now, The Return of the Crow! 

Thank the old gods and new!

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I also pictured metal armor reading this, but it isn't necessary.  You could roast inside leather too. 

Rickard was heading to political discussions and possibly combat in the South.  He may not have dressed typically, nor would the Warden of all northmen nessesarily dress like a typical northman. 

As mentioned before, dress does not make you a knight. 

I agree dress doesn’t make you a knight, but I am theorizing that the meaning behind southron ambitions means that Rickard became a knight and adopted the Andal culture at Winterfell.

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Did you misunderstand me as well? Because I was pointing out that Davos was Stannis’s man and wouldn’t help the enemy.

I would look for a man like Davos, but Dany reported that Willem Darry stole into the nursery to make the escape. I’m sure he had help, and maybe he hired his own smuggler?

yes , I misread the question. There are multiple people that could have helped; they had lost the fleet but the captains and sailors were still alive.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You either have terrible comprehension or you’re baiting me. Which is it?

It's neither. But I am confused by how upset you are when text is used to question your theories.

19 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also want to point out that Rickard died, roasting inside his armor, so he must have become a knight. It’s not something a Northman would typically wear. A Northman might wear chainmail with boiled leather and fur, but a suit of plated armor is an Andal thing associated with knights, and knights are associated with the Faith.

Your state here that a northman would not wear a suit of plated armor, since plated armor is "an Andal thing associated with knights and knights are associated with the Faith". Therefore Rickard Stark, who was wearing armor at the time of his death, "must have become a knight" and in your theory, if he was a knight he must have converted to the Faith. I have no difficulty with your theory, nor am I trying to change your mind, I was only trying to point out that we do have northmen, not all wealthy or lords, who are dressed in plate armor, who have likely not converted to the Faith or have become knights. I am not picking on you, I am just trying to go by what the text gives us.

I may also be confused when your theory statements read as if they are canon, such as this:

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

To reiterate the north is mainly people of First Men descent with a Viking culture, where knighthood isn’t typically a practice, but Rickard Stark changed that. Through maester Walys’s Influence, Rickard became a knight, by bringing in men like Rodrik Castle to train. Note I didn’t say Rickard placed Rodrik, just men like him, although he could have.

I guess that does make it my comprehension problem when the tone reads as if this is an absolute and not a theory. We actually don't know that Rickard Stark changed the way the northmen are trained, or that he introduced knighthood into practice in the north, but I can accept it's your theory, and am moving on.

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sandor insists he’s not a knight, but he is a Kingsguard, which are knights appointed by the king, so he’s a knight whether he wants to or not, but his status makes him qualified to enter tourneys.

At the time of the Hand's Tourney, Robert was still alive, Joffrey was not king, so Barristan had not been fired, and Sandor was no kingsguard at the time. I was merely trying to show how the text tells us that a man such as Sandor Clegane, who is not a knight (no matter how it's defined) can compete in a tournament. 

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do I need to continue to insert these superfluous explanations to help you understand?

Please don't! As far as I am concerned the discussion on knights and armor is over. There is no point, we are not going to agree, and according to your earlier comments, consensus isn't a requirement of this board or these discussions. Let's just end it before it becomes less civil than it already has.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

 

3 hours ago, St Daga said: