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Rhaenys_Targaryen

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On 3/15/2020 at 11:17 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I've searched for a post somewhere that might state which marriage occurred first, but so far I have found nothing.

Perhaps @Ran knows which of Willam Stark's marriages took place first? The one to Melantha Blackwood, or the one to Lyanne Glover?

 

Hmm.. I'd think so. Perhaps, as we do not know how long he lingered, we can say he died at the maximum age of ~40, leaving some room for error?

 

Yes. If there's nothing that can definitely place her death earlier than 299 AC, that year would indeed be the max. We know that Benjen was her youngest child, and that Benjen was born in 267 AC or later, meaning that Lyarra died in 267 AC or after.

In that sense, we have a range of death for Lyarra. It's just a rather large one. :) 

Shouldn't we consider Lyarra to have died before Ned's children and Jon were at Winterfell? None of them have any memories of grandmother Lyarra, nor does Catelyn. They all have memories of Old Nan though.

Furthermore, Catelyn is referenced as Lady of Winterfell from the moment she lived in Winterfell, I think. She wouldn't have that yet, I think if Lyarra had been still alive.

And then we have the reference that Benjen had to remain at Winterfell during RR "for there must always be a Stark at Winterfell": Lyarra wasn't just named Stark by marriage. She was born a Stark. So if she had been alive, she could have served as the Stark at Winterfell, instead of Benjen. That Benjen had to remain, implies she was no longer alive anymore.

So, I think a range between Benjen's year of birth and Robert's Rebellion would be more accurate.

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14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

On the other hand, one would expect the elder sister to marry first, and that seems to have been Floris.

In any case, Floris would have married before Cassandra. So we can be assured that birth order was not respected in that matter.

I would imagine that just as Aemond had been given given a choice among Borros' four daughters, Thaddeus Rowan had his pick and chose Floris. She was the prettiest, after all. :)

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I meant that when Floris married Thaddeus Rowan in 132 AC, both Cassandra and Ellyn were unmarried. So the fact that Floris married before Ellyn wouldn't be an indication that she was elder than her, because Cass was the eldest of the sisters.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, I think a range between Benjen's year of birth and Robert's Rebellion would be more accurate.

While I agree with your take, we can't simply base our birth/death year calculations on something that isn't said in the books. Just because George does not mentioned her, does not necessary mean she wasn't there. Also Catelyn would have been called the Lady of Winterfell since the day she married Ned at Riverrun no matter if Lyarra was still around or not (Lyarra would have become the Dowager Lady of Winterfell).

@The hairy bear @The Wondering Wolf

It seems like this little discussion about refining the range of birth year for the Four Storms has been inconclusive.

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17 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

While I agree with your take, we can't simply base our birth/death year calculations on something that isn't said in the books. Just because George does not mentioned her, does not necessary mean she wasn't there. Also Catelyn would have been called the Lady of Winterfell since the day she married Ned at Riverrun no matter if Lyarra was still around or not (Lyarra would have become the Dowager Lady of Winterfell).

@The hairy bear @The Wondering Wolf

It seems like this little discussion about refining the range of birth year for the Four Storms has been inconclusive.

I get that most arguments counts as "absence of evidenc", but the Benjen as Stark at Winterfell seems positive evidence to me.

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On 5/2/2020 at 1:13 AM, The hairy bear said:

I think the birth dates of the Four Storms could be determined with more accuracy.

We know the fourth and last sister, Floris Baratheon was fourteen years old in 132, placing her birth in 118. And in 129, when negotiating a match with Aemond One-Eye, Borros says implies none of them has flowered yet (Choose any one you like. Cass is oldest, she’ll be first to flower, but Floris is prettier.)

In 129 Floris would have been 11. If we make Ellyn 12, Maris 13 and Cassandra 14, we get to the upper limit were a girl should have had flowered (the wiki guidelines state that most highborn girls have their first flowering at the age of twelve or thirteen). So I think those ages (one year up or down) should be accurate.

It is true that most girls will flower for the first time at the age of 12 or 13. 

As Cassandra had not yet flowered in 129 AC,  we cannot say that she had not yet turned 12/13 years of age, as "most" does not mean "all". But, we could perhaps use it, by taking the 12 or 13 years of age as a 'rough minimum'.

The other limit is clearer. As we know that Floris was born in 118 AC, and that Cassandra was the eldest and Maris was the second born daughter, we can say that Cassandra had been born at least by 116 AC, if not earlier, as she would have been at least 16 years old in 132 AC. 

Not yet having reached the age of menarche in 129 AC would make her "roughly" ~12/13 or younger in 129 AC, which would place her birth in ~117 AC/116 AC. As we know that 117 AC is not a possibility (due to Floris' age), we could take her not having flowered yet in 129 AC as an indication that she had been born in 116 AC or several years before.

Otherwise, the only max limit we have is that in 133 AC, Cassandra was not yet 30.

 

Opinions would be appreciated :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Concerning Myriah Martell's death

In The Hedge Knight, Dunk and Egg discuss the appearance of Prince Baelor Targaryen and Egg says the following:

Quote

"It's said he favors his mother," the boy reminded him. "She was a Dornish princess."

Egg is telling to Dunk his grandmother came from Dorne thus explaining Baelor's appearance. But could we also take this "was" as a proof of Myriah's passing by 209 AC ?

If so, Myriah Martell would have died in or between 184 AC and 209 AC.

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  • 2 months later...

Is it general concensus that the ages given in the Storm of Swords Appendix are for the beginning of the book, i.e. 299 AC?

It's just that with at least one or two characters being younger in the text than in the appendices, I'd have thought that the ages could only be confirmed for somewhere in the book, not necessarily the beginning.

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On 8/12/2020 at 10:14 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Could you clarify who these characters are?

The Game of Thrones Appendix puts Myrcella as 8 years old, but in Jon I, he thinks that she is 'not quite eight', which would mean seven.

In the Clash of Kings Appendix Shireen is down as 10 years old, but in the Prologue Cressen thinks that she will be 'ten on her next name day', which means she's nine right then.

It could also be argued that since Joffrey only turns 13 years old in the second chapter of Clash of Kings, he's actually twelve at the beginning of the book, while the Appendix says thirteen.

Also in the Clash of Kings Appendix Larence Snow is said to be 12, but in Bran II, either Bran or the Glover steward say that he's 'near twelve', which to me means eleven. It could mean around twelve, but I'd expect the steward at least to know it definitely.

There could be others, but that's all could find right now. :)

EDIT: There's also Arya in A Feast for Crows, who, in Arya I, thinks that she is almost eleven, which means she's still ten. But the Appendix says that she is eleven.

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Passing this thread on Twitter on that someone pointed to, as she tried to figure out some details about Edmure, Cat, Lysa, and Minisa independently and seems to have come up with some additional conclusions that may be useful for the wiki:

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Passing this thread on Twitter on that someone pointed to, as she tried to figure out some details about Edmure, Cat, Lysa, and Minisa independently and seems to have come up with some additional conclusions that may be useful for the wiki:

Not feeling entirely compentent to answer here, but I saw this and had a look at the thread. And while it's certainly interesting, I feel like all the 'calculations' are based almost entirely on guesswork and what years felt right to the author of that thread. Well, and the fact that medieval squires were usually at least fourteen. But it's been proven that ASoIaF squires can be quite a bit younger, so that's not exactly an argument either...

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@Alyx Rivers

You are right, apparently there are a few cases where the age the appendix states is not the age the character has already reached at the beginning of the book. As far as I can see there is no real contradiction, though, or am I wrong?

And I fully agree with your assessment on the Twitter thread. Much guesswork and few hard facts.

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6 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

You are right, apparently there are a few cases where the age the appendix states is not the age the character has already reached at the beginning of the book. As far as I can see there is no real contradiction, though, or am I wrong?

There is no contradiction in the books as far as I can tell, no. But my issue is actually with something else.

In the Wiki birth year calculations quite a few of the calculations point out that a characters is x age in the SoS appendix, which is then taken to mean that they were x age in 299 AC, since that's when the book begins. But with these characters I pointed out having an age in the appendix that certainly appears somewhere in the book, just not necessarily in the beginning, I'm not sure that that's a valid argument.

For example the Jonelle Cerwyn calculation says that Jonelle is 32 in both 299 AC and 300 AC and must therefore have been born in 267 AC. But her being 32 in 299 AC is based on the SoS appendix, which might not refer to the beginning of the book and therefore not to 299 AC, but to 300 AC. At least that's the way I see it.

Even more of a problem is the Larence Snow calculation. It claims that Larence is 'near twelve' in 299 AC (CoK, Bran II), twelve in 299 AC (CoK, Appendix) and thirteen in late 299 AC (SoS, Appendix). Which either means that my reading of 'near twelve' as eleven is incorrect, because otherwise this would mean Larence is 11, 12 and 13 in 299 AC... Or that Larence' age in the SoS appendix isn't for the beginning of the book in 299 AC, but for later. In which case, he would be eleven turning twelve in 299 AC and twelve turning thirteen in 300 AC, and therefore born in 287 AC. And not in 286 AC like the calculation claims.

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@Nittanian That seems likely. But... I'm not sure what your point is?

Because if you're refering to the topic I raised, then that's sort of the complete opposite.

In your example, Myrcella is nine in the appendix and nine plus one year somewhere in the book.

In my examples, the people are one age in the appendix and that age minus one year somewhere in the book.

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