What is worse?

[norwaywolf123]

House Frey is one of the most hated houses in ASOIAF both by readers. Much of this can be traced to the red wedding. During which many of the most popular characters and their supporters were killed.

Is this hate for House Frey or distaste solely due to the actions of House Frey? Or is it more due to partisanship?

Let's say that Joffrey had a elder sister(that he does not have in ASOIAF) and during a peace treaty between the Iron Throne and Robb Stark's kingdom, she was to wed to Robb. During the wedding, the supporters of House Lannister show up and are later massacrered similar to red wedding. Would people then denounce House Stark as they do House Frey? 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Of course. I mean, there are people who hate House Stark now, and claim that House Frey where in the right. That's one of the main points of ASOIAF, you get to choose who which characters to root for. No character is written to be morally white. 

I'm sure that alot of hate for House Frey stems from partisanship, which only makes sense, since at the end of the day we are reading these books to entertain ourselves, and are therefore going to take a liking to certain characters, and a disliking to other characters. Sure, we could look at everything from a purely logical standpoint, but where's the fun in that? 

[Joey Crows]

I think so. I mean that would totally change the dynamics of who people root for. Definitely the Freys are judged by how they are portrayed through the POVs of the other characters, which influence a lot. But if the Starks or another house perpetrated something as egregious as the Red Wedding then they would be hated as well.

[Ser Leftwich]

Oh goody, another Frey-apologist thread! Lying murderers are bad, regardless of name. Not that difficult of a concept.

[Angel Eyes]

For what it’s worth, the Freys weren’t very popular in-universe before the Red Wedding, due to Walder’s unpleasant attitude and exacting exuberant tolls for using his bridge and most other members inheriting this. 

The reason why people support the Starks at the beginning is that they’re a mostly stable, loving family who won’t slaughter each other at the drop of a hat. 

[Darth Sidious]

5 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Of course. I mean, there are people who hate House Stark now, and claim that House Frey where in the right. That's one of the main points of ASOIAF, you get to choose who which characters to root for. No character is written to be morally white. 

I'm sure that alot of hate for House Frey stems from partisanship, which only makes sense, since at the end of the day we are reading these books to entertain ourselves, and are therefore going to take a liking to certain characters, and a disliking to other characters. Sure, we could look at everything from a purely logical standpoint, but where's the fun in that? 

I have no problem admitting why I like House Frey.  It's because I don't like the Starks.  So yeah, there is partisanship at work.  

[Angel Eyes]

57 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

For what it’s worth, the Freys weren’t very popular in-universe before the Red Wedding, due to Walder’s unpleasant attitude and exacting exuberant tolls for using his bridge and most other members inheriting this. 

The reason why people support the Starks at the beginning is that they’re a mostly stable, loving family who won’t slaughter each other at the drop of a hat. 

I might also add that the Starks’ opponents are much, much worse.

On the Lannisters alone: 

Tywin abuses his son Tyrion, had Tyrion’s wife gang-raped, which earned him a double-tap from a crossbow (I guess Tyrion hadn’t heard of the Mozambique Drill). He also ordered Elia Martell to be raped, bisected and her head smashed.

Cersei orders the mass slaughter of children, including selling the mother of two of them into slavery, has numerous people subjected to twisted experiments, and tried to have her own brother murdered in the thick of battle

Joffrey: Shoots at peasants for asking for food, has his guards beat his betrothed, a girl of 12 and threatens her with rape, orders mass slaughter because somebody threw poop at his head.

 

Ramsay Snow is a serial rapist who took the Hornwood by force and left the lady to eat her own fingers, hunts women with dogs, flays Ironborn after promising safe passage and abuses his (technically) 11-year-old wife in several ways, including bestiality.

 

The Freys are mostly unpleasant people to be around due to their odious attitudes and would slaughter each other when Walder dies.

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 hour ago, Geo Da Ray said:

I have no problem admitting why I like House Frey.  It's because I don't like the Starks.  So yeah, there is partisanship at work.  

I know, that's literally what I just said . . . . xD

[Dorian Martell's son]

-=

8 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

House Frey is one of the most hated houses in ASOIAF both by readers. Much of this can be traced to the red wedding. During which many of the most popular characters and their supporters were killed.

Is this hate for House Frey or distaste solely due to the actions of House Frey? Or is it more due to partisanship?

Let's say that Joffrey had a elder sister(that he does not have in ASOIAF) and during a peace treaty between the Iron Throne and Robb Stark's kingdom, she was to wed to Robb. During the wedding, the supporters of House Lannister show up and are later massacrered similar to red wedding. Would people then denounce House Stark as they do House Frey? 

People would be angry ast optimus prime initially, but when they realize who had stockpiled energon cubes, the zentradi would eventually come around and see who megatron really is 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

-=

People would be angry ast optimus prime initially, but when they realize who had stockpiled energon cubes, the zentradi would eventually come around and see who megatron really is 

what?

You blew my mind. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, divica said:

what?

You blew my mind. 

I'm here to help 

[HexMachina]

Not directly comparable of course but the fandom generally cheers the murder of Joffrey at his own wedding and is positively gleeful over Manderly butchering the Frey’s and serving them in a pie (which has never sat comfortably at all with me, because it’s pretty fucking abhorrent regardless of how awful those particular Frey’s were) to their kin. Not for a second saying the Frey’s were justified with the RW but I think the introduction of the Starks as our protagonists from the beginning makes the general readership more likely to side with them

[Arthur Peres]

It depends how it is written.

Robb was always potrait as a honorable and just character, even his enemies like Kevan go out of their way to defend his honor. 

If House Stark did something morale disgusting as the Red Wedding Robb would need to be a totally diferent character.

But sympaty for the characters does matter a lot. If was Cersei getting wrecked by Ramsey instead of Theon, I would probably not feel sorry for her at all.

[Marcelowww]

I dont hate the Freys, actually, I understand why they did the Red Wedding.

Robb disrespected an ally and broke a vow. And lets not forget that Walder Frey lost an heir fighting for Robb. 

Of course it was something horrible, but it was war, not a tourney.

 

[Marcelowww]

On 12/19/2018 at 4:50 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Let's say that Joffrey had a elder sister(that he does not have in ASOIAF) and during a peace treaty between the Iron Throne and Robb Stark's kingdom, she was to wed to Robb. During the wedding, the supporters of House Lannister show up and are later massacrered similar to red wedding. Would people then denounce House Stark as they do House Frey? 

Yeah, they would.  The laws of hospitality are sacred in Westeros; mainly in the North, maybe even the vassals Houses of the Starks would be angry with that action.

[Joey Crows]

4 minutes ago, Marcelowww said:

I dont hate the Freys, actually, I understand why they did the Red Wedding.

Robb disrespected an ally and broke a vow. And lets not forget that Walder Frey lost an heir fighting for Robb. 

Of course it was something horrible, but it was war, not a tourney.

 

Although Walder Frey didn't give a shit about his heir. He's got like 20 of them. He did this for his pride, ambitions, and because Tywin told him too. 

[Marcelowww]

1 minute ago, Joey Crows said:

Although Walder Frey didn't give a shit about his heir. He's got like 20 of them. He did this for his pride, ambitions, and because Tywin told him too. 

Thats exactly what im saying, but Robb was responsible (and fool) anyway.

[Joey Crows]

1 minute ago, Marcelowww said:

Thats exactly what im saying, but Robb was responsible (and fool) anyway.

Yes, but doesn't that turn his actions away from the "this is a war" reasoning and into something less easily forgiven as a necessary evil? House Frey is a villainous entity not solely because of what they did, but also why they did it.

[Marcelowww]

4 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

 House Frey is a villainous entity not solely because of what they did, but also why they did it.

Actually, I think is the other way around. What they did was inexcusable, to massacre hundreds of people (including a son and a mother) at a wedding in your own seat is something terrible. But their reasons were all justifiable.

[Joey Crows]

42 minutes ago, Marcelowww said:

Actually, I think is the other way around. What they did was inexcusable, to massacre hundreds of people (including a son and a mother) at a wedding in your own seat is something terrible. But their reasons were all justifiable.

So that's why I said "not solely because of what they did."  In war hundreds of people get killed, including sons and mothers often as not, but it gets excused because it's to help win the war. Tywin initiated this to help win the war, but House Frey didn't care who won the war, they did it for personal reasons. So while I do think the combo of the actions and motives both affect perception, if they had killed all those people purely to win the war or defend their lands they wouldn't be seen as so terrible. Even though the act was still terrible in itself.