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Ambrose H

Does Asoiaf Have a True Protagonist? *SPOILERS*

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

you obviously don't know what "extra much" means

Clearly he does not. 

ETA: I take it back. I think he does know what it means. He used it very nicely in another thread :)

1 hour ago, TedBear said:

For me it's pretty simple, that person tried to kill me (or helped another, however you want), so I'll kill her, i see it as betrayal, she was with his father and his sister, plotting against him for money, Shae wouldn't need to get a Tyrion card saying "You promise not to betray me/help someone to plot my death", I am not saying that he was justified, but that she was not justified either, so I really didn't have much trouble with this death, Tyrion has done things much darker and dirtier than that

I'm not overly sympathetic to Shae but it wasn't as black & white as she tried to kill him so he killed her. She was most likely put in a situation where she was given two options: testify against Tyrion or be killed or jailed. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh no! I just attempted to use it in another thread

:commie: it can be a new phrase! I like it. 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

absolutely agree that the murder of Shae and the rape of the slave prostitute in Essos are  unforgivably bad acts by Tyrion. However, I profoundly disagree with you and other posters about Tyrion's part in Tysha's rape. Both Tyrion and Tysha were children. Tyrion was 13 and Tysha 14. What happened was sexual abuse of both of those children by Tywin who orchestrated and directed the event for maximum shock and with maximum brutality. 

I can get behind this. Tyrion was abused as well. I think because he held more power in the situation (still very little but more than Tysha) he holds some of the blame. I admit though, I had forgotten how young he was & that makes a difference. 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

am not in any way an expert on this issue but I think if child sexual abuse scandals have shown anything it is that children and teenagers can and do participate in sex acts and pornography but that doesn't make them complicit in or guilty of their own abuse. The very fact that their bodies betray them can be one of the things that the perpetrator uses against them and one of the things that shames them into silence.

Absolutely. Not only that but when they don't fight, resist, etc but go along with it they feel shame about it, like they allowed it to happen, it was their fault etc. 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

think it is completely naive to say 'I would totally have fought, refused, resisted' because I don't think any of us have the slightest clue what we would have done at 13 in those particular circumstances. I think it's a little uncomfortably like asking raped women why they didn't fight back, why they did what the rapist told them to, whether they had a sexual response, etc.

For sure. It's hard to say for sure you would do anything with out being in that situation. I believe I, as an adult, would resist my father to the best of my ability. But 14 year old me? I would most likely have been focused on surviving & getting out of the situation with the least damage to myself as possible. 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

hope I haven't offended anyone but I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Tywin is the real perpetrator here.

Agreed & I don't think anything you have said is the slightest bit offensive. 

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@Lyanna<3Rhaegar okay, changed my mind on Tysha and Tyrion LOL WF has opened my eyes. Tbh that really changes a lot.

Under those circumstances I must revaluate his behavior new. I always asked myself, why does he treat women/girls he wants to sleep with so particularly shitty (Shae, Sansa, the slave girl)? they're also just broken things, like Bran and Jon are cripple and bastard.

But under those circumstances it makes a lot more sense, not to be excused, but I certainly see how this early experience with Tysha and his father had a major influence on him and probably also made himself feel like a predator from the get go.

I mean GRRM is really a.... *blows out air aggressively* haha Kind of relieved I have a better understanding of the situation now. It always felt so icky, I just couldn't fully understand it.

 

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13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar okay, changed my mind on Tysha and Tyrion LOL WF has opened my eyes. Tbh that really changes a lot.

Under those circumstances I must revaluate his behavior new. I always asked myself, why does he treat women/girls he wants to sleep with so particularly shitty (Shae, Sansa, the slave girl)? they're also just broken things, like Bran and Jon are cripple and bastard.

But under those circumstances it makes a lot more sense, not to be excused, but I certainly see how this early experience with Tysha and his father had a major influence on him and probably also made himself feel like a predator from the get go.

I mean GRRM is really a.... *blows out air aggressively* haha Kind of relieved I have a better understanding of the situation now. It always felt so icky, I just couldn't fully understand it.

 

Yeah for sure! I honestly forgot he was that young & it makes me feel a little better too :)

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:commie: it can be a new phrase! I like it. 

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ETA: I take it back. I think he does know what it means. He used it very nicely in another thread :)

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Oh no! I just attempted to use it in another thread

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It's a good phrase & I personally think it should be used whenever necessary.

How wise you are, sweet summer children!

First, of course, I must evaluate this said thread to explore, if "extra much" was used properly. It is a very sensitive phrase, that must not be taken liberties with! (in proper speech)

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I'm glad what I wrote made sense. It's a hard topic to try and tackle when it is so very sensitive and I don't have real personal experience or expertise.

One thing that really chills me is what Tysha's rape shows about Tywin's psychology. It's clear that he uses rape and/or sexual humiliation to punish women who offend him or House Lannister - I 100% believe that he had a good idea what would happen when he sent Gregor Clegane after Elia Martell. Like any good abuser, he also targets Tyrion, deliberately making Tyrion complicit in what happens to Tysha and getting Jaime to lie about Tysha being a whore so that Tyrion could be in no doubt that no-one could ever love such a monstrous dwarf. It's not an accident that all three of Tywin's children have messed up relationships to sex.

I don't think what happened excuses Tyrion's later actions but, if we ever get the remaining books, Tyrion will have a choice to make about whether he wants to truly be his father's son and live down to the role of monster that Tywin and Westerosi society tried to fit him into.

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1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I'm glad what I wrote made sense. It's a hard topic to try and tackle when it is so very sensitive and I don't have real personal experience or expertise.

yeah, it is something I actually already knew, just couldn't see in or apply to this situation for some reason. But something about how you phrased it made it clicked for me and helped me interpret this sentence about his body's betrayal so that I suddenly understood it. So thanks :) 

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One thing that really chills me is what Tysha's rape shows about Tywin's psychology. It's clear that he uses rape and/or sexual humiliation to punish women who offend him or House Lannister - I 100% believe that he had a good idea what would happen when he sent Gregor Clegane after Elia Martell. Like any good abuser, he also targets Tyrion, deliberately making Tyrion complicit in what happens to Tysha and getting Jaime to lie about Tysha being a whore so that Tyrion could be in no doubt that no-one could ever love such a monstrous dwarf. It's not an accident that all three of Tywin's children have messed up relationships to sex.

Oh yeah, he knows 100% what Gregor and his rats are doing and everybody else knows and he uses them as an instrument of terror. Which just is particularly horrific.

This whole situation and how Tywin abused all his three children is just so terrible. Just imagine what could have become of them, if they hadn't been abused like this. They are actually all so talented. They could have made an awesome and unstoppable team. But of course we never know. Cersei might have still been a bit sociopathic, but maybe not, who knows. with the right attention, love and care...

Somehow this suddenly makes me question, if something in this direction might have happened to C+J as well. Probably not even close to this extent, but maybe they witnessed something, that was connected to how Tywin uses sexual violence as punishment or maybe they could just feel, that he was doing that or somehow heard about it. There must be a reason for why they are "in love" with each other. Question remains of course, what made Tywin the way he is. 

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I don't think what happened excuses Tyrion's later actions but, if we ever get the remaining books, Tyrion will have a choice to make about whether he wants to truly be his father's son and live down to the role of monster that Tywin and Westerosi society tried to fit him into.

I really must revalue Tyrion anew now. Tbh I didn't really like him much anymore, before reading your post. And must go back now and think about his character and his behavior in this new light and if and how it changes things for me. 

But yes Tyrion's arc will be very interesting. Tbh almost everyone's arc will be very interesting to me :) So much unknown

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9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

dunno how I feel about, that my personality might now be associated with "extra much" :laugh:

Well since I enjoy your personality & "extra much" I agree! 

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Let’s say Shae had vowed to love Tyrion unconditionally, for all eternity and beyond. And that at some point, Tyrion finds her in bed w/ Daddy Dearest, and learns she lied to him, used him, manipulated him, and had been sleeping around w/ many men, not just Tywin. Tyrion still has no right to kill her. None whatsoever.

You forgot to mention that Shae helped with her lies to condemn Tyrion to death. She betrayed him. And I can also understand why Tyrion raped Tysha when Tywin commanded it; Tyrion was not only under pressure to obey his Father, he also believed that Tysha had lied to him. Things we do for love….

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13 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

You forgot to mention that Shae helped with her lies to condemn Tyrion to death. She betrayed him. And I can also understand why Tyrion raped Tysha when Tywin commanded it; Tyrion was not only under pressure to obey his Father, he also believed that Tysha had lied to him. Things we do for love….

So you meant he raped her for revenge and that would be okay? How would that be doing something for love? Wall Flower has a better explanation and has me convinced of it.

And you can't betray someone you don't owe loyalty to. Cersei and Tywin wanted her to testify since she was Sansa's handmaiden and what Cersei and Tywin want they get.

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Well, in my opinion, the true protagonist is someone who is in the center of happenings, so to speak, and yet hiding in plain sight. Someone who manages to escape danger at every turn through sheer luck. Someone who has royal blood. Someone who falls in love with a girl who is eventually shipped off to Essos.

Now, am I talking about Gendry or Tyrion? ;)

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So you meant he raped her for revenge and that would be okay? I said I can understand Tyrion's reaction/action, not that it would be ok.

How would that be doing something for love? Wall Flower has a better explanation and has me convinced of it.

And you can't betray someone you don't owe loyalty to. Cersei and Tywin wanted her to testify since she was Sansa's handmaiden and what Cersei and Tywin want they get. She told lies, as far as I remember. so she gave false testimony.

 

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13 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It is a very sensitive phrase, that must not be taken liberties with! (in proper speech)

Lmao

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

dunno how I feel about, that my personality might now be associated with "extra much" :laugh:

And I was told Germans have no sense of humor

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I like when someones personality shines through their words. 

Definitely

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Oh I think he dislikes him being a dwarf to begin with, 

Its weird to think that he doesnt care, because Tywins such a dick and almost every other character (except Jaime and Shae) makes such a big deal of it. However he hardly brings up Tyrions size, perhaps because hes too busy condemning everyother trait Tyrion has. Sarcastic, petty, a romantic who wants to be loved, etc.

I think if Jaime were to act a fool, Tywin would take just as much of an issue with his golden son acting silly as the Imp

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5 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

She told lies, as far as I remember. so she gave false testimony.

duh, she was Tywin and Cersei's witness. They believed he did kill Joffrey and wanted him to die for it. And again she doesn't owe Tyrion loyalty

 

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Gendry, it is known. My boy the bull gotta be the real Prince that was promised.

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On 1/14/2020 at 7:04 AM, SeanF said:

Mance Rayder was not Jon's to punish.  He is Stannis' prisoner, not Jon's.  Melisandre is Stannis' deputy at the Wall.   She is responsible to Stannis for how she treats him.  She is not responsible to anyone else.

You cannot have it both ways.  If Jon can send Mance on an errand, then he is under Jon's command and therefore his to judge.  It doesn't even matter what Stannis thinks.  Mance Rayder is a sworn man of the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's leadership.  So is Janos Slynt.  Jon had a duty to judge them fairly and without bias or favoritism.  Oh yes, Jon sent Mance to get Arya (who he thinks is Arya).  Jon even provided the cover and the accomplices when he sent for the women to go with Mance Rayder.  

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10 hours ago, Chariots of the Gods said:

You cannot have it both ways.  If Jon can send Mance on an errand, then he is under Jon's command and therefore his to judge.  It doesn't even matter what Stannis thinks.  Mance Rayder is a sworn man of the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's leadership.  So is Janos Slynt.  Jon had a duty to judge them fairly and without bias or favoritism.  Oh yes, Jon sent Mance to get Arya (who he thinks is Arya).  Jon even provided the cover and the accomplices when he sent for the women to go with Mance Rayder.  

Except Jon didn't send Mance anywhere. Melisandre did. It absolutely matters what Stannis thinks, because Mance is Stannis's prisoner. Mance requested some spearwives to go along for a 'ploy' he had in mind. We don't even know if the ploy had anything to do with fArya. 

 

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On 12/20/2018 at 1:23 PM, Ambrose H said:

Is there a true protagonist or hero in Asoiaf? I'm not sure there is, because GRRM does a great job at showing his characters as human (which is perhaps why his universe is so wildly popular), flaws and all.

Up until when he kills his father in ASoS, Tyrion was my favorite "good guy" who I was absolutely rooting for. I still like him as a character, and he's still probably my favorite character for now, but he definitely lost some respect from me when he shot his father and strangled Shae. I understand why it was necessary in his eyes, but I think it could have been avoided, and definitely took him out of the running for protagonist in my book.

Another "hero" I loved (and still do) was Robb. Sadly, as is well known by now, he met an untimely end at the hands of the Freys. When he was alive, though, he was the figurehead for the North to rally behind.

Perhaps the most heroic character, Jon Snow definitely appeared incorruptible, up until he broke his vows. Again, I understand his motivations, but still. . .

My running theory is that there is no true protagonist, to which the surplus of narrating characters surely contributes, but I'm interested to hear the community's thoughts on this matter

 

-Ambrose

The story has a true protagonists.  Several, actually.  The main protagonists, the top character, is Daenerys Targaryen.  There are others as well.  Lower on the ladder but nevertheless protagonists in their own right.  Barristan, Brienne, Drogon, Samwell, Tyrion.  

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