Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, my thoughts are that no one, not Lyanna nor Daenerys, ever hid in or was found in a literal brothel, because I believe “brothel” is a metaphor. All highborn maids are treated like prostitutes, so naturally their homes are brothels. Daenerys may have fond memories of her “brothel” and her “pimp”, Willem Darry, but make no mistake, he would have “sold” her when she came of age. Maybe the red door indicates that Darry received frequent offers? None of which had been good enough to accept. He was holding out for a higher price.

What would be higher than a Dornish Prince at the time? Was Darry hoping to form an alliance with the Reach? 

[Lady Rhodes]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

"the children".

I have always taken "the children" to mean the overall whole of Westeros - the people - common and high born, who are hurt when people play their game of thrones.

I am intrigued with your thoughts about Aerys and Rhaella's children being sacrifices.  I believe we discussed the ToJ sacrificial pyre in a previous heresy together. There are only a couple of things that I have trouble reconciling.
1) We have the PoV of two Kingsguard - Jaime and Barristan.  Jaime went all out telling Brienne about the atrocity that Aerys was going to commit in Kings Landing.  I feel that he would have told her if he had witnessed anything else.  To be fair, though, he was not on the Kingsguard very long, so he may not have witnessed much of this.  But Barristan we have a very defined PoV of.  We have a sense of his values, his sense of right and wrong.  He was very vocal against the killing of the cupbearers in Meereen, and he also mentions that if he had seen Robert smile when looking at the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon that he doesn't think he could have been restrained from killing him.  This makes me skeptical that he would stand by while children were sacrificed.
2)The thoughts on Rhaegar are conflicting - only Robert really hates him (though I must say, your point about Tywin working silently to undermine the Targaryens is thought provoking) Barristan seems to regard him as someone who is caring and melancholy, intelligent, noble, a skilled fighter but preferring music. Jorah describes him as valiant and honorable. Ned reflects that he did not think Rhaegar would be the type to frequent brothels.  In addition, Ned holds Arthur Dayne in high regard, as well as the other Kingsguard knights that were at the ToJ.  It doesn't appear to me that Rhaegar was complicit, or at least, intentionally complicit in something heinous as child sacrifice.  Furthermore, I can't see Ned holding them in high esteem if they were all involved in something so dark and twisted. 

To be sure, I do think something was going on there.  But I don't think Rhaegar is a monster either.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

What would be higher than a Dornish Prince at the time? Was Darry hoping to form an alliance with the Reach? 

There was an offer from Dorne that was accepted, so maybe the red door symbolizes that marriage contract?

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

There was an offer from Dorne that was accepted, so maybe the red door symbolizes that marriage contract?

Oh interesting approach, than why do you think when Quentyn present her with the contract she feels weird about it? 

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have always taken "the children" to mean the overall whole of Westeros - the people - common and high born, who are hurt when people play their game of thrones.

I am intrigued with your thoughts about Aerys and Rhaella's children being sacrifices.  I believe we discussed the ToJ sacrificial pyre in a previous heresy together. There are only a couple of things that I have trouble reconciling.
1) We have the PoV of two Kingsguard - Jaime and Barristan.  Jaime went all out telling Brienne about the atrocity that Aerys was going to commit in Kings Landing.  I feel that he would have told her if he had witnessed anything else.  To be fair, though, he was not on the Kingsguard very long, so he may not have witnessed much of this.  But Barristan we have a very defined PoV of.  We have a sense of his values, his sense of right and wrong.  He was very vocal against the killing of the cupbearers in Meereen, and he also mentions that if he had seen Robert smile when looking at the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon that he doesn't think he could have been restrained from killing him.  This makes me skeptical that he would stand by while children were sacrificed.
2)The thoughts on Rhaegar are conflicting - only Robert really hates him (though I must say, your point about Tywin working silently to undermine the Targaryens is thought provoking) Barristan seems to regard him as someone who is caring and melancholy, intelligent, noble, a skilled fighter but preferring music. Jorah describes him as valiant and honorable. Ned reflects that he did not think Rhaegar would be the type to frequent brothels.  In addition, Ned holds Arthur Dayne in high regard, as well as the other Kingsguard knights that were at the ToJ.  It doesn't appear to me that Rhaegar was complicit, or at least, intentionally complicit in something heinous as child sacrifice.  Furthermore, I can't see Ned holding them in high esteem if they were all involved in something so dark and twisted. 

To be sure, I do think something was going on there.  But I don't think Rhaegar is a monster either.

Rhaegar's words to Jaime that he meant to change things indicates that perhaps one of the changes was putting a stop to the dragon hatching attempts.

Barristan, on the other hand, seems to be a man racked with guilt. He was a faithful servant of the three kings he served, so when Joffrey and Cersei pushed him out, he felt betrayed. He's probably committed some pretty terrible things in the name of the king, so now that he's serving a queen that doesn't make him do bad things, he's able to show the outrage and moral disgust at some of the things he himself was party to in the past.

Ned holds honor in higher regard than circumstances. Recall how much he despised Jaime Lannister for killing the king he was sworn to protect. Who really was the better man here? I think Jaime.

Ned did hold Arthur Dayne in high regard, because he viewed him as honorable, so keeping in mind that Ned thought Jaime dishonorable, was Arthur really a good guy? Ned had to kill him, because he wouldn't stand down. If you've read my theory about Maegor's Holdfast being the real location of the tower of joy, then you have to consider the honorability of the three Kingsguard who were standing guard at Maegor's Holdfast holding Elia and her children hostage in the royal apartments. Gregor Clegane and Armory Lorch were scaling the tower while Ned was trying to get through. Ned may have thought Lyanna was in the royal apartments rather than Elia, but did the Kingsguard listen to reason? Elia and her children were killed, because the three Kingsguard refused to allow Ned and his men through.

20 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Oh interesting approach, than why do you think when Quentyn present her with the contract she feels weird about it? 

Daenerys is one of the few female characters who have broken away from the patriarchy and made her own contracts. She doesn't have a "pimp" to push her "barrow" any longer. SHE makes the decisions, so to have someone show up and tell her that a marriage contract was done behind her back and without her knowledge IS weird and gross!

[Lady Rhodes]

@Feather Crystal I can see what you are saying regarding Jaime and Rhaegar's conversation, and I definitely agree with you concerning Ned and Jaime vs Aerys.  Ned certainly isn't infallible, but the overall impression I have is that Jaime hasn't really told people why he did what he did; I don't think Ned knew. I think that is supposed to be the real catharsis moment in the tub with Brienne when he reveals it (interestingly enough, being submerged in water is literature is often a literary device to show a symbolic baptism.  If my memory is correct, he passes out in the tub.  I think this is supposed to be the "rebirth" of Jaime.)  But I disagree regarding Barristan.  He specifically states that he thought he would have killed Robert if he saw him smiling over the dead bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon.  I have a very hard time believing that he wouldn't have done the same if it was Rhaella's royal children.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal I can see what you are saying regarding Jaime and Rhaegar's conversation, and I definitely agree with you concerning Ned and Jaime vs Aerys.  Ned certainly isn't infallible, but the overall impression I have is that Jaime hasn't really told people why he did what he did; I don't think Ned knew. I think that is supposed to be the real catharsis moment in the tub with Brienne when he reveals it (interestingly enough, being submerged in water is literature is often a literary device to show a symbolic baptism.  If my memory is correct, he passes out in the tub.  I think this is supposed to be the "rebirth" of Jaime.)  But I disagree regarding Barristan.  He specifically states that he thought he would have killed Robert if he saw him smiling over the dead bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon.  I have a very hard time believing that he wouldn't have done the same if it was Rhaella's royal children.

Gerold Hightower was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and Jaime specifically recalls this exchange:

Quote

 

"...Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

 

Barristan had been in the Kingsguard a lot longer than Jaime, and if he was considered "honorable" he would've taken the same position, that it wasn't his place to judge the king. My position about "honor" may not be the same as yours. I think Barristan is exactly what Sandor Clegane hates about knights. He views the office as highly hypocritical, using honor to justify truly vile acts. We don't get a Barristan Selmy POV until late in Dance, so we're only now getting a true glimpse into his thought processes.

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal I can see what you are saying regarding Jaime and Rhaegar's conversation, and I definitely agree with you concerning Ned and Jaime vs Aerys.  Ned certainly isn't infallible, but the overall impression I have is that Jaime hasn't really told people why he did what he did; I don't think Ned knew. I think that is supposed to be the real catharsis moment in the tub with Brienne when he reveals it (interestingly enough, being submerged in water is literature is often a literary device to show a symbolic baptism.  If my memory is correct, he passes out in the tub.  I think this is supposed to be the "rebirth" of Jaime.)  But I disagree regarding Barristan.  He specifically states that he thought he would have killed Robert if he saw him smiling over the dead bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon.  I have a very hard time believing that he wouldn't have done the same if it was Rhaella's royal children.

There is one prophecy/recipe than contributes to the idea that sacrifices are essential to the creation of dragons:

Quote

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

That sounds similar to Aegon V's attempt at Summerhal and Dany's "accidental" hatching of her dragons. If Aegon V knew about this part of the recipe then Aerys and Rhaegar probably knew too.

All the royal family was at Summerhal so probably all the KGs were there too.

[Lady Rhodes]

@Feather Crystal I recall that exchange between Jaime and Gerold as well, and I do think you have a point regarding Sandor and "honor".  What I am saying is that if Barristan feels he would have had a sense of moral outrage against the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, I think he would have had the same reaction to the murders of other children. 

I am not saying that there wasn't nefarious stuff a foot, but I am wondering how privy people were to it.  For instance, as far as the folks of Westeros are concerned, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.  While you and I may differ on what exactly happened, you and I both agree that the actual events were no where near that simplistic.  However, neither Barristan nor Jaime have much to add, beyond Jaime's conversation with Rhaegar and Barristan's general feeling that it didn't seem like him.  He says his biggest regret is not unhorsing Rhaegar at Harrenhal (how many lives would he have saved? he wonders.) This also points out that he was probably not privy to child sacrifice. 

I think that there were factions within the Kingsguard, with some being more privy to events than others.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

There is one prophecy/recipe than contributes to the idea that sacrifices are essential to the creation of dragons:

That sounds similar to Aegon V's attempt at Summerhall and Dany's "accidental" hatching of her dragons. If Aegon V knew about this part of the recipe then Aerys and Rhaegar would probably know too.

Agreed! Aegon V may have intended to sacrifice Aerys and Rhaegar at Summerhal, but as I've suggested before, Ser Duncan ran into the area where the ritual was being performed and picked up pregnant Rhaella and brought her out, and then ran back into the fire...probably to retrieve his Egg. 

Aerys II was unclear about the formula. He was familiar with the prophecy that the promised prince (dragon) would come through he and Rhaella's line, so they kept trying, but obviously he didn't put himself to the flame during the experiments, and so he was unable to hatch the eggs.

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal I recall that exchange between Jaime and Gerold as well, and I do think you have a point regarding Sandor and "honor".  What I am saying is that if Barristan feels he would have had a sense of moral outrage against the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, I think he would have had the same reaction to the murders of other children. 

I am not saying that there wasn't nefarious stuff a foot, but I am wondering how privy people were to it.  For instance, as far as the folks of Westeros are concerned, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.  While you and I may differ on what exactly happened, you and I both agree that the actual events were no where near that simplistic.  However, neither Barristan nor Jaime have much to add, beyond Jaime's conversation with Rhaegar and Barristan's general feeling that it didn't seem like him.  He says his biggest regret is not unhorsing Rhaegar at Harrenhal (how many lives would he have saved? he wonders.) This also points out that he was probably not privy to child sacrifice. 

I think that there were factions within the Kingsguard, with some being more privy to events than others.

I think the Targaryens were very secretive about how to hatch dragons, because they knew if anyone found out what they were doing down under Maegor's Holdfast that there'd be many people against them. Maegor killed every person that worked on that tower. I doubt that any of the Kingsguard knew what was going on under the tower. Their position is not to question the comings and goings of the royal family. The only person that likely knew what was going on was Varys. 

Edited to add: and maybe Tywin

[Lady Rhodes]

@Tucu and @Feather Crystal : I did pick up on that as well during my most recent 2nd reading of Dance, and I immediately thought of the Babe in the Woods heresy thread.  I think my initial thought was "well, shit."

My point is that I don't disagree that there was something mystical afoot, most probably in reference to hatching a dragon or combating the Others, but I have trouble reconciling those things with facts that we know.  I don't trust a lot of what people say to one another, because there can be hidden intentions and lies by omission that we are not privy to.  But I tend to give more credence to inner monologues in POV chapters. 

I don't think Barristan knew of child sacrifices, because that would surely be his biggest regret.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the Targaryens were very secretive about how to hatch dragons, because they knew if anyone found out what they were doing down under Maegor's Holdfast that there'd be many people against them. Maegor killed every person that worked on that tower. I doubt that any of the Kingsguard knew what was going on under the tower. There position is not to question the comings and goings of the royal family. The only person that likely knew what was going on was Varys.

 

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Aegon V may have intended to sacrifice Aerys and Rhaegar at Summerhal, but as I've suggested before, Ser Duncan ran into the area where the ritual was being performed and picked up pregnant Rhaella and brought her out, and then ran back into the fire...probably to retrieve his Egg. 

Aerys II was unclear about the formula. He was familiar with the prophecy that the promised prince (dragon) would come through he and Rhaella's line, so they kept trying, but obviously he didn't put himself to the flame during the experiments, and so he was unable to hatch the eggs.

I see your points, I do. I don't want you to think I don't.  I just have difficulty, narratively, reconciling them with other things we know about the characters.  I am willing to believe misdirection to a certain extent, but I think if we spend too long on that road, the entire fabric of the narrative reality starts to crumble. Aegon was concerned enough about the Targaryen madness that he tried to avoid his children intermarrying.  That doesn't sound, to me, like someone who is willing to sacrifice his children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren to the flames. 

Now - Jaeherys, on the other hand, I could see.  He was the one that forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of the woods witch.  I think it is more likely that he was trying to kill Aegon and then himself, so that Rhaegar could be the dragon.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Tucu and @Feather Crystal : I did pick up on that as well during my most recent 2nd reading of Dance, and I immediately thought of the Babe in the Woods heresy thread.  I think my initial thought was "well, shit."

My point is that I don't disagree that there was something mystical afoot, most probably in reference to hatching a dragon or combating the Others, but I have trouble reconciling those things with facts that we know.  I don't trust a lot of what people say to one another, because there can be hidden intentions and lies by omission that we are not privy to.  But I tend to give more credence to inner monologues in POV chapters. 

I don't think Barristan knew of child sacrifices, because that would surely be his biggest regret.

I am not sure how much Barristan knows, but from The Watcher we know what GRRM thinks guards should be:

Quote

"That is not for me to say, my prince." Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew.

I am convinced that The Watcher describes the essential functions of the KGs, the NW and the WW

[Melifeather]

So if the Targaryens were secretive about their egg hatching sacrifices, how did the rebels find out?

Recall that Kevan Lannister was kidnapping highborn nobels and holding them for ransom. The official story is that Tywin and Kevan were doing that to collect on debts owed to the Lannisters, but I suspect that they were also doing it to capture highborn maidens for the king. Bastard sons would've been viewed by Aerys as dragon seed, and therefore wanted for their experiments to hatch dragons.

I think some of the northern and Riverland Houses began to investigate these missing maidens and created the Kingswood Brotherhood so that they could gather intelligence without raising Aerys or Tywin's suspicions. I suspect Lyanna became involved with this group, and created the Wenda the White Fawn persona.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am not sure how much Barristan knows, but from The Watcher we know what GRRM thinks guards should be:

I am convinced that The Watcher describes the essential functions of the KGs, the NW and the WW

I am sure Barristan didn't ask extraneous questions, but I have a feeling that there was an "inner" Kingsguard so to speak and Jaime and Barristan were not privy to that.  Basically, Arthur Dayne.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Recall that Kevan Lannister was kidnapping highborn nobels and holding them for ransom. The official story is that Tywin and Kevan were doing that to collect on debts owed to the Lannisters, but I suspect that they were also doing it to capture highborn maidens for the king. Bastard sons would've been viewed by Aerys as dragon seed, and therefore wanted for their experiments to hatch dragons.

I think some of the northern Houses began to investigate these missing maidens and created the Kingswood Brotherhood so that they could gather intelligence without raising Aerys or Tywin's suspicions. I suspect Lyanna became involved with this group, and created the Wenda the White Fawn persona.

I don't recall this aspect with Kevan and Tywin kidnapping.  Can you tell me where it is noted in the text?  This would also merge into the grand northern conspiracy and a few other thoughts.  I would like to read on this further.

[Lady Rhodes]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

So if the Targaryens were secretive about their egg hatching sacrifices, how did the rebels find out?

I truly think Ned was speaking metaphorically.  The children = the people of the kingdoms.

[JNR]

18 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Where was Aegon during the tourney then ? The best answer is with Elia.

As an unborn fetus, barely even conceived, or else nonexistent entirely?  That I could buy.

We are told over and over by various sources that Elia's health was predictably frail.  I find it very hard to believe she traveled hundreds of miles, just to attend a tourney, and then back again, right at a time she might go into labor and require the best possible medical care.  Seems like a huge unnecessary risk.

It's even harder to believe she had just given birth, and instantly recovered from that, and took her newborn baby with her on this long trip to Harrenhal and back.  We have direct canonical info from Connington that she was nearly killed by that birth.

On the other hand, GRRM -- quite a good authority on these books -- said Aegon was only about a year old at the Sack.  Now that makes sense to me.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am sure Barristan didn't ask extraneous questions, but I have a feeling that there was an "inner" Kingsguard so to speak and Jaime and Barristan were not privy to that.  Basically, Arthur Dayne.

 

 

I don't recall this aspect with Kevan and Tywin kidnapping.  Can you tell me where it is noted in the text?  This would also merge into the grand northern conspiracy and a few other thoughts.  I would like to read on this further.

 

Alas, I cannot locate the text I'm thinking of from the books...it's a matter of thinking of the correct key words to find but, there's this from the wiki. (I'll keep looking too)

 

Quote

 

Reyne-Tarbeck Revolt

Upon the return to Casterly Rock, Ser Tywin charged Kevan with the task of ridding the westerlands of robber knights and bandit outlaws who had taken advantage of the weak rule of their father, Lord Tytos.^[12] Tywin also had Kevan collect the outstanding debts owed to Casterly Rock, and those who could not pay immediately had to surrender a family member as a hostage till the debt was settled. As Ser Harys Swyft was not able to pay at the time, he handed his daughter Dorna into Kevan's custody.^[14]

In contrast to Harys, Lord Roger Reyne refused to pay and Lord Walderan Tarbeck sought out Lord Tytos to convince him to countermand Tywin's actions. Tywin had Walderan imprisoned, however, and in response Lady Ellyn Tarbeck kidnapped Stafford Lannister. Tywin refused to be part of Tytos's negotiations with Ser Reynard Reyne, so Tytos had Kevan exchange Walderan for Stafford at Castamere.^[14]

According to a semi-canon source, Kevan aided Tywin in suppressing the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt in 261 AC. Ellyn laughed at Kevan when he demanded the surrender of Tarbeck Hall.^[15] Ellyn was slain when Tywin attacked the castle, however.^[14]

 

 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, JNR said:

As an unborn fetus, barely even conceived, or else nonexistent entirely?  That I could buy.

We are told over and over by various sources that Elia's health was predictably frail.  I find it very hard to believe she traveled hundreds of miles, just to attend a tourney, and then back again, right at a time she might go into labor and require the best possible medical care.  Seems like a huge unnecessary risk.

It's even harder to believe she had just given birth, and instantly recovered from that, and took her newborn baby with her on this long trip to Harrenhal and back.  We have direct canonical info from Connington that she was nearly killed by that birth.

On the other hand, GRRM -- quite a good authority on these books -- said Aegon was only about a year old at the Sack.  Now that makes sense to me.

If he was about a year old at the time of the Sack, then he was born around the time Brandon and Rickard were executed, which makes her roughly six months pregnant during the tourney at Harrenhal which she attended. She had to have been there for people to have been shocked when Rhaegar rode past her to place the laurel in Lyanna's lap. This also explains why Rhaegar left shortly after the tourney to go to Dragonstone, because he was in attendance when she gave birth. That is why he wasn't there when Brandon rode to Kings Landing to command he come out and die. When Rhaegar returned from the south, Elia must have been with him. 

Edited to add: I've got to go back and revise that timeline again to adjust Aegon's age.