The Wondering Wolf Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, Tibbie said: Second, for whoever might have the answer: how do I reference this email of George's in calculations? Is there a copy of it posted online somewhere to link to, or if not, is okay to just reference the applicable forum comment above? I am still not sure if you are aware that Ran is Elio García, co-author of the World of Ice and Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, Tibbie said: First, does the info you have on the tree also mention whether Brandon (Cregan's son) had his affair with Wylla before or after he married Alys Karstark? Before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said: Brandon the Boastful: When we meet him at the Golden Wedding, he says to Jaehaerys "I see his grandsire in him". Aegon's approach worked in the end, maybe this Brandon like to boast his friendship to House Targaryen. Brandon the Boastful might have been lord when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC, so he would have dealt both with Aegon I and Jaehaerys I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbie Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: I am still not sure if you are aware that Ran is Elio García, co-author of the World of Ice and Fire. Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 12 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Brandon the Boastful might have been lord when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC, so he would have dealt both with Aegon I and Jaehaerys I. Yeah that's what I was thinking. This Brandon probably helped settle the post-Conquest tensions between the Starks and Targaryens at the end of Aegon I's reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, Tibbie said: Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.) No worries! Good to be cautious when people say things that you don't know how to verify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tibbie said: Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.) It's alright, just wanted to make sure that you know there is no reason for further sources when infos come from him. Something else: Apparently GRRM has a small family tree for the Umbers. Since Mors was born no later than 236 AC, I think we can place the birth of Greatjon's father around 230 and Hoarfrost's around 210 AC. Hoarfrost's father might have been Lord Harmond (born around 190 AC) and that would fit with Arrana Stark and Osric Umber being Harmond's parents. Not sure about the relation of Osric and Serena's Jon Umber, though. Jon did not have any children with Serena or after her (since he died first). Maybe he had a wife before and Osric was a grandson, or Osric was a nephew by a younger brother. But Jon could have been the lord in charge during the great mêlée in 170 AC. @Ran Are there any more hints in the notes regarding the Umbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Are there any more hints in the notes regarding the Umbers? Afraid not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ran said: Afraid not. Too sad. Somehow I am really thrilled that GRRM created the family trees like the appendices of the books. Since you can tell that Brandon fathered Lonny before his marriage, did GRRM even present dates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 8 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Too sad. Somehow I am really thrilled that GRRM created the family trees like the appendices of the books. Since you can tell that Brandon fathered Lonny before his marriage, did GRRM even present dates? No dates for marriages or births, no. George just wrote that Lonny was born first and later Brandon married someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Not sure about the relation of Osric and Serena's Jon Umber, though. Jon did not have any children with Serena or after her (since he died first). Maybe he had a wife before and Osric was a grandson, or Osric was a nephew by a younger brother. But Jon could have been the lord in charge during the great mêlée in 170 AC. For now I'm going with Osric as being Jon's nephew, thus making the couple Arrana and Osric first cousin. I don't know what stories GRRM has in my mind for the latter part of Cregan's rule and the troublesome rule of his sons after him, but with the information we have it sure looks fun. I'm particularly interested to see the Stark-Manderly-Umber dynamics play out. * Lord Torrhen Manderly marrying his daughter? Jeyne to Cregan's heir, Rickon Stark. This is interesting that both Houses had a prospect of marriage with House Targaryen, but none happened in the end. Then important members of these Houses end up marrying each other. Also, Mushroom is most likely still at the Merman's Court at the moment of Rickon and Jeyne's betrothal, so I'm expecting other fun sides stories from him in the future. * Rickon Stark dying at Sunspear in the Conquest of Dorne. As Rickon's eldest daughter, Serena Stark should have inherited Winterfell after Cregan's death but instead it passed to Jonnel Stark. So either Cregan outlived his granddaughter and her children were deemed to young to rule and Jonnel took over instead or Cregan did not want a woman to succeed him (which might explain the two weird unle-niece marriages). Either way, it sounds like a fun read. Osric Umber and Robard Cerwyn the so called "loyal lords" were most likely supporter of Serena/Serena's children's claim to Winterfell. * Cregan and Aemon the Dragonknight dueling for some reason. Given the big difference of age (28 years), I'm guessing it happened during a joust/mêlée in the North or at King's Landing. * Speaking of mêlée, the great mêlée at the Last Hearth of 170 AC was probably a big deal. I'm guessing either Lord Jon or Lord Osric Umber hosted it. I'm wondering if Barthogan "Blacksword" Stark didn't earn his nickname by killing people during this event, maybe he "accidentally" killed his older brother Edric and therefore set himself as Jonnel's heir. In summary, we have not enough information to know for sure what happened during the latter half of Cregan's rule, but we have enough to make a few educated guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 @Ran, thanks for the new Stark info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbie Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 3:56 AM, Ran said: Harrold was a knight, Just to clarify, definitely past tense? Or am I reading too much into that. (Thought I better check first before adding death calculation for him.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Tibbie said: Just to clarify, definitely past tense? Or am I reading too much into that. (Thought I better check first before adding death calculation for him.) Making too much of it. George just said he was Ser Harrold. He did not provide any info on death dates for any of these folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 I think the birth dates of the Four Storms could be determined with more accuracy. We know the fourth and last sister, Floris Baratheon was fourteen years old in 132, placing her birth in 118. And in 129, when negotiating a match with Aemond One-Eye, Borros says implies none of them has flowered yet (Choose any one you like. Cass is oldest, she’ll be first to flower, but Floris is prettier.) In 129 Floris would have been 11. If we make Ellyn 12, Maris 13 and Cassandra 14, we get to the upper limit were a girl should have had flowered (the wiki guidelines state that most highborn girls have their first flowering at the age of twelve or thirteen). So I think those ages (one year up or down) should be accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, The hairy bear said: We know the fourth and last sister, Floris Baratheon was fourteen years old in 132, placing her birth in 118. Are we sure Floris is the youngest sister ? We know Cassandra was the eldest and Maris the second eldest, but I don't think we know if Floris and Ellyn were third or fourth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 @Thomaerys Velaryon I would infer that Floris is the younger from a quote in FIB when we are told that Lady Elenda "sent her daughters Cassandra, Ellyn, and Floris to represent House Baratheon." I think that, in this context, it would be weird not to name them in birth order. But it's not an absolute confirmation, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 On the other hand, one would expect the elder sister to marry first, and that seems to have been Floris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 4 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: On the other hand, one would expect the elder sister to marry first, and that seems to have been Floris. Yeah. For what it is worth Blood of Dragons has this order: Cassandra (114), Maris (116), Floris (117) and then Ellyn (119). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 I noticed that, too. The dates of birth seem to be a bit off, though. It is very unlikely that both Cassandra and Maris had not flowered in 129, if they had been born 114 and 116 respectively. So I would guess Cassandra was born in 116 and Maris in 117, but I don't think we have enough proof for that in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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