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Does Asoiaf Have a True Protagonist? *SPOILERS*

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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. And although I have stated my views on sticking to vows blindly many times, I’ll do it yet again: even if the neutrality of the NW was part of the vows, I still maintain that sometimes the right thing to do is to break a vow. People should think and weigh options and possible consequences, and then make the better informed decision they can. And not just hide behind empty words.

:agree:

He absolutely has very good and very personal reasons to want the annihilation of house Bolton. Good thing Ramsay made it easy for him when he threatened not only Jon’s life and the NW itself, but also the lives of people who are guests at CB. 

Rather like Janos Slynt.   He earned his execution, and  Jon would never have executed him for reasons of revenge alone, but killing him gave Jon satisfaction.

I think we're certainly invited to query whether "love is the death of duty" is in fact a correct sentiment.  

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Wow, so Slynt, Thorne and Bowen Marsh are the good guys now and Jon is evil and a deserter?

I must have missed something while reading ASOIAF several times….

You missed the part where you fell in love with the figment of The George's imagination known as Daenerys, giving rise to a belief that Jon must fail because Daenerys is the promised prince. There can be only one! 

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2 hours ago, Sweet Desire said:

I don't believe in protagonist in ASOIAF but there is no doubt that Daenerys Targaryen is the central character of this story.

She is certainly one of them. 

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On 12/20/2018 at 3:46 PM, Son of Man said:

Right, and I think they will be just as deeply developed as the other main characters.  We will know clearly their motivations for doing what they did.  The OP used Tyrion as an example.  It's built up hate and loathing.  His perceived sense of having been mistreated all his life.  Yet he is blind to the fact that he was living on his father's allowance up until he got accused of murdering Joffrey.  Imagine a mature man living off his father and then killing that man.  

 

I think a case can be made that Tyrion was not necessarily in his right mind, and was temporarily insane, when he murdered Shae and then his father.  It goes back to his experience with Tysha and (and Tywin's horrible ending of that experience).  It's more Tyrion's actions and attitude afterward that bother me - the increased drinking, raping the prostitute, vowing to rape and kill Cersei...

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8 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I think a case can be made that Tyrion was not necessarily in his right mind, and was temporarily insane, when he murdered Shae and then his father.  It goes back to his experience with Tysha and (and Tywin's horrible ending of that experience).  It's more Tyrion's actions and attitude afterward that bother me - the increased drinking, raping the prostitute, vowing to rape and kill Cersei...

Maybe, but I still think it is absolutely inexcusable and horrific what he did to Shae. And I don't know... IMO it reveals a lot about him. He only cares for the broken things, when it's convenient for him. When his empathy stands in the way of what he wants and thinks he needs and is entitled to, he is able to rid himself of it quickly. The moment he considers himself wronged, he apparently feels he can do whatever he wants to and doesn't even once feel sorry for it. He only calls her false, duh he hired her to be false. she was a prostitute, he told her exactly how to behave. What did he expect? She didn't owe him anything and he just cold-bloodedly murdered her. Even though he knew she had been raped by her father, he knew she couldn't have had an easy life. But apparently in the end that didn't matter to him. 

I don't care for Tywin though, he had it coming.

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I agree. To me it just killed any sympathy I had for Tyrion. I understand how he would want to kill Tywin to avenge Tysha, but I would think, after realizing that you've raped and discarded the only person who loved you romantically, you would be filled with shame and remorse and humility. The last thing I would be likely to do is to go and brutalize YET ANOTHER woman for being a "dirty ho". Last time he did it it was to Tysha. He should be filled realization of enormity of his crime* and colossal regret, instead of judging other people, especially relatively helpless women.

Yes, fine, Tywin pushed him into it, but still Tyrion did rape her, and I'd expect him to be his own harshest judge.

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18 hours ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

I agree. To me it just killed any sympathy I had for Tyrion. I understand how he would want to kill Tywin to avenge Tysha, but I would think, after realizing that you've raped and discarded the only person who loved you romantically, you would be filled with shame and remorse and humility. The last thing I would be likely to do is to go and brutalize YET ANOTHER woman for being a "dirty ho". Last time he did it it was to Tysha. He should be filled realization of enormity of his crime* and colossal regret, instead of judging other people, especially relatively helpless women.

Yes, fine, Tywin pushed him into it, but still Tyrion did rape her, and I'd expect him to be his own harshest judge.

:agree:

I couldn't agree more. It still always baffles me how ppl just "overlook" that he did rape Tysha. Yes, Tywin was to blame for the situation and he did emotionally and sexually abuse Tyrion, when he did what he did.

But we also have to paint the scene here: A 100 soldiers are raping a 14 or 13 year old girl. I'm to even talking about the psychological pain, but the physical pain she was in must have been unimaginable. It is almost unbelievable that she did survive. Not even a sex- worker would agree to such an arrangement purely because of the physicality of it. So she was probably screaming and crying in pure agony, bleeding, having major injuries, begging for them to stop or at best at some point being completely lifeless and dead inside as a corpse (but this is also a terrifying and disturbing look that should evoke empathy)

All of this Tyrion is witnessing and I could understand, that he would go insane from having to watch this. I just can't understand how your natural instinct- no matter, who that person is- wouldn't be to at least try to do anything you possibly could to make it stop and to help her. 

But okay, maybe he was so afraid for himself- I dunno. But then his father ordered him to rape her as well after he watched all of this horrific torture and he did it without resisting.

It is just something that I don't understand, how are you not laying on the floor puking after witnessing this? But again, okay, ppl are different. I would even understand, if he would have raped her in the end, but that he didn't even try to fight back, that he didn't even try to resist, didn't even try to find out, what would happen to himself, if he did- I just don't have any empathy for that. And I just don't understand how you could do such a thing, I would rather die than causing someone, who had been brutalized like that in front of my eyes even more pain and torment and he didn't even try. 

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"and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid."

And that he "blames" his erection for his actions makes it even more despicable to me. Yes, weird that he had an erection, but it should be irrelevant (bodies are weird- no judgement), it doesn't mean you have to abandon all empathy and rape someone.

And about Shae: He did already put her into a horrible situation, when he hired her and brought her to KL. Funny, that he demands loyalty from her, while he was endangering her life without telling her. Somehow he left that out of the job description. Shae was a dead woman from the start, if Tyrion wouldn't have killed her Tywin would have. Just another example of how the smallfolk is just nothing for nobles and they do with them whatever they wish.

Edit: I changed my opinion of that. Wall Flower has and excellent way of putting things in #196 my answer in #200

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

All of this Tyrion is witnessing and I could understand, that he would go insane from having to watch this. I just can't understand how your natural instinct- no matter, who that person is- wouldn't be to at least try to do anything you possibly could to make it stop and to help her.

Right. This whole scenario is an enigma to me. Even believing she was a paid whore his feelings couldn't have just "turned off", if he loved her ever, he still loved her then. I think his personal instincts got skewed along the way & while it is his fault for not changing them, I think we can all understand how they got screwed up to begin with. 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But okay, maybe he was so afraid for himself- I dunno. But then his father ordered him to rape her as well after he watched all of this horrific torture and he did it without resisting.

Yeah, it's all speculation really but I always thought Tyrion's fear of his father was more on a psychological level than a physical level. Not to say Tyrion wasn't afraid his father would physically harm him, he definitely would. I picture this more of like Tyrion thinking: "My father & sister are right, they have always been right. I'm an idiot to have thought this woman loved me. No one could love me... " & that line of thinking & self-loathing allowed him to go through with what Tywin told him to do with Tysha. 

In all fairness though we don't know if he did it without resisting. We don't get the whole story verbatim. He may have resisted & cursed & yelled & screamed the entire time they were raping her. 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It is just something that I don't understand, how are you not laying on the floor puking after witnessing this? But again, okay, ppl are different. I would even understand, if he would have raped her in the end, but that he didn't even try to fight back, that he didn't even try to resist, didn't even try to find out, what would happen to himself, if he did- I just don't have any empathy for that. And I just don't understand how you could do such a thing, I would rather die than causing someone, who had been brutalized like that in front of my eyes even more pain and torment and he didn't even try. 

I agree 100%. I do think it's hard to say what you would do in a given situation without actually being put in that situation but I personally think they would have had to tie me down or kill me. We don't really know though. It may come out later that Tyrion did attempt to stop it, that he did try. Maybe not though. Sometimes people are put in situations where they have been mistreated for so long that they are just happy the mistreatment isn't being directed at them & cannot think beyond that. They cannot give what they do not have. If someone is beaten down to the point of not being capable of regular emotions they have no empathy to give. I don't think this was the case with Tyrion - not to this extent anyway but I do think his upbringing played a role. As an adult he does defy his father when he thinks he can get away with it but he was younger then, knew he wasn't going to get away with defying him because he was present, & may have had more fear of him. 

Another thing that played a role here IMO is Tyrion's want to get his father's approval. He probably feels embarrassed & shameful for having been "tricked" into marrying a whore & believing she loved him. His father is likely mocking him for that. Part of doing what Tywin says is his attempt to redeem himself for bringing shame to House Lannister. 

I hope I don't come across as trying to defend his actions because I agree 100% they are absolutely wrong, no matter what. I just find it interesting to delve into the why & how of the matter - not in an effort to find an excuse, just in an effort to understand it better. 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And that he "blames" his erection for his actions makes it even more despicable to me. Yes, weird that he had an erection, but it should be irrelevant (bodies are weird- no judgement), it doesn't mean you have to abandon all empathy and rape someone.

Right, this always sounded weird to me. I understand that maybe he couldn't control having an erection but his erection also did not march him over to Tysha & make him penetrate her. He could have stood across the room with an erection & no harm is done. (Maybe he couldn't have, maybe they forced him or were going to force him but either way the reason he couldn't stay away from Tysha had nothing to do with the erection) 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And about Shae: He did already put her into a horrible situation, when he hired her and brought her to KL. Funny, that he demands loyalty from her, while he was endangering her life without telling her. Somehow he left that out of the job description. Shae was a dead woman from the start, if Tyrion wouldn't have killed her Tywin would have. Just another example of how the smallfolk is just nothing for nobles and they do with them whatever they wish.

He did but she wanted to come. She begged to come. He didn't force her to come. I think Tyrion had feelings for her & even though he tried to tell him self her feelings were feigned a part of him wanted to believe they were not & Shae did a great job at convincing him of that. IIRC he did tell her her life would be in danger when she came to KL which is why he wanted to send her away. She refused. I could be wrong, I'll have to reread those passages to be sure. 

It's two sides of the same coin. Like, it depends on whose story you are telling right? Shae's story could be the story she told when testifying against Tyrion. Tyrion's story would be more of:

I hired a prostitute & developed feelings for her. She led me to believe she developed feelings for me as well. I tried to send her away but she begged to stay with me. After being accused of a crime I didn't commit, said prostitute testified against me, lying to make me look bad. Upon escaping from my wrongful imprisonment I found said prostitute in bed with my father - the same man who tricked me into believing a woman that really loved me was a whore & who had repeatedly condemned me for my use of prostitutes. 

It's a sympathetic story when told from his point of view. Not that I think it's ever ok to kill someone, other than in self defense, but given his story I can see where he is coming from. I understand how he got to the point he did. I understand why he wanted to, if not kill, see the demise of them both. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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Ahhh, I have a lot of really strong feelings about all of this. So we must first agree to disagree.:cheers: LOL Please don't take anything personal, if I might sound a bit harsh or whatever I'm angry at the situation or Tyrion and don't mean to be impolite to you. But I'll try to contain myself and explain my opinions as best as i can :) 

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Right. This whole scenario is an enigma to me. Even believing she was a paid whore his feelings couldn't have just "turned off", if he loved her ever, he still loved her then. 

Right. He must have still loved her and he also didn't even talk to her, to hear what she would have had to say about this accusation.(Tywin obviously didn't allow it) But okay he thought he was unloveable. Still if you loved someone so much, how could you immediately turn against them, if you felt like she was the only good person in your life.

My problem however is that even, if he thought she was a paid sex worker, she could not have behaved like one. She must have cried and begged, she must have bled from so many men abusing her. It must have been very obvious, that she didn't want it. And really who would want that? A 100 soldiers? Not even a sex worker would consent to such a scenario, because it is basically life threatening.

And IMO it shouldn't have to even matter, if he loved her or not. Seeing something so violent and horrible should make you feel horrified and evoke your empathy in you, whoever it is. 

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I think his personal instincts got skewed along the way & while it is his fault for not changing them, I think we can all understand how they got screwed up to begin with.

I could believe that, if Tywin had made him watch scenarios like that again and again. Then I would understand, that after some time he might have turned numb and desensitized to it. But within just one night? That would be way to quickly.

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I picture this more of like Tyrion thinking: "My father & sister are right, they have always been right. I'm an idiot to have thought this woman loved me. No one could love me... " & that line of thinking & self-loathing allowed him to go through with what Tywin told him to do with Tysha.

I still don't understand, that just because you think someone tricked you and lied to you, that you then wouldn't try to resist raping them. Why would you (Tyrion) think this is accurate "punishment"? Even if he thought she was just a prostitute, couldn't he have just been hurt and angry like every normal person, but still try to stop a violent gang-rape and try to resist having to participate, just out of empathy for the victim, a victim, that he beforehand held in his arms and told her he loved her (not that it should matter, who she is IMO) Couldn't he just have tried to resist, because he has a heart for "broken things" like he always claims?

I understand, that he is hurt, but this hurt is just unproportional to the crime that is committed. A lot of people have been abused in their childhood and have been used and tricked or even abused by a partner and still would try to resist having to do something so horrible.

Nobody is entitled to love and sometimes you meet horrible ppl, who aren't good to you. That doesn't mean, that you can just shoot them or something like that and the majority of ppl, who have been in abusive relationships or tricked or rejected, don't respond that way. You are still always responsible for your own actions.

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In all fairness though we don't know if he did it without resisting. We don't get the whole story verbatim. He may have resisted & cursed & yelled & screamed the entire time they were raping her. 

I'm just talking about him not resisting, because of this quote:

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"and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid."

otherwise, I wouldn't have just assumed that.

I'll respond to the rest later :) 

Edit: I changed my opinion. Wall Flower has and excellent way of putting things in #196 my answer in #200

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Genna was spot on, Tyrion is Tywin’s son through and through. 

100% agree and it makes her afraid  LOL

Quote

Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.” “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.” That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?” “Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.”

Maybe that's why Tywin hated Tyrion extra much (I know you can't say it like that- dunno rn how to), because it's of all people his dwarf son, who is most like him or at least has the most potential to be like him/become likes him and he despises the thought of it, but deep down he also knows it's true. That's why he was so offended 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ahhh, I have a lot of really strong feelings about all of this. So we must first agree to disagree.:cheers: LOL Please don't take anything personal, if I might sound a bit harsh or whatever I'm angry at the situation or Tyrion and don't mean to be impolite to you. But I'll try to contain myself and explain my opinions as best as i can :) 

Absolutely! No hard feelings here, ever. I think I will mostly agree with you anyway but even if I don't we most certainly can disagree civilly :)

44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Right. He must have still loved her and he also didn't even talk to her, to hear what she would have had to say about this accusation.(Tywin obviously didn't allow it) But okay he thought he was unloveable. Still if you loved someone so much, how could you immediately turn against them, if you felt like she was the only good person in your life.

I agree, that's why it's an enigma to me. I cannot comprehend why or how he could bear to watch & take part in this - Even if he was physically forced (I know he wasn't) But even if he had no control over his own actions & none of it was his doings wouldn't you still feel completely & utterly disgusted by the whole situation? Wouldn't you still feel guilt? Wouldn't it still ruin you? I think it would me. 

46 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

My problem however is that even, if he thought she was a paid sex worker, she could not have behaved like one. She must have cried and begged, she must have bled from so many men abusing her. It must have been very obvious, that she didn't want it. And really who would want that? A 100 soldiers? Not even a sex worker would consent to such a scenario, because it is basically life threatening.

Oh, definitely. I'm actually thankful we don't get the scene verbatim because it would be very hard to read. I cannot imagine the pain & discomfort she was feeling. Even if she were indeed a sex worker who had lied to Tyrion she still doesn't deserve this. 

I think it is a little telling that the 100 soldiers obeyed also. Like you said, it wouldn't have been the most enjoyable for them either. Surely, some of them (optimistically most of them) didn't want to rape this woman to begin with let alone after she was in so much distress. They still did though. Granted, they have less ability to disobey Tywin than Tyrion does. 

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And IMO it shouldn't have to even matter, if he loved her or not. Seeing something so violent and horrible should make you feel horrified and evoke your empathy in you, whoever it is. 

Yeah, I think in any semi-normal person it would. 

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I could believe that, if Tywin had made him watch scenarios like that again and again. Then I would understand, that after some time he might have turned numb and desensitized to it. But within just one night? That would be way to quickly.

Right, I didn't mean that this particular scenario skewed his personal instincts, I meant his entire upbringing would have skewed his personal instincts. He wouldn't have witnessed this over & over but he has likely witnessed his fair share of trauma, which would desensitize him to trauma in general. Also the fact that Tywin thinks there is nothing more important than the reputation of House Lannister - this has probably been in grained into Tyrion since he was born. So while a normal persons personal instincts would lead them to try to or want to help this woman being abused, Tyrion's personal instincts were more likely to preserve his families reputation. At least the stronger instinct would probably be to his House. 

It still isn't the right thing or even an attempt at an excuse. Just a thought as to why maybe his personal instincts weren't to save Tysha. 

53 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I still don't understand, that just because you think someone tricked you and lied to you, that you then wouldn't try to resist raping them. Why would you (Tyrion) think this is accurate "punishment"? Even if he thought she was just a prostitute, couldn't he have just been hurt and angry like every normal person, but still try to stop a violent gang-rape and try to resist having to participate, just out of empathy for the victim, a victim, that he beforehand held in his arms and told her he loved her (not that it should matter, who she is IMO) Couldn't he just have tried to resist, because he has a heart for "broken things" like he always claims?

I meant more along the lines of that Tyrion, in his self-loathing, felt like it was an appropriate punishment for himself not necessarily Tysha. He should have tried & he should have acted normal but I don't know if he could have. His psyche is not the same as mine & yours. I'm really just spit-balling here but I think one of the reasons Tyrion followed through with this is because in that moment he has convinced himself that he is unlovable & he hates himself for it. 

56 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I understand, that he is hurt, but this hurt is just unproportional to the crime that is committed. A lot of people have been abused in their childhood and have been used and tricked or even abused by a partner and still would try to resist having to do something so horrible.

I agree 100%. I think most people that have been abused in their childhood would still try to resist having to do something so horrible. I don't know why Tyrion doesn't. I think it's either that he is just a bad person (something I don't wholly agree with as a premise) or his particular upbringing coupled with his particular personality led to this particular outcome - more likely IMO. That's not to say he couldn't have possibly changed this somehow. He does have the ability to understand right from wrong & is intelligent. There is no reason to believe he didn't understand how wrong this was - he had to. It definitely isn't a case of "anyone in this position would do the same". 

59 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm just talking about him not resisting, because of this quote:

I gotcha. To me this quote doesn't negate any chances of resisting though. I think this is just saying that he should have defied him & not raped Tysha but he didn't. That isn't the same as saying he didn't try to resist in some manner or another. He may not have or he might have. I'm just suggesting it's a possibility. 

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9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe that's why Tywin hated Tyrion extra much (I know you can't say it like that- dunno rn how to), because it's of all people his dwarf son, who is most like him or at least has the most potential to be like him/become likes him and he despises the thought of it, but deep down he also knows it's true. That's why he was so offended 

I love this! You are adorable. If you ask my daughter you can say it like that LOL She is a teenager & sometimes I think they come up with their own grammar rules. At any rate we know what you mean :) 

As to the post I agree it might be why he hates Tyrion so much. Not only is he a dwarf but he also is the most like his father. 

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12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

100% agree and it makes her afraid  LOL

Maybe that's why Tywin hated Tyrion extra much (I know you can't say it like that- dunno rn how to), because it's of all people his dwarf son, who is most like him or at least has the most potential to be like him/become likes him and he despises the thought of it, but deep down he also knows it's true. That's why he was so offended 

Yup. I hate Tywin btw. He’s the character I dislike the most, hands down. And yeah. I think Tywin knew that Tyrion was more like him than Jaime and Cersei, and he absolutely loathed the thought. The one that really takes after him is the misshapen dwarf, not the beautiful golden lion. Love it! “Suck it up, Tywin!”

And I will love it even more if we eventually learn Jaime and Cersei aren’t even his. :lol:

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I thought GRRMs response about any regrets he has in the writing was interesting. Tyrion was brought up. So he likes him, wants to write about his "pain" but wonders if he made him too much of a dick? Someone check me on this because I may be reading too much into it.

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I thought GRRMs response about any regrets he has in the writing was interesting. Tyrion was brought up. So he likes him, wants to write about his "pain" but wonders if he made him too much of a dick? Someone check me on this because I may be reading too much into it.

The thing with SSM for me personally is, what we "get" in the end is just heavily influenced by who heard  and reported it. Of course I think all fans want to report as accurately as possible, but GRRM tends to be ambiguous in his answers. IMO you would almost always need a couple of follow up questions to completely understand, what he is talking about, but of course he won't give that to you, because ultimately he doesn't want to influence readers opinion to much. I think his goal is to create as realistic characters as possible and than let the readers decide for themselves. 

Just think about the interview, in which GRRM talks about Sansa and the Hound. It is used by Sandor&Sansa shipper and Sandor&Sansa dislikers/haters alike to argue their point.

I have used GRRM's statements before in my argument about Jaime and Bran(mainly because he expressed exactly my opinion and therefore did the work for me), but in general IMO the books should be "enough".

But than I also understand, when ppl want to "use" his statements for interpretation. But IMO he speaks loudest in his books, while for me his interview answers can be ambiguous and it is even worse when it comes to SSM (I'm definitely still very grateful to everyone, who reports)

When it comes to Tyrion, he has always stated he is a villain. So IMO that is quite telling. I still think you can really like and empathize with a villain, even though they have done a lot of awful things.

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5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The thing with SSM for me personally is, what we "get" in the end is just heavily influenced by who heard  and reported it. Of course I think all fans want to report as accurately as possible, but GRRM tends to be ambiguous in his answers. IMO you would almost always need a couple of follow up questions to completely understand, what he is talking about, but of course he won't give that to you, because ultimately he doesn't want to influence readers opinion to much. I think his goal is to create as realistic characters as possible and than let the readers decide for themselves. 

Just think about the interview, in which GRRM talks about Sansa and the Hound. It is used by Sandor&Sansa shipper and Sandor&Sansa dislikers/haters alike to argue their point.

I have used GRRM's statements before in my argument about Jaime and Bran(mainly because he expressed exactly my opinion and therefore did the work for me), but in general IMO the books should be "enough".

But than I also understand, when ppl want to "use" his statements for interpretation. But IMO he speaks loudest in his books, while for me his interview answers can be ambiguous and it is even worse when it comes to SSM (I'm definitely still very grateful to everyone, who reports)

When it comes to Tyrion, he has always stated he is a villain. So IMO that is quite telling. I still think you can really like and empathize with a villain, even though they have done a lot of awful things.

I think Tyrion is one of the worst written characters, because I can see author at work in every turn of phrase. The author is supposed to disappear, but he doesnt. I also feel like the author is trying too hard to push his very specific brand of politics, the "bad men can be good rulers" thing with this character, and failing. He may have called Tyrion a villain, but I wouldnt be surprised if the story is rigged in Tyrion's favor to offer him a redemption arc. His chapters take me out of the world, completely. 

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Shae has committed a betrayal, even if she's just a whore and doesn't owe loyalty to Tyrion and he obviously shouldn't trust her, she plotted something that could have caused Tyrion's death, each action has its reaction, Shae tried to bite Tyrion's leg and failed so Tyrion bit her leg, I don't think Tyrion killing her is very different from executing a fugitive from the wall or a traitor.

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23 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Shae has committed a betrayal, even if she's just a whore and doesn't owe loyalty to Tyrion and he obviously shouldn't trust her, she plotted something that could have caused Tyrion's death, each action has its reaction, Shae tried to bite Tyrion's leg and failed so Tyrion bit her leg, I don't think Tyrion killing her is very different from executing a fugitive from the wall or a traitor.

There’s so much I viscerally disagree here that I don’t even know where to start. So I will ask before I fly off the handle... What exactly do you mean by Shae is “just a whore”?

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Tyrion and he obviously shouldn't trust her

there you go. Tyrion never forgot she was a sex worker btw. he told himself over and over again.

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Shae has committed a betrayal, even if she's just a whore

You contradict yourself in your own sentence. She can't be JUST a prostitute AND betray him.

Betrayal= the act of not being loyal when other people believe you are loyal

Tyrion did never forget she was a prostitute therefore, knew she wouldn't be loyal. Tyrion didn't make her his gf, didn't make her his courtesan, never made her any significant promises, even told her she was just his whore, never told her he loved her and neither did she.

She gave him her body, he gave her money. It was an honest transaction. Sometimes I get the feeling people think Shae did sleep for fun with Tyrion- she didn't!

Also she was questioned by Cersei and Tywin and we all know they get what they want. But yeah, of course, Shae should risk her life for a man she owes absolutely nothing to!

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plotted something that could have caused Tyrion's death

I think you mean Cersei. 

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I don't think Tyrion killing her is very different from executing a fugitive from the wall or a traitor.

Yeah, so what oath exactly has Shae sworn to Tyrion please?  

 

But maybe he could have been so nice and mention, that his Daddy would kill her, if he ever found out about her. So I guess you could say, that he betrayed her. But then he didn't owe her any loyalty either so no. It was just very care- and heartless of him. And ultimately shows, that he did care more for sex, than for her life, that he was willing to risk it.

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