How powerful were the Manderlys in the Reach?

[Lord of Oldstones]

During the visit of Jace Velaryon,Lord Manderly  wanted the former possession of their house in the Reach to be restored calling out North as cold and dismal.

Seems like Manderlys are nowhere close to their strength and influence in the North as they previously were in the Reach.

So,how powerful were the Manderlys when they were forced to exile (apparently for growing too powerful)? 

House Manderly's top rival Peakes seems to have wide but poor land.Were they powerful but just with respect to the Peakes?

[Canon Claude]

6 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

During the visit of Jace Velaryon,Lord Manderly  wanted the former possession of their house in the Reach to be restored calling out North as cold and dismal.

Seems like Manderlys are nowhere close to their strength and influence in the North as they previously were in the Reach.

So,how powerful were the Manderlys when they were forced to exile (apparently for growing too powerful)? 

House Manderly's top rival Peakes seems to have wide but poor land.Were they powerful but just with respect to the Peakes?

I think that if the Manderly family was able to found a whole city when they settled in the North, even after they were forced to go on the run from their homeland, they must have been either the third or fourth most powerful house in the Reach.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Powerful enough to have been seen as a threat. Considering no other House in the Reach got exiled for being a threat, I'd say the Manderly's would've had to of been pretty powerful. 

[Lord of Oldstones]

8 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I think that if the Manderly family was able to found a whole city when they settled in the North, even after they were forced to go on the run from their homeland, they must have been either the third or fourth most powerful house in the Reach.

Imo they were 3rd most powerful house, after the Gardeners and the Hightowers and perhaps they were growing nearly as rich as those houses.Rowans who are currently 3rd most powerful(in mainland) seems to have gained more strength after claiming parts of formely wide Osgrey lands.

Manderly lands along the Mander must have been super fertile with number of large towns.Gardeners prolly claimed bulk of those fertile lands and gifted bit of those  to the Peakes.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Lightoftheast said:

Imo they were 3rd most powerful house, after the Gardeners and the Hightowers and perhaps they were growing nearly as rich as those houses.Rowans who are currently 3rd most powerful(in mainland) seems to have gained more strength after claiming parts of formely wide Osgrey lands.

Manderly lands along the Mander must have been super fertile with number of large towns.Gardeners prolly claimed bulk of those fertile lands and gifted bit of those  to the Peakes.

I am not sure if Rowans are currently second to Hightowers. Redwynes(althouh they are on island) seem to be one of the most influential and prestigious non-great houses in Westeros. There are also Tarlys, Oakhearts and Florents(although they are perhaps more rich than powerful).

[Lord of Oldstones]

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure if Rowans are currently second to Hightowers. Redwynes(althouh they are on island) seem to be one of the most influential and prestigious non-great houses in Westeros. There are also Tarlys, Oakhearts and Florents(although they are perhaps more rich than powerful).

Redwynes are undoubtedly vastly richer and influential.I mentioned mainland House in the backet for that very reason.But Redwynes are all about naval power.Havent heard of single Redwyne force engaging in any major westerosi war in the land. 

Tarlys rule the Dornish marshes.Yes some part of their land could be fertile but only reason Tarlys are more prominent in present series is cause they've got Randyll Tarly,finest commander in all seven kingdom.Oakheart land lies in the border of west.They too are probably the beneficiary of decline of the Osgreys.While Florents are the closest blood relation of the Gardeners they're not particular powerful or rich with respect to numerous houses of the Reach.I don't remember a single Florent being mentioned in the FAB.

Current Lady Rowan is Bethany Redwyne(probably sister of Paxter) and Baelor Hightower's wife is a Rowan.Their seat was also the place where the great host of West and Reach stayed for a time.Oakhearts,Tarlys and Florents are nowhere near Rowans.

[HexMachina]

24 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure if Rowans are currently second to Hightowers. Redwynes(althouh they are on island) seem to be one of the most influential and prestigious non-great houses in Westeros. There are also Tarlys, Oakhearts and Florents(although they are perhaps more rich than powerful).

The post you quoted does say 3rd most powerful mainland tbf. (I.e. excluding the arbour)

And while I’m no expert on military powers I wouldsay that the other houses you list seem more “old money” prestigious and rich thannpowerful as such. The Florentine’s in particular don’t strike me as exceptionally strongly militarily unless I have just totally forgot something

[The hairy bear]

I agree with your points supporting that the Manderlys should have been very powerful, since they were considered a threat and were able  only to found a city in the North. The amount of manpower that they got to accompany them to the exile had to be huge, in order to not only preserve their religion but make it predominant in their area of influence.

But I can't reconcile that with the fact that we are told that the Peakes they were given "the former Manderly seat at Dunstonbury and its attendant lands", and also, at some point, even another castle (Whitegrove). If the Manderlys by themselves had been that powerful, the Peakes would be terribly impressive. And yet, we are told that after the Field of Fire "the slow fall of this proud house had begun." and that although "their lands were wide and well-peopled", they were "not particularly rich" and "no longer did they command pride of place amongst the bannermen of Highgarden."

So perhaps the Manderlys were not as powerful, after all?

[Paxter Redwyne]

3 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Redwynes are undoubtedly vastly richer and influential.I mentioned mainland House in the backet for that very reason.But Redwynes are all about naval power.Havent heard of single Redwyne force engaging in any major westerosi war in the land. 

 

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The post you quoted does say 3rd most powerful mainland tbf. (I.e. excluding the arbour)

I just wanted to be sure you didn't forgot about Redwynes. As a Lord of the Arbor, it is my duty to defend honor of my house.

3 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Tarlys rule the Dornish marshes.Yes some part of their land could be fertile but only reason Tarlys are more prominent in present series is cause they've got Randyll Tarly,finest commander in all seven kingdom.

Perhaps, but they seemed already powerful under Aenys and Aegon III, with Samwell the Savage and Alan respectively.

3 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Oakheart land lies in the border of west.They too are probably the beneficiary of decline of the Osgreys.

We don't know too much about them to be honest. But considering that Lord Oakheart commanded left wing of the army in Field of Fire, I would guess that they were already quite powerful.

3 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

While Florents are the closest blood relation of the Gardeners they're not particular powerful or rich with respect to numerous houses of the Reach.I don't remember a single Florent being mentioned in the FAB.

 

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The Florentine’s in particular don’t strike me as exceptionally strongly militarily unless I have just totally forgot something

Well, as I wrote they are more rich than strong militarily. But at least Alester was described as quite rich so I think they may be at least one of the richest houses in Reach, if not the strongest.

 

 

Anyway, Manderlys probably were strongest house in the Reach after Hightowers, at least for a time. If Perceon III exiled them they must have been quite big threat to him.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Manderlys weren’t necessarily richer or more powerful in the Reach than they are today. Their lands were just in a more pleasant climate, more fertile and enjoyable to live in. But they didn’t rule a city of tens of thousands of people back then, nor did they control a lucrative port. And the extent of their lands today are likely greater than in the Reach, even if not as fertile per square mile.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Manderlys weren’t necessarily richer or more powerful in the Reach than they are today. Their lands were just in a more pleasant climate, more fertile and enjoyable to live in. But they didn’t rule a city of tens of thousands of people back then, nor did they control a lucrative port. And the extent of their lands today are likely greater than in the Reach, even if not as fertile per square mile.

That seems to be wrong. The Manderlys supposedly controlled as many lands in the Reach giving credence to the claim that their name gave the Mander its name rather than the other way around. That implies that they controlled vast stretches of land along the river, most likely on both banks of the river.

8 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

Imo they were 3rd most powerful house, after the Gardeners and the Hightowers and perhaps they were growing nearly as rich as those houses.Rowans who are currently 3rd most powerful(in mainland) seems to have gained more strength after claiming parts of formely wide Osgrey lands.

We don't really know who the 3rd most powerful house there is. The Rowans are powerful, but we don't know how powerful they actually are.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But I can't reconcile that with the fact that we are told that the Peakes they were given "the former Manderly seat at Dunstonbury and its attendant lands", and also, at some point, even another castle (Whitegrove). If the Manderlys by themselves had been that powerful, the Peakes would be terribly impressive. And yet, we are told that after the Field of Fire "the slow fall of this proud house had begun." and that although "their lands were wide and well-peopled", they were "not particularly rich" and "no longer did they command pride of place amongst the bannermen of Highgarden."

So perhaps the Manderlys were not as powerful, after all?

That would depend on what the Gardeners did with all the lands of the Manderlys. Giving the Peakes (one of) their seat(s) doesn't mean they got all their lands.

If the Manderlys really had great lands along the banks of the Mander then their may have been multiple branches of the house, controlling multiple castles and keeps. The Manderlys rose to really great power after the decline of Gardener power during the reign of Garth X and by the time of their exile they may have effectively become a very important female branch of House Gardener in addition to being rich (we do know that Lord Manderly had married one of Garth X's daughters back in the day). 

But it also seems likely that the Peakes lost lands and peasants and the life after the Conquest. The Tyrells would have wanted their own men to rise, pushing those old Gardener cronies slowly but surely out of the leadership of the Reach.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be wrong. The Manderlys supposedly controlled as many lands in the Reach giving credence to the claim that their name gave the Mander its name rather than the other way around. That implies that they controlled vast stretches of land along the river, most likely on both banks of the river.

We don't really know who the 3rd most powerful house there is. The Rowans are powerful, but we don't know how powerful they actually are.

That would depend on what the Gardeners did with all the lands of the Manderlys. Giving the Peakes (one of) their seat(s) doesn't mean they got all their lands.

If the Manderlys really had great lands along the banks of the Mander then their may have been multiple branches of the house, controlling multiple castles and keeps. The Manderlys rose to really great power after the decline of Gardener power during the reign of Garth X and by the time of their exile they may have effectively become a very important female branch of House Gardener in addition to being rich (we do know that Lord Manderly had married one of Garth X's daughters back in the day). 

But it also seems likely that the Peakes lost lands and peasants and the life after the Conquest. The Tyrells would have wanted their own men to rise, pushing those old Gardener cronies slowly but surely out of the leadership of the Reach.

You have no idea how much land the Manderlys ruled along the Mander. However, even today there is only one Reach House which rules a city, and that is House Hightower. So the Manderlys rule a larger city than any other Reach house even today. Plus their lands exceed those of House Hightower in extent.

[Corvo the Crow]

I have always assumed Hightowers were part of the reason Manderlys got exiled.

-Hightowers have a city where?

Honeywine which has. Access to just the southernmost reach.

-Manderly lands were located where?

Mander which has access to the entirety of it.

-Is it odd then that there are no cities on Mander? 

Not at all as the only house on the Mander that got powerful enough was exiled because THEY OVERREACHED.

[Joey Crows]

Seems like they were gaining enough power to be a threat, but obviously not enough to avoid being kicked out of the Reach. As that hasn't happened to any other house that I'm aware of, I'd say they probably weren't in the top five most powerful houses in that part of the realm and really pissed off those houses ahead of them. Trading the bounty of the Reach for the cold of White Harbor notwithstanding, they've made a strong position for themselves in the sparse North. 

[Lord of Oldstones]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

We don't really know who the 3rd most powerful house there is. The Rowans are powerful, but we don't know how powerful they actually are.

They are the Marshall of the Northmarch.Their seat is literally named Golden grove.They have super wide land,if one sees the map,there are no powerful lords or known castle anywhere near them for a long long distance.Description of prime House Osgrey is pretty similar to Manderlys in North with dozen petty lord doing them homage.Rowans seem to have taken most of it and add it to the pre existing Rowan lands.Their marital relations in the main series,Rowan becoming Hand of the king suggests they're very rich and influental.Oakhearts are in west coast and really near Crane lands.Dont think they are extensive.

[Paxter Redwyne]

23 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

They are the Marshall of the Northmarch.Their seat is literally named Golden grove.They have super wide land,if one sees the map,there are no powerful lords or known castle anywhere near them for a long long distance.Description of prime House Osgrey is pretty similar to Manderlys in North with dozen petty lord doing them homage.Rowans seem to have taken most of it and add it to the pre existing Rowan lands.Their marital relations in the main series,Rowan becoming Hand of the king suggests they're very rich and influental.Oakhearts are in west coast and really near Crane lands.Dont think they are extensive.

North-East of the Reach also seem pretty empty. The only lords who have seat there are Footlys if I remember correctly.

[Bernie Mac]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:03 PM, Lightoftheast said:

During the visit of Jace Velaryon,Lord Manderly  wanted the former possession of their house in the Reach to be restored calling out North as cold and dismal.

Not in that actual passage 

Here the prince faced a shrewder bargainer. “White Harbor is not unsympathetic to your mother’s plight,” Manderly declared. “Mine own forebears were despoiled of their birthright when our enemies drove us into exile on these cold northern shores. When the Old King visited us so long ago, he spoke of the wrong that had been done to us and promised to make redress. In pledge of that, His Grace offered the hand of his daughter Princess Viserra to my great-grandsire

It was a royal marriage he wanted. not his former lands. Royal marriage brings influence, allows you to be a mover and shaker in the realm. 

The Peakes don't seem to have lost lands in the century since the Gardeners were extinguished, but they did lose influence

All this had ended with the coming of the dragons. Lord Armen Peake and his sons had perished on the Field of Fire beside King Mern and his. With House Gardener extinguished, Aegon the Conqueror had granted Highgarden and the rule of the Reach to House Tyrell, the former royal stewards. The Tyrells had no blood ties to the Peakes, and no reason to favor them. And thus the slow fall of this proud house had begun. A century later, the Peakes still held three castles, and their lands were wide and well-peopled, if not particularly rich, but no longer did they command pride of place amongst the bannermen of Highgarden.

The Manderlys and Peakes are still playing the same game in Fire and Blood, they are chasing influence, which is acquired through royal marriage (and the favors and connections that brings). 

 

Quote

Seems like Manderlys are nowhere close to their strength and influence in the North as they previously were in the Reach.

That is impossible to  tell given the limited data, but there probably is some truth to it. The Reach is one of the two richest regions, the North one of the four poorest. Being the richest in the North might not make be the equivalent of being in the top 5  in the Reach. 

What is apparent is them reaching a glass ceiling in the North despite their wealth. Their religion and culture marks them as outsiders, with fewer marriages to the great Houses of the North, including the Starks.

The Starks were intelligent when they gave prime real estate to the Manderly's as they knew the Manderly's could never challenge them unlike the previous Northern lords who ruled their lands. Wealth they'd amass easily, but not prestige and influence - not in the North at least, they'd have to look South for that.

Quote

So,how powerful were the Manderlys when they were forced to exile (apparently for growing too powerful)? 

Less than the Hightowers, roughly the equivalent of the Peakes, beyond that hard to say. The Peakes being the ones to drive the Manderly's out suggests they had the advantage. 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You have no idea how much land the Manderlys ruled along the Mander. However, even today there is only one Reach House which rules a city, and that is House Hightower. So the Manderlys rule a larger city than any other Reach house even today. Plus their lands exceed those of House Hightower in extent.

Nobody ever said the Manderlys were as powerful as the Hightowers - but we don't know how powerful they were and how many lands they directly or indirectly controlled. If you control multiple towns, say, you can control a lot of people, too.

Do you know how large the Manderly lands in the North actually are? Wyman gives us his informal sphere of influence in ADwD, not a precise description of all the lands and houses sworn to House Manderly.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I have always assumed Hightowers were part of the reason Manderlys got exiled.

-Hightowers have a city where?

Honeywine which has. Access to just the southernmost reach.

-Manderly lands were located where?

Mander which has access to the entirety of it.

-Is it odd then that there are no cities on Mander? 

Not at all as the only house on the Mander that got powerful enough was exiled because THEY OVERREACHED.

Highgarden and the Gardener lands are also at the Mander. That Highgarden isn't surrounded by a city makes literally no sense at all.

My guess is that the Manderlys acquired more and more lands which were originally directly controlled by the Gardeners through them (often?) intermarrying with them - one assumes as many or even more Manderlys as Peakes were queens of the Reach - and as many Gardener daughters or more married into House Manderly. That way the Manderlys clearly could have become both rivals to the ruling branch of House Gardener - thanks to their claims through the female line - remember there was at least one Queen Regnant in the Reach, and perhaps her king/prince consort was a Manderly - which may have been seen as stronger than the claims of second cousins and the like. Remember that Garth X was succeeded by a second cousin rather than by any of his Gardener-Manderly or Gardener-Peake (great-)grandchildren.

2 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Seems like they were gaining enough power to be a threat, but obviously not enough to avoid being kicked out of the Reach. As that hasn't happened to any other house that I'm aware of, I'd say they probably weren't in the top five most powerful houses in that part of the realm and really pissed off those houses ahead of them. Trading the bounty of the Reach for the cold of White Harbor notwithstanding, they've made a strong position for themselves in the sparse North. 

It seems it was a somewhat friendly exile. They were able to take their wealth and many of their retainers and knights, etc. with them. But one assumes the Peakes really did show up with a large army in front of their gates to help ensure they really find the way to the harbors to leave the Reach for good.

2 hours ago, Lightoftheast said:

They are the Marshall of the Northmarch.Their seat is literally named Golden grove.They have super wide land,if one sees the map,there are no powerful lords or known castle anywhere near them for a long long distance.Description of prime House Osgrey is pretty similar to Manderlys in North with dozen petty lord doing them homage.Rowans seem to have taken most of it and add it to the pre existing Rowan lands.Their marital relations in the main series,Rowan becoming Hand of the king suggests they're very rich and influental.Oakhearts are in west coast and really near Crane lands.Dont think they are extensive.

There is no indication that the Rowans are the Marshalls of the Northmarch. That was a title from the old Gardener days before the Conquest and we have no reason to believe the Tyrells have any need for a Northmarch or marshalls there. The Westermen are no longer enemies of the Reach so there is no need to defend the borders there.

In fact, we don't have any reason to believe the Osgrey lands were ever vast. They not have been sworn to the Rowans, once, but the Rowans always were a great house of the Reach, going back to the Age of Heroes. The prestige of the Osgreys seems to come more from the fact that they once held important military offices, but those do not necessarily reflect wealth in land.

The Oakhearts are always named as one of the most powerful/influential houses in the Reach.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not in that actual passage 

Here the prince faced a shrewder bargainer. “White Harbor is not unsympathetic to your mother’s plight,” Manderly declared. “Mine own forebears were despoiled of their birthright when our enemies drove us into exile on these cold northern shores. When the Old King visited us so long ago, he spoke of the wrong that had been done to us and promised to make redress. In pledge of that, His Grace offered the hand of his daughter Princess Viserra to my great-grandsire

It was a royal marriage he wanted. not his former lands. Royal marriage brings influence, allows you to be a mover and shaker in the realm.

The wrong done to them was their exile. And they wanted redress for that. The story as told by Lord Desmond does not reflect the story told by Gyldayn about Viserra's betrothal. The Old King didn't visit Lord Theomore around the time the betrothal was made nor was this betrothal made as a means to offer redress to the Manderlys for the wrongs done to them by houses Gardener and Peake in ancient days.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Peakes don't seem to have lost lands in the century since the Gardeners were extinguished, but they did lose influence.

It is not confirmed that the Peakes did lose lands, but it is not denied, either. This sentence

Quote

A century later, the Peakes still held three castles, and their lands were wide and well-peopled, if not particularly rich, but no longer did they command pride of place amongst the bannermen of Highgarden.

does not confirm that they Aegon I, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys I, and Viserys I allowed them to keep all the lands they had back in the days of the Gardeners. All it says is that they had wide and well-peopled lands in the days of Lord Unwin.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that the Rowans are the Marshalls of the Northmarch. That was a title from the old Gardener days before the Conquest and we have no reason to believe the Tyrells have any need for a Northmarch or marshalls there. The Westermen are no longer enemies of the Reach so there is no need to defend the borders there.

In fact, we don't have any reason to believe the Osgrey lands were ever vast. They not have been sworn to the Rowans, once, but the Rowans always were a great house of the Reach, going back to the Age of Heroes. The prestige of the Osgreys seems to come more from the fact that they once held important military offices, but those do not necessarily reflect wealth in land.

I don't know how *vast* their lands were but they definitely had a lot of people  swearing fealty in addition to the martial offices. 

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights. We had four castles then, and watchtowers on the hills to warn of the coming of our enemies.

20 lords and a 100 landed knights along with four castles (worth noting)  would definitely put them on the higher list of vassals, especially with the marriages they were getting. with the "great families"  like the Hightowers, Blackwoods, and Swanns. Coldmoat is of a similar size and shape to Torrhen's Square, by the descriptions of both. I wouldnt' have any qualms at equating them to the Florents. 

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't know how *vast* their lands were but they definitely had a lot of people  swearing fealty in addition to the martial offices. 

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights. We had four castles then, and watchtowers on the hills to warn of the coming of our enemies.

20 lords and a 100 landed knights along with four castles (worth noting)  would definitely put them on the higher list of vassals, especially with the marriages they were getting. with the "great families"  like the Hightowers, Blackwoods, and Swanns. Coldmoat is of a similar size and shape to Torrhen's Square, by the descriptions of both. I wouldnt' have any qualms at equating them to the Florents. 

Ah, well, perhaps old Ser Eustace's family really was something, once. But keep in mind that those are stories told by an old man who idealizes the past to no small degree, a man who cannot even remember the men of his serving men at that. The Westerlings also got that one girl becoming a queen of a Targaryen yet it wouldn't exactly be an accurate picture - although not completely wrong - if Robb had phrased in a way that implied that Targaryens married Westerlings once. Even a Mormont married a Hightower once, did he not? 

We also do know that there were different branches of Osgreys once, those four castles could have been castles held by such branches, not part of 'the Osgrey lordship' as such. Although that wouldn't be necessarily a sign of great power, either. This is the Reach and Lord Unwin's three castles do not make him a particularly wealthy or powerful lord. House Peake is in decline despite the fact that it looks very powerful and prestigious.

But I never said that I think the Osgreys never were more powerful than they are in TSS. Just that I very much doubt that their lands were once, more or less, the Rowan lands of today. If that were the case then the Osgrey should have been included as one of the great houses of the pre-Conquest Reach in TWoIaF. But they were not.

The Florents, one assumes, would have also declined considerably during the Tyrell reign. They are the ones talking about their claims to Highgarden the loudest, and that makes it very likely they were not exactly by any Lord Tyrell between Harlan and Mace. Wouldn't surprise me if we heard the Florents stood with the Black Dragon in one of the Blackfyre Rebellions (although not the Second and perhaps also not the First).

And come to think of it:

This is the Reach we are talking about. How many houses are there who hold more than just one castle? It wouldn't surprise me if there were other (petty) lordly branches of House Tyrell (some of Mace's uncles or cousins), Redwyne (we have no idea how many castles and other seats there are on the Arbor, do we?), Rowan, Oakheart, etc. The Reach is the most populous of the Seven Kingdoms, and it is not as vast as the North. The people there must live somewhere, and both the wealth and the population there certainly could allow certain nobles to build and maintain more that just the one castle. The Velaryons built their second castle on Driftmark, too, so that's not exactly all that much of an issue if you have the coin.