The Wiki-Timeline Project v2

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

erhaps @Ran knows which of Willam Stark's marriages took place first? The one to Melantha Blackwood, or the one to Lyanne Glover?

Glover first, Blackwood second. They are indeed younger half-siblings.

[Tibbie]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

place her death earlier than 299 AC, that year would indeed be the max.

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

we can say he died at the maximum age of ~40, leaving some room for error

Okay, so I went ahead and put in Lyarra's death range, and calculated Beron's birth range. The latter of which had kind of a huge domino effect, leading to edits/additions for a lot of others.

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I've searched for a post somewhere that might state which marriage occurred first, but so far I have found nothing.

If it helps, the calculation only references the Stark Lineage family tree. Admittedly it places Lyanne Glover first, visually (as in the marriage line is higher up), but it also places Eddard's thing with Jon's mother higher even though it happened after he married Catelyn (it did happen after, right?), so I don't think that counts as solid evidence.

On a different topic, and sorry if this isn't the right place for it: when entering a date range in a character's infobox, do we do the {{Date|xxx|xxx}} thing so it reads as "In xxx–xxx AC", or keep the dates separate so it reads as "In or between xxx AC and xxx AC". Is there a rule for this?

[Tibbie]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Glover first, Blackwood second. They are indeed younger half-siblings.

Do you have some sort of evidence for that? Cause like I mentioned in the above post (sorry for double-posting btw), the calculation page only references the stark lineage tree, which doesn't work.

[Ran]

4 hours ago, Tibbie said:

Do you have some sort of evidence for that? Cause like I mentioned in the above post (sorry for double-posting btw), the calculation page only references the stark lineage tree, which doesn't work.

I have George's email where he told us all the information used to make the tree. 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Ran Do you also know the order of marriages for Jonnel Stark and Serena Stark ?

If I were to base myself on the TWOIAF lineage, I would say Jonnel married first Robyn Ryswell then his half-niece Sansa Stark, and Serena married first Jon Umber then her half-uncle Edric Stark, but I’m not sure.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Ran Do you also know the order of marriages for Jonnel Stark and Serena Stark ?

If I were to base myself on the TWOIAF lineage, I would say Jonnel married first Robyn Ryswell then his half-niece Sansa Stark, and Serena married first Jon Umber then her half-uncle Edric Stark, but I’m not sure.

Serena married Umber and then her uncle.

Jonnel married his niece and then Robyn Ryswell.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Serena married Umber and then her uncle.

Jonnel married his niece and then Robyn Ryswell.

Thank you for the clarification.

The only unknown left in the Stark lineage are the relations between King Torrhen and Lord Brandon (father-son ?), between Lords Edric, Ellard and Benjen (cousins, brothers ?) and between Lord Cregan and Lady Lynara (daughter of one of Cregan's three cousins ?).

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Thank you for the clarification.

The only unknown left in the Stark lineage are the relations between King Torrhen and Lord Brandon (father-son ?), between Lords Edric, Ellard and Benjen (cousins, brothers ?) and between Lord Cregan and Lady Lynara (daughter of one of Cregan's three cousins ?).

Lynara was a cousin by way of a younger son of Lord Brandon.

The rest, I can't really answer as GRRM did not get into that part of the family tree. That said, seems like 99.9% certain that he's a son, given that Torrhen had multiple of them.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Lynara was a cousin by way of a younger son of Lord Brandon.

Lord Brandon, you sure ? Lord Brandon had another son after Lord Walton and Lord Alaric ? If so, Lynara is a way more distant cousin from Lord Cregan than I thought.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Lord Brandon, you sure ?

Yep, that's what George said.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Lynara was a cousin by way of a younger son of Lord Brandon.

Do you remember if he had already decided back then that Alaric would continue the Stark line?

If Lynara is still meant to be a descendant of said younger son, that means there were more male Starks around during the Dance. Really interesting.

@Ran Did GRRM elaborate on the status of Jon Umber,Osric Umber, Robard Cerwyn and Harrold Rogers? Were they lords? And was Lorra Royce of the main or the younger line?

[Ran]

27 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Do you remember if he had already decided back then that Alaric would continue the Stark line?

Not discussed.

 

Quote

@Ran Did GRRM elaborate on the status of Jon Umber,Osric Umber, Robard Cerwyn and Harrold Rogers? Were they lords? And was Lorra Royce of the main or the younger line?

Umber was Lord of Last Hearth. Osric and Robard are described as "loyal lords". Harrold was a knight, not a lord. No information on Royce.

Also, a correction that I didn't realize was an issue, but obviously is: you guys didn't know that the Lord Brandon whom Lynara is descended from is _another_ Brandon, not the one who is father of Walton and Alaric. George distinguishes them as Brandon the Boisterous (from whom Lynara is descended via a younger son of his) and Brandon the Boastful (Walton's and Alaric's father). The boisterous one succeeded Torrhen and was almost certainly a son of his, while Brandon the Boastful succeeded a Lord Roderick Stark. 

Don't ask for other bynames or other details than the above, George just decided that with all the Brandons he definitely needed to give each one a byname to help keep them sorted.

[The Wondering Wolf]

That is a lot of new information. Trying to make sense out of that:

Torrhen had several sons. One of them was his successor Brandon the Boisterous. This Brandon had several sons, too (a younger one being the ancestor of Lynara). After Brandon the Boisterous came a Lord Roderick and after him Walton's and Alaric's father Brandon the Boastful. 

This means Roderick was a son of Brandon the Boisterous (otherwise there would not have been a male line descending from the Boisterous). But this also means that Brandon the Boastful was the son or brother of Roderick. 

 

First possibility:

Torrhen (born ~38 AC)

   Brandon the Boisterous (born ~22 AC)

      Roderick (born ~6 BC)

         Brandon the Boastful (born ~10 AC)

            Walton (born ~26 AC)

            Alaric (born ~27 AC)

               two Sons (born ~43 AC)

                  Edric (born ~60 AC)

 

This one does not really make sense because it is really compressed and Brandon the Boastful was an ailing guy in 49 AC.

Another one:

Torrhen (born ~40 AC)

   Brandon the Boisterous (born ~22 AC)

      Roderick (born ~4 BC)

      Brandon the Boastful (born ~1 BC)

         Walton (born ~20 AC)

         Alaric (born ~24 AC)

           two Sons (born ~42 AC)

               Edric (born ~60 AC)

Makes more sense to me.

[The Grey Wolf]

@The Wondering Wolf

Maybe Brandon the Boastful was the son of a younger brother Brandon the Boisterous who married before his older brother? Or maybe Brandon the Boustful is legitimized Brandon Snow? Or maybe the two Brandons were brothers? (I know GRRM avoids the RL habit of royals having multiple children with the same name outside of Aegon II and Aegon III but that is technically also a possibility.)

[The Wondering Wolf]

30 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Maybe Brandon the Boastful was the son of a younger brother Brandon the Boisterous who married before his older brother?

That was my first thought, too, but it does not work. Brandon the Boisterous had at least two sons. A younger one started a male branch that was still around a century later (since that is where Lynara descended from). So the main line must have continued through an older son, who might have been that Lord Roderick. Now Roderick's successor Brandon the Boastful could have been a son or a brother od Roderick, but in the end he must have been a descendent of the Boisterous.

40 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Or maybe Brandon the Boustful is legitimized Brandon Snow?

The Boastful is a descendant of the the Boisterous for sure, the Boisterous could have been Brandon Snow, but since Thorren had sons and Elio is very sure that the Boisterous was one of those, I do not think so.

[The Grey Wolf]

@The Wondering Wolf

If Torrhen was closer to fifty or sixty would that work?

[The Wondering Wolf]

@The Grey Wolf

I guess this way it works better. 

Torrhen (born ~49 AC)

   Brandon the Boisterous (born ~31 AC)

      Roderick (born ~13 BC)

         Brandon the Boastful (born ~5 AC)

            Walton (born ~23 AC)

            Alaric (born ~24 AC)

               two Sons (born ~42 AC)

                  Edric (born ~60 AC)

Still a bit compressed but more room for miscarriages and later marriages.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

Brandon the Boisterous: It makes sense since we know some of Torrhen's sons weren't keen on bending the knee to the Targaryens.

Quote

Though Torrhen Stark had given up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter, his sons were less glad of the Targaryen yoke, and some among them entertained talk of rebelling, and of raising the Stark banner whether Lord Torrhen consented or not.

TWOIAF, The North: The Lords of Winterfell

It all makes sense now why Aegon the Conqueror made six royal progresses in the North with Balerion during his reign. Aegon was definitively showing off his power to dissuade these would be rebels. Queen Rhaenys tried a calmer approach by making a match between Ronnel Arryn and Torrhen's daughter.

Brandon the Boastful: When we meet him at the Golden Wedding, he says to Jaehaerys "I see his grandsire in him". Aegon's approach worked in the end, maybe this Brandon like to boast his friendship to House Targaryen.

I don't know this is just speculation for now.

As far as timeline and lineage goes, I agree with @The Wondering Wolf.

[Tibbie]

15 hours ago, Ran said:

I have George's email where he told us all the information used to make the tree.

Thanks for clarifying! And I'm really jealous. So much interesting new information. Like this for example:

10 hours ago, Ran said:

Serena married Umber and then her uncle.

Jonnel married his niece and then Robyn Ryswell.

This is really useful actually, because I can use to pin down a maximum years of death for Umber and Sansa.

I only have two queries. First, does the info you have on the tree also mention whether Brandon (Cregan's son) had his affair with Wylla before or after he married Alys Karstark?

Second, for whoever might have the answer: how do I reference this email of George's in calculations? Is there a copy of it posted online somewhere to link to, or if not, is okay to just reference the applicable forum comment above?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

11 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

I can use to pin down a maximum years of death for Umber and Sansa.

Already done

11 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

how do I reference this email of George's in calculations? Is there a copy of it posted online somewhere to link to, or if not, is okay to just reference the applicable forum comment above?

For the references, we put a link in the wiki pages to the appropriate comment made by Ran on the forum.