The Wiki-Timeline Project v2

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Off topic for this thread, so this question is not meant to start a discussion,  but I'm just curious where this is stated? All I recall is Cat giving Jon a "look" whenever he was better than Robb at something.

It's more of an implied "stink eye", lol. Catelyn suspected Ashara was Jon's mother and confronted Ned about it, and Maester Luwin told her "bastards grow up faster". The two things together imply that Catelyn saw an infant that looked older than Robb.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's more of an implied "stink eye", lol. Catelyn suspected Ashara was Jon's mother and confronted Ned about it, and Maester Luwin told her "bastards grow up faster". The two things together imply that Catelyn saw an infant that looked older than Robb.

Luwin told that to Jon, not Catelyn.

And Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she had married Ned, during the year they had spend apart. There is nothing in that quote or any other as far as I am aware saying that she believed Jon looked older.

Her "stink eye", imo, was annoyance about the fact that her husband's bastard child, fathered on a woman Ned  loved fiercely according to her thoughts, bested the trueborn son she had given birth to. At least that is what Jon is associating it with:

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Luwin told that to Jon, not Catelyn.

And Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she had married Ned, during the year they had spend apart. There is nothing in that quote or any other as far as I am aware saying that she believed Jon looked older.

Her "stink eye", imo, was annoyance about the fact that her husband's bastard child, fathered on a woman Ned  loved fiercely according to her thoughts, bested the trueborn son she had given birth to. At least that is what Jon is associating it with:

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

I beg your indulgence, because as you say this is off topic...but, if Catelyn believed Jon was fathered after she wed Ned, how could she have thought Ashara was even possible as the mother when it was said she had jumped off a tower? There wouldn't have been enough time for Ned to visit Starfall to father Jon, wait around nine months, and then still have Jon back at Winterfell before going back to Riverrun to fetch Catelyn. It's an impossible scenario for her to even consider.

I don't think Jon questioned why he always bested Robb. The three things likely go together: Jon would best Robb, Catelyn would give him the stink eye, and then Luwin would placate her with "bastards grow up faster".

[SFDanny]

31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I beg your indulgence, because as you say this is off topic...but, if Catelyn believed Jon was fathered after she wed Ned, how could she have thought Ashara was even possible as the mother when it was said she had jumped off a tower? There wouldn't have been enough time for Ned to visit Starfall to father Jon, wait around nine months, and then still have Jon back at Winterfell before going back to Riverrun to fetch Catelyn. It's an impossible scenario for her to even consider.

Which is why Martin reminds us that the Lady Ashara was not "nailed to the floor in Dorne." It is very clear in the books that Cat does in fact believe Jon is conceived after she wed Ned in a chance encounter with someone who fulfilled his "man's needs." This variant only presumes that woman was Ashara, rather than a peasant girl, a tavern wench, a fisherman's daughter, or perhaps a wet-nurse named Wylla. Given the tiny bit of information we are given of Ashara's whereabouts, this is not a crazy theory, but is without much support at this point. End of off topic posts. Sorry, RT!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Since the release of Fire & Blood the project had grown a lot more! It is good to see other editors now also contributing more frequently! Many thanks to all for all the help!

I'll have to do a count within a few weeks to see how many entries the project has now!

 

I've started cleaning up the pages:

• Linking to character page: We previously linked to a character's page by adding the interlink in the entries title. However, since the wiki has its new skin, the interlink in the title no longer displays, so I've started adding the interlink in the birth and death entries themselves, while removing them from the title.
• Numbers: For consistency with our other texts, I've changing the mentions of ages into words instead of numbers (so "five" instead of "5", etc).

 

While going through the pages, I've noticed a couple of things I would like to point out, and a few things I would like an opinion on from others.

To all editors:

• Minor edits: When adding a new entry, please do not tag the change as a "minor edit". Our Manual of Style defines "minor edit" as "a fix to a typo or small change that does not affect the page, with no summary required". Think of adding references, changing the order of text, etc. New entries are not minor edits
• References: please take care when writing down references. Place the reference after the point or comma (e.g., [text],{{Ref}}), not before. Please check if the reference is written down correctly. And place it in the correct place of the sentence. 
• Grammar: Please keep to the Manual of Style. Not "couldn't", but "could not". Not "hadn't", but "had not", etc. Additionally, please keep in mind the tense in which the entries are being written. Entries reflect most the past tense, as they describe births in years that have already been. Therefore, "couldn't be born" should be "couldn't have been born", etc. 
• Phrasing: Please keep phrasing consistent across all entries as much as is possible. 

 

Opinions on the following points would be much appreciated:

• Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).
• Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.
• Minimum age: The minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:
  • Most highborn girls have their first flowering at the age of twelve or thirteen (AGOT, Sansa 6). As twelve is the youngest age mentioned here, I think that should count as the minimum age.
  • Unwin Peake's daughter died in childbed at the age of twelve
  • Viserys II was married to Larra Rogare in 134 AC. As Viserys had been born in 122 AC, he had turned twelve the year of his marriage. Larra became pregnant by Viserys that same year. Even though she gave birth only the next year, the conception occurred when Viserys was twelve.
  • Sansa Stark was still twelve at her marriage (although she would have turned thirteen within a month time, so that argument is less strong).

Any opinions?

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@The Wondering Wolf, @Thomaerys Velaryon, and any others, no opinions to the above?

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).

Sure.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.

Links to other pages are usually unnecessary and only disturb the reading flow.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Minimum age: The minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:

Not sure about that one. These matches seem kind of unusual. So I guess most people would only wed at a later point.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen I understand your wish for more consistency in this project.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Numbers: For consistency with our other texts, I've changing the mentions of ages into words instead of numbers (so "five" instead of "5", etc). 

I'll do this way from now on.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).

Ok.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.

Interlinks can generally all be found on the character page, they don't add a great value when it comes to the calculations pages. I don't think they are necessary.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Minimum age: The minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:

I think it should stay at 13. Fire and Blood seems to emphasize the idea of marrying young girls being very risky (Jaehaerys didn't want a bedding at his first marriage because Alysanne was too young, Aemma Arryn being married early led to her death, ...).

 

I have also two things I want to discuss with you:

1. I have seen some characters ages being calculated on basis of them being knighted: the character is at least 14 turning 15 the year he receives his knighthood. If we continue to use this argument to calculate ages, shouldn't we make it an official rule ?

2. We also could be more consistent with the use of dates. Sometimes dates are used as interlinks (i.e. {{Date|50}} ) and sometimes they are used in text from (i.e. 50 AC).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I think it should stay at 13. Fire and Blood seems to emphasize the idea of marrying young girls being very risky (Jaehaerys didn't want a bedding at his first marriage because Alysanne was too young, Aemma Arryn being married early led to her death, ...).

Sure, most girls consummate their marriage on a later age than twelve. But we know of several characters (not many, but some) who had their first child at the age of twelve, meaning that for them, a calculation using thirteen as a minimum age would have given an incorrect result.

In addition, we have this:

"I'll get you with child as soon as you're able," Joffrey said as he escorted her across the practice yard. "If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?"

Sansa could not look at him, he shamed her so. "Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

If Martin establishes that most highborn girls will be able to have children from the age of twelve or thirteen onward, why would we ignore the twelve and go only with the thirteen? Regardless of the fact that most highborn girls in his story will have their first pregnancy at a later age, the point of the minimum age is to get the highest assurance that a character's real year of birth is included within the range the calculation gives.

 

On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I have also two things I want to discuss with you:

1. I have seen some characters ages being calculated on basis of them being knighted: the character is at least 14 turning 15 the year he receives his knighthood. If we continue to use this argument to calculate ages, shouldn't we make it an official rule ?

We could, but in that case, I would suggest adding the minimum age of knighthood in the same 'rule' as the minimum age for squires and pages.  I'll write one up

 

On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

2. We also could be more consistent with the use of dates. Sometimes dates are used as interlinks (i.e. {{Date|50}} ) and sometimes they are used in text from (i.e. 50 AC).

Still trying to figure out what the best option is here. Any suggestions?

[Tibbie]

Hi, I'm new here. I just wanted to clarify some things before I tried adding stuff to the calculations pages.

Rule #1 says 13 for a firstborn was chosen because of in-story marriage ages. Does this mean '13 at marriage' can be used for calculations? I can only find one entry (Lanna Lannister) that's used it.

Also, is there a final world whether we're sticking with 13 or changing it to 12? Don't want to add anything if it'll be wrong shortly. (Also, if it is changing, should my former question be: can '12 at marriage' be used for calculations?) 

Finally, the Donella Hornwood entry uses ~50 as the limits of childbearing age. Can that figure be used in calculations for others, or is it just a one-off?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 6/6/2019 at 3:52 AM, Tibbie said:

Hi, I'm new here. I just wanted to clarify some things before I tried adding stuff to the calculations pages.

Hi! I've updated the guidelines for the calculations and will incorporate these changes on the pages and calculations itself over the weekend.

Quote

Rule #1 says 13 for a firstborn was chosen because of in-story marriage ages. Does this mean '13 at marriage' can be used for calculations? I can only find one entry (Lanna Lannister) that's used it.

Updated to "conception and birth". At the birth of a first child, a character will be at least 12 years old.

On 6/6/2019 at 3:52 AM, Tibbie said:

Also, is there a final world whether we're sticking with 13 or changing it to 12? Don't want to add anything if it'll be wrong shortly. (Also, if it is changing, should my former question be: can '12 at marriage' be used for calculations?) 

I think it is best to use twelve, as it can be found on several occasions (listed in the guidelines". Most highborn girls can conceive rom age 12 or 13, we see a girl dying in childbirth at the age of twelve, and and we see a boy conceiving a child at the age of twelve. In my opinion, reasons enough not to use 13 as a minimum, but 12.

Quote

Finally, the Donella Hornwood entry uses ~50 as the limits of childbearing age. Can that figure be used in calculations for others, or is it just a one-off?

Donella states that she is "past [her] childbearing years", indicating she is either having her menopause, or has already experienced it.

The average age for menopause is 49/50-52 years, depending on the scientific study and keeping in mind that there are some factors (like ethnicity) can influence this to be a bit higher or lower.

The ASOIAF text states:

The Queen Regent Alyssa was forty-two years old, and thought to be past her childbearing years; (FAB - The Year of the Three Brides - 49 AC)

Queen Alyssa was with child. At forty-four years of age, the Dowager Queen had been thought to be well beyond her childbearing years, so her pregnancy was received as a miracle. (FAB - Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I)

Saddest of all was the loss of Princess Gael, the Winter Child, born in 80 AC when Queen Alysanne was forty-four and thought to be well past her childbearing years. (FAB - The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain)

This tells us that the Westerosi already consider 42 years old to be "past childbearing age" (but also that they are incorrect in thinking so). Considering that biology allows for a somewhat wider window of time, the modern age of menopause (end of female fertility) should be fine to use. As there is no one specific age for menopause, ~50 is used to show a rough maximum.

If you have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.

 

The range is used for Donella as text uses it as a hint towards her age. If it is relevant anywhere else, it could be used there as well.

[Tibbie]

Mostly I was thinking that if the ~50 figure it usable for others, we could calculate a minimum birth year for pretty much any mother character whose youngest (or any, really) child has a birth date (specifically a year of birth, or a minimum year).

For example: Lyarra Stark (Ned's mother). Her youngest, Benjen, was born in or after 267 AC. Taking 50, we could vaguely pinpoint her birth to in or after ~217 AC.

Also, is that a go ahead for minimum marriage age at 12? Or does it only apply to conceptions and births? Because if it's usable as a marriage figure, there's a few characters who we could pin a date for, just by the fact that their spouse has a death date (or a maximum possible death date).

For example: Robyn Ryswell married Jonnel 'One-Eye' Stark. He died between 157-209 AC, meaning they wed in 209 AC at latest. With a minimum marriage age of 12, Robyn would've been born in or before 197 AC.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 hours ago, Tibbie said:

Mostly I was thinking that if the ~50 figure it usable for others, we could calculate a minimum birth year for pretty much any mother character whose youngest (or any, really) child has a birth date (specifically a year of birth, or a minimum year).

For example: Lyarra Stark (Ned's mother). Her youngest, Benjen, was born in or after 267 AC. Taking 50, we could vaguely pinpoint her birth to in or after ~217 AC.

Hmm.. perhaps. It would indeed be the case that Lyarra, for example, could not have been born any later than that, so it would make sense to use it.

 

Quote

Also, is that a go ahead for minimum marriage age at 12? Or does it only apply to conceptions and births? Because if it's usable as a marriage figure, there's a few characters who we could pin a date for, just by the fact that their spouse has a death date (or a maximum possible death date).

The age of twelve is the minimum age for conception only. Marriage can occur on a wider range of ages. We've seen Ermesande Hayford marry at the age of one, and although it might not be the most common case, it certainly does happen.

Rohanne webber became a widow for the first time at the age of ten. Jaehaera Targaryen was 8 when she got married, Daenaera Velaryon six. "Arya Stark" was supposedly eleven when she married Ramsay Bolton.

 

Too many exceptions to name a minimum age for marriage.

 

[Tibbie]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Too many exceptions to name a minimum age for marriage.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

In the appendix from ACOK and ASOS, Rhaegar Frey is married to Jeyne Beesbury, the mother of his three children (Robert, Walda and Jonos). But in the appendix from AFFC Jeyne is now dead due to a wasting illness.

Can I use these information to mark early 300 AC as Jeyne's time of death in the wiki ?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

In the appendix from ACOK and ASOS, Rhaegar Frey is married to Jeyne Beesbury, the mother of his three children (Robert, Walda and Jonos). But in the appendix from AFFC Jeyne is now dead due to a wasting illness.

Can I use these information to mark early 300 AC as Jeyne's time of death in the wiki ?

She would have died at some point between the start of ASOS (in late 299 AC), and the start of Feast (in early 300 AC).

So, she would have died either late 299 AC or early 300 AC.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen @Tibbie

I relaunch the debate on the limits of childbearing age, particularly for Dorna Swyft.

We currently don't have an age calculation for her but we could create one:

She was handed over by her father, Ser Harys Swyft, to Ser Kevan Lannister when he couldn't pay back his loan to House Lannister. This event happened in between the return of Tywin and Kevan Lannister from the War of the Nine Penny Kings and the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt, so late 260 AC or early 261 AC. This indicates Dorna was born at the latest in 261 AC (though I doubt Kevan took a few months old baby as an hostage, so I'm guessing she was born a few years before that event).

By 266 AC, Dorna and Kevan were married. They will have four children together, the youngest being Janei Lannister (born in 296 or 297 AC).

We know for a certainty Dorna was born in 261 AC at the latest, making her at the mimimum 36 years old at the time of Janei's birth (if she was born in 297 AC).

Do you think we could apply the "50 years old equals the limit of chilbearing age" rule for Dorna ?

Therefore she would be born in or between 246 and 261 AC. For reference, her husband Ser Kevan was born in 244 AC.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

22 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen @Tibbie

I relaunch the debate on the limits of childbearing age, particularly for Dorna Swyft.

We currently don't have an age calculation for her but we could create one:

She was handed over by her father, Ser Harys Swyft, to Ser Kevan Lannister when he couldn't pay back his loan to House Lannister. This event happened in between the return of Tywin and Kevan Lannister from the War of the Nine Penny Kings and the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt, so late 260 AC or early 261 AC. This indicates Dorna was born at the latest in 261 AC (though I doubt Kevan took a few months old baby as an hostage, so I'm guessing she was born a few years before that event).

By 266 AC, Dorna and Kevan were married. They will have four children together, the youngest being Janei Lannister (born in 296 or 297 AC).

We know for a certainty Dorna was born in 261 AC at the latest, making her at the mimimum 36 years old at the time of Janei's birth (if she was born in 297 AC).

Do you think we could apply the "50 years old equals the limit of chilbearing age" rule for Dorna ?

Therefore she would be born in or between 246 and 261 AC. For reference, her husband Ser Kevan was born in 244 AC.

I think so. I agree with 261 AC in any case.

But keep in mind that it is not 50 that is a hard cut-off.

For the sake of consistency, I would suggest adding this text that has been added so similar calculations thusfar:

The Westerosi consider the age of forty-two to be "past [a woman's] childbearing years", and forty-four to be "well past her childbearing years",{{Ref|fab|The Year of the Three Brides - 49 AC}}{{Ref|fab|Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I}}{{Ref|fab|The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain}} although women of forty-four have been known to give birth to a child.{{Ref|fab|Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I}}{{Ref|fab|The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain}} In real-life, the end of a woman's fertile cycle (menopause) occurs at an age of 49-52 on average, giving ~52 as a maximum age for giving birth to a child.

So, Donnella would have been born, based on her daughter's age, no earlier than ~244 AC.

[The Wondering Wolf]

In 130 AC: More rivermen turned up the next day, led by Ser Garibald Grey, Lord Jon Charlton, and the new Lord of Raventree, the eleven-year-old Benjicot Blackwood.

Also in 130 AC: Benjicot Blackwood, the twelve-year-old Lord of Raventree, had come forth, as had the widowed Sabitha Frey, Lady of the Twins, with her father and brothers of House Vypren.

In 131 AC: To him gathered Benjicot Blackwood of Raventree, already a seasoned warrior at three-and-ten;

Also 131 AC: Bloody Ben, as his men had taken to calling him, was only thirteen, an age at which most highborn boys are still squires, grooming their master’s horses and scouring the rust from their mail.

So at the time of the Battle by the Lakeshore early in 130 he was 11, at the time of Second Tumbleton in the middle of 130 AC he was 12, when Elmo Tully calls his banner early in 131 AC, Benjicot is 13 and he is still 13 in the middle of the year. This just works with Benjicot being born early in 118 AC (as the MUSH states as well).

 

Then we can conclude that Elmo died in 131 AC (as the MUSH states), because he called his banners after Aegons II campaign in the crownlands early in 131 AC. I am not sure if we can tell when Grover died though. We would need the rough timing for Second Tumbleton and Aegon's II death.

[Nittanian]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, would this help with calculations for Stannis and Dragonstone?