Does Asoiaf Have a True Protagonist? *SPOILERS*

[TedBear]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s so much I viscerally disagree here that I don’t even know where to start. So I will ask before I fly off the handle... What exactly do you mean by Shae is “just a whore”?

That she was not interested in Tyrion but in money, she would go to the side of the wall that paid more, was not committed to him, that she was not trustworthy.

[Nagini's Neville]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s so much I viscerally disagree here that I don’t even know where to start. So I will ask before I fly off the handle... What exactly do you mean by Shae is “just a whore”?

I think TB means, that she didn't love him. but somehow also thinks Shae still owed him loyalty. If I understood correctly 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I love this! You are adorable. If you ask my daughter you can say it like that LOL She is a teenager & sometimes I think they come up with their own grammar rules. At any rate we know what you mean  

As to the post I agree it might be why he hates Tyrion so much. Not only is he a dwarf but he also is the most like his father. 

haha I'm relieved. And happy your daughter wouldn't object  It's a big goal of mine to be accepted by teenagers  LOL

I guess that's my problem though- I only know youtube english. But you Americans are always super generous and tolerant, when it comes to english mistakes, that definitely sets you apart from other countries and is nice so you don't feel to afraid to make mistakes  

How would you say it correctly though?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

 

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

haha I'm relieved. And happy your daughter wouldn't object  It's a big goal of mine to be accepted by teenagers  LOL

I guess that's my problem though- I only know youtube english. But you Americans are always super generous and tolerant, when it comes to english mistakes, that definitely sets you apart from other countries and is nice so you don't feel to afraid to make mistakes  

How would you say it correctly though?

I'm glad to hear Americans are nice about it!

You could say "Tywin hated Tyrion so much" or if you wanted to emphasize that he hated him more than he hated others or hated him an extra amount you could say "Tywin hated Tyrion most of all" or "Tywin hated Tyrion more than anyone else"

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But you Americans are always super generous and tolerant, when it comes  to english mistakes , that definitely sets you apart from other countries and is nice so you don't feel to afraid to make mistakes  

and it's nice!!!! !

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

and it's nice!!!! !

*retreats slowly back into her snail shell*

[Nagini's Neville]

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

I'm glad to hear Americans are nice about it!

You could say "Tywin hated Tyrion so much" or if you wanted to emphasize that he hated him more than he hated others or hated him an extra amount you could say "Tywin hated Tyrion most of all" or "Tywin hated Tyrion more than anyone else"

they are  Hugor must not be American then.

Hm, I still think "extra much" expresses the best way, what I mean LOL

What I meant was he hates Tyrion from the get go of course, just because he is a dwarf. But that he can see himself in him, makes him hate Tyrion a significant amount more. It is like Tywin is staring back at himself in dwarf form. 

He obviously would have preferred to see himself in the tall, beautiful, strong Jaime.

It just occurred to me, that Tywin might have been afraid of Tyrion. And in the end he was right to be.

I must still respond to all your great points about Tyrion. It's such a delicate subject, it's not so easy to gather my thoughts about it. Or maybe just the english sentences haha

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, TedBear said:

That she was not interested in Tyrion but in money, she would go to the side of the wall that paid more, was not committed to him, that she was not trustworthy.

Right. I’ll start by saying you could have phrased that... differently. But the main point is, she never hid who and what she was. So, Tyrion had no right to expect undying loyalty from Shae. But let’s look at it another way, for argument’s sake. Let’s say Shae had vowed to love Tyrion unconditionally, for all eternity and beyond. And that at some point, Tyrion finds her in bed w/ Daddy Dearest, and learns she lied to him, used him, manipulated him, and had been sleeping around w/ many men, not just Tywin. Tyrion still has no right to kill her. None whatsoever. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

they are  Hugor must not be American then

What say you @Hugorfonics? Be ye American?

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, I still think "extra much" expresses the best way, what I mean LOL

Haha! I agree! 

It's a good phrase & I personally think it should be used whenever necessary. 

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What I meant was he hates Tyrion from the get go of course, just because he is a dwarf. But that he can see himself in him, makes him hate Tyrion a significant amount more. It is like Tywin is staring back at himself in dwarf form. 

He obviously would have preferred to see himself in the tall, beautiful, strong Jaime.

I agree. 

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It just occurred to me, that Tywin might have been afraid of Tyrion. And in the end he was right to be

Yeah, I never thought about that either but it's probably true. 

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

must still respond to all your great points about Tyrion. It's such a delicate subject, it's not so easy to gather my thoughts about it. Or maybe just the english sentences haha

Take your time

You do great with English & articulate well. I never questioned it being your native tongue until you told me. 

At the end of the day it's all about communication & expressing ourselves to one another. If you need to say "extra much" to get your point across then you should! If someone doesn't get it, they can ask. 

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Right. I’ll start by saying you could have phrased that... differently. But the main point is, she never hid who and what she was. So, Tyrion had no right to expect undying loyalty from Shae. But let’s look at it another way, for argument’s sake. Let’s say Shae had vowed to love Tyrion unconditionally, for all eternity and beyond. And that at some point, Tyrion finds her in bed w/ Daddy Dearest, and learns she lied to him, used him, manipulated him, and had been sleeping around w/ many men, not just Tywin. Tyrion still has no right to kill her. None whatsoever. 

Especially because her death changed nothing for him. He didn't have any gain from it at all.

[Hugorfonics]

45 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

*retreats slowly back into her snail shell*

 lol

33 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

they are  Hugor must not be American then.

 I thought I was being super generous and tolerant 

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What say you @Hugorfonics? Be ye American?

I be

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

At the end of the day it's all about communication & expressing ourselves to one another. If you need to say "extra much" to get your point across then you should! If someone doesn't get it, they can ask. 

I agree

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's a good phrase & I personally think it should be used whenever necessary. 

Eh, I disagree. Ideally we should speak proper (coming from the guy who uses mad slang) but in informal times like now it certainly doesnt matter

42 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, I still think "extra much" expresses the best way, what I mean LOL

There's always another word. Intensely? Passionately? Hysterically? 

Google can be handy for a thesaurus. (Though you shouldnt feel pressure from internet folks to go hard)

 

47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What I meant was he hates Tyrion from the get go of course, just because he is a dwarf. 

I don't think Tywin truly cared about that. I think he hated being laughed at while Tyrion enjoys making people laugh, which Tywin just doesn't understand. I think Tywins true hatred for Tyrion was the death of Joanna

[TedBear]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Betrayal= the act of not being loyal when other people believe you are loyal

Tyrion did never forget she was a prostitute therefore, knew she wouldn't be loyal. Tyrion didn't make her his gf, didn't make her his courtesan, never made her any significant promises, even told her she was just his whore, never told her he loved her and neither did she.

She gave him her body, he gave her money. It was an honest transaction. Sometimes I get the feeling people think Shae did sleep for fun with Tyrion- she didn't!

He trusted her to some extent, he certainly wouldn't keep her there while her father was there if he didn't trust her at least a little, there's no way you can relate to a person who is completely unreliable to you..Dany says all the time that she doesn't trust Daario or shouldn't, but she does trust him enough to sleep with him shortly before getting married, and send him hostage, intimacy goes hand in hand with trust even when we don't want to.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think you mean Cersei. 

So if I pay you to help me kill my mother in law, shouldn't you be arrested because you wrapped her body in the rug?

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, so what oath exactly has Shae sworn to Tyrion please?  

But maybe he could have been so nice and mention, that his Daddy would kill her, if he ever found out about her. So I guess you could say, that he betrayed her. But then he didn't owe her any loyalty either so no. It was just very care- and heartless of him. And ultimately shows, that he did care more for sex, than for her life, that he was willing to risk it.

For me it's pretty simple, that person tried to kill me (or helped another, however you want), so I'll kill her, i see it as betrayal, she was with his father and his sister, plotting against him for money, Shae wouldn't need to get a Tyrion card saying "You promise not to betray me/help someone to plot my death", I am not saying that he was justified, but that she was not justified either, so I really didn't have much trouble with this death, Tyrion has done things much darker and dirtier than that.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I be

I knew it! I can always tell, who is American! despite of your intolerance  and your demand for proper speech

Quote

Intensely? Passionately? Hysterically?

you obviously don't know what "extra much" means.

In my head Tywin recognized Tyrion's immense intelligence as he got older and it frightened him. Basically Frankenstein's monster. Or of course he might just hate funny people.

 

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I knew it! I can always tell, who is American! despite of your intolerance  and your demand for proper speech

lol what are the signs?

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

you obviously don't know what "extra much" means.

Oh no! I just attempted to use it in another thread

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

In my head Tywin recognized Tyrion's immense intelligence as he got older and it frightened him. Basically Frankenstein's monster. Or of course he might just hate funny people.

Completely agree. (Though I think Joanna started the hatred he had for Tyrion and then it manifested from there)

Quote

. . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, TedBear said:

He trusted her to some extent, he certainly wouldn't keep her there while her father was there if he didn't trust her at least a little, there's no way you can relate to a person who is completely unreliable to you..Dany says all the time that she doesn't trust Daario or shouldn't, but she does trust him enough to sleep with him shortly before getting married, and send him hostage, intimacy goes hand in hand with trust even when we don't want to.

This is just your opinion. But sex is a very individual thing for different people. And we shouldn't police or judge people, just because sex is different for them, than what we experience.

Nothing can destroy intimacy and trust more than paying for someone's body. You become merely an object. And what makes you think Shae did enjoy or want any of this? She did it for them money and nothing more. When most people wouldn't want to sleep with Tyrion Shae probably didn't want to as well. 

You also have to keep in mind that sex is very likely not the same thing for Shae, than it is for people with a healthy sexual history. Years she was raped by her father. That would destroy anyone's healthy relationship to sex. Afterwards men did pay for her body and I don't even want to know all the horrible things, that already have happened to her during her work as a prostitute. Did her father show her healthy love and intimacy while he raped her? Did the men, who payed for her like an object showed her love, intimacy and raised her self-worth? Likely not. And if all that doesn't convince you, just look at her reaction to what happened to Lollys. "She just got fucked" There you see how much sex has to do with intimacy and trust for Shae- absolutely nothing. She is completely desensitized to sexual violence.

Shae probably never trusted a single man she had sex with, starting with her father. 

 

 

 

[Wall Flower]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ahhh, I have a lot of really strong feelings about all of this. So we must first agree to disagree. LOL Please don't take anything personal, if I might sound a bit harsh or whatever I'm angry at the situation or Tyrion and don't mean to be impolite to you. But I'll try to contain myself and explain my opinions as best as i can  

Right. He must have still loved her and he also didn't even talk to her, to hear what she would have had to say about this accusation.(Tywin obviously didn't allow it) But okay he thought he was unloveable. Still if you loved someone so much, how could you immediately turn against them, if you felt like she was the only good person in your life.

My problem however is that even, if he thought she was a paid sex worker, she could not have behaved like one. She must have cried and begged, she must have bled from so many men abusing her. It must have been very obvious, that she didn't want it. And really who would want that? A 100 soldiers? Not even a sex worker would consent to such a scenario, because it is basically life threatening.

And IMO it shouldn't have to even matter, if he loved her or not. Seeing something so violent and horrible should make you feel horrified and evoke your empathy in you, whoever it is. 

I could believe that, if Tywin had made him watch scenarios like that again and again. Then I would understand, that after some time he might have turned numb and desensitized to it. But within just one night? That would be way to quickly.

I still don't understand, that just because you think someone tricked you and lied to you, that you then wouldn't try to resist raping them. Why would you (Tyrion) think this is accurate "punishment"? Even if he thought she was just a prostitute, couldn't he have just been hurt and angry like every normal person, but still try to stop a violent gang-rape and try to resist having to participate, just out of empathy for the victim, a victim, that he beforehand held in his arms and told her he loved her (not that it should matter, who she is IMO) Couldn't he just have tried to resist, because he has a heart for "broken things" like he always claims?

I understand, that he is hurt, but this hurt is just unproportional to the crime that is committed. A lot of people have been abused in their childhood and have been used and tricked or even abused by a partner and still would try to resist having to do something so horrible.

Nobody is entitled to love and sometimes you meet horrible ppl, who aren't good to you. That doesn't mean, that you can just shoot them or something like that and the majority of ppl, who have been in abusive relationships or tricked or rejected, don't respond that way. You are still always responsible for your own actions.

I'm just talking about him not resisting, because of this quote:

otherwise, I wouldn't have just assumed that.

I'll respond to the rest later  

I absolutely agree that the murder of Shae and the rape of the slave prostitute in Essos are  unforgivably bad acts by Tyrion. However, I profoundly disagree with you and other posters about Tyrion's part in Tysha's rape. Both Tyrion and Tysha were children. Tyrion was 13 and Tysha 14. What happened was sexual abuse of both of those children by Tywin who orchestrated and directed the event for maximum shock and with maximum brutality. 

I am not in any way an expert on this issue but I think if child sexual abuse scandals have shown anything it is that children and teenagers can and do participate in sex acts and pornography but that doesn't make them complicit in or guilty of their own abuse. The very fact that their bodies betray them can be one of the things that the perpetrator uses against them and one of the things that shames them into silence.

I think it is completely naive to say 'I would totally have fought, refused, resisted' because I don't think any of us have the slightest clue what we would have done at 13 in those particular circumstances. I think it's a little uncomfortably like asking raped women why they didn't fight back, why they did what the rapist told them to, whether they had a sexual response, etc.

I hope I haven't offended anyone but I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Tywin is the real perpetrator here.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

lol what are the signs?

mostly the vocabulary and the abbreviations of words. But then there is this extra special something, that I just can't put my finger on LOL

Quote

Oh no! I just attempted to use it in another thread

Nobody will understand you

[Hugorfonics]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

mostly the vocabulary and the abbreviations of words.

Ok, cool

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But then there is this extra special something, that I just can't put my finger on LOL

Lol nice. Lmk when you figure it out

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Nobody will understand you

Story of my life

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

, I disagree. Ideally we should speak proper (coming from the guy who uses mad slang) but in informal times like now it certainly doesnt matter

I was being a little silly but I do enjoy the phrase. Yeah, in a formal setting we should speak properly but I like when someones personality shines through their words. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

don't think Tywin truly cared about that. I think he hated being laughed at while Tyrion enjoys making people laugh, which Tywin just doesn't understand. I think Tywins true hatred for Tyrion was the death of Joanna

Oh I think he dislikes him being a dwarf to begin with, then Tyrion likes to make people laugh on top of it. Plus he's like Tywin but yeah the bolded. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I absolutely agree that the murder of Shae and the rape of the slave prostitute in Essos are  unforgivably bad acts by Tyrion. However, I profoundly disagree with you and other posters about Tyrion's part in Tysha's rape. Both Tyrion and Tysha were children. Tyrion was 13 and Tysha 14. What happened was sexual abuse of both of those children by Tywin who orchestrated and directed the event for maximum shock and with maximum brutality. 

I am not in any way an expert on this issue but I think if child sexual abuse scandals have shown anything it is that children and teenagers can and do participate in sex acts and pornography but that doesn't make them complicit in or guilty of their own abuse. The very fact that their bodies betray them can be one of the things that the perpetrator uses against them and one of the things that shames them into silence.

I think it is completely naive to say 'I would totally have fought, refused, resisted' because I don't think any of us have the slightest clue what we would have done at 13 in those particular circumstances. I think it's a little uncomfortably like asking raped women why they didn't fight back, why they did what the rapist told them to, whether they had a sexual response, etc.

I hope I haven't offended anyone but I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Tywin is the real perpetrator here.

You know what. You've just opened my eyes. It suddenly all clicks into place for me. Thank you so much and thank you for stating you opinion in such a nice way. It's a very sensitive topic for me myself. And gotta be honest it leaves me quite emotional and confused. 

I had a hard time "categorizing" it. 

When I considered Tyrion's age I always ask myself, if I'd think differently about the situation, if a 13 year old kid would rape someone today and the answer was always no. But in my mind I always automatically pictured a peer pressure situation. Completely disregarding that that's not comparable to the power dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion and the years of abuse and neglect Tyrion had already endured. But I didn't do it on purpose.

Quote

"and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid."

I finally understand this sentence. His body betrayed him and it was used against him, but he doesn't understand it and blames himself.

This sentence always pissed me off so much, because to me it sounded like he was playing the victim, when in reality he was a victim.

He probably took his body's response as a sign, that he must want it and then was shamed, pressured into it. You are right, that children's physical responses are often used against them, when they are being sexually abused. I don't know why I couldn't put two and two together. 

Man, I'm liking Tyrion rn much better, it explains a lot about him.

I apologize for victim-shaming. I didn't mean to. I always had the feeling I didn't completely understand it, just couldn't put my finger on what it was.